What is the meaning of the state in which the direwolves were discovered?

[Mladen]

Well just for the fact of how the mother Direwolf came south in the first place which is a thing me and my aunt debate.

Also Bloodraven tells Bran he has been watching him since the day he was born even down to the detail he first walked and his first word and Bloodraven says he even watched his dad Ned as well.

I believe Bloodraven sent the Direwolf to the Stark children to help them as they must be the key to help against the others. Especially Jon who is at the wall, Ghost blends in perfectly with snow and the way Jon compares Ghost to the old gods is just idk..it gets me thinking

Again, I am talking about encounter between Jon and Ghost, and there is nothig for us to believe BR was involved in any way. Perhaps he has something to do with bringing direwolf mother South of the Wall, but this was warging.

[Silent_Hero]

Again, I am talking about encounter between Jon and Ghost, and there is nothig for us to believe BR was involved in any way. Perhaps he has something to do with bringing direwolf mother South of the Wall, but this was warging.

Well when they were gathered up there everyone find the pups and they leave then Jon who is halfway across a bridge hears something goes back to the same exact spot and plucks up Ghost, I just like to the think Bloodraven used that exact moment to warg into Ghost to make him cry out so Jon would take him.

Again there are much, much better posts about this out there in the forums than my rehashed version.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well when they were gathered up there everyone find the pups and they leave then Jon who is halfway across a bridge hears something goes back to the same exact spot and plucks up Ghost, I just like to the think Bloodraven used that exact moment to warg into Ghost to make him cry out so Jon would take him.

Again there are much, much better posts about this out there in the forums than my rehashed version.

Ghost is mute. As such he couldn't "cry out" even if Bloodraven wanted him too. That's why he's, you know, mute and that's also a big reason to believe that something other than "sound" was going on to make Jon know that Ghost was there. Jon, not knowing how he knew about it, might describe it as "sound," for lack of a better term and not knowing yet that he's a warg, but the wolf is MUTE.

[Black Crow]

Agreed. There was no "active" warging as we know it involved at this stage. Jon was just unconsciously sensing the link.

ETA: as to the missing stag, look at how the murder weapon is described; "a foot of shattered antler, the tines snapped off". Its not a piece of antler that has broken off in the soft fleshy throat. That in itself is improbable without also snapping the tines off. This is a dagger, like the (antler?) bone one carried by Val.

[Yukle]

Ghost is mute. As such he couldn't "cry out" even if Bloodraven wanted him too. That's why he's, you know, mute and that's also a big reason to believe that something other than "sound" was going on to make Jon know that Ghost was there. Jon, not knowing how he knew about it, might describe it as "sound," for lack of a better term and not knowing yet that he's a warg, but the wolf is MUTE.

This is a really minor point, but I've always wondered: Is Ghost always silent because he doesn't want to make a sound or because he actually can't? He's silent even when he snarls, and that's almost impossible for a dog. It makes no difference to the story, unless there's some climactic moment when Jon is fighting the Night's King and then Ghost howls or something, but I don't think GRRM is that corny. :P

But yeah, I've often wondered whether Ghost's silence is his choice.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is a really minor point, but I've always wondered: Is Ghost always silent because he doesn't want to make a sound or because he actually can't? He's silent even when he snarls, and that's almost impossible for a dog. It makes no difference to the story, unless there's some climactic moment when Jon is fighting the Night's King and then Ghost howls or something, but I don't think GRRM is that corny. :P

But yeah, I've often wondered whether Ghost's silence is his choice.

Would a wolf have a biological "choice" in that matter? To be honest I typically think of Ghost's muteness as evidence for what I suggested — that something deeper than "sound" drew Jon to him.

[BaseBornBastard]

Why?

I was thinking along the lines that if the separation of the wolf pups foreshadowed the separation of the Stark children, then the death of a certain wolf would foreshadow the death of a certain Stark child.

[Yukle]

Would a wolf have a biological "choice" in that matter? To be honest I typically think of Ghost's muteness as evidence for what I suggested — that something deeper than "sound" drew Jon to him.

Yeah, probably. And by "choice" I meant I wonder if Ghost is completely capable of making sounds, has a working larynx and can bark, snarl, howl and growl as much as he likes but just doesn't feel like it or whether he actually cannot ever even if he wanted to.

ETA: I don't really care that much, I just wonder. It's more likely he's disabled in some way and can't make sounds than just doesn't feel like it, though.

[unSonofStannis]

I just took it to mean that the "adults" of Houses Baratheon and Stark would fall together (both the stag and the mother direwolf were killed), leaving the direwolf pups (the Stark kids) to have to fend for themselves.

:agree:

[unSonofStannis]

However if this is to represent the fall of the Starks and the Baratheons then shouldn't there have been more than one stag to represent Stannis and Robert's bastards?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

However if this is to represent the fall of the Starks and the Baratheons then shouldn't there have been more than one stag to represent Stannis and Robert's bastards?

It could equally just refer to Robert and Ned. It's the Stark kids who are supernaturally gifted, hence, direwolves and not stag fawns.

[Mladen]

I was thinking along the lines that if the separation of the wolf pups foreshadowed the separation of the Stark children, then the death of a certain wolf would foreshadow the death of a certain Stark child.

Lady died in the first book, and Sansa survived five. Lady`s death symbolizes something else, not foreshadoeing Sansa`s death.

[FittleLinger]

Ghost's muteness is there for us to wonder, IMO. How did Jon hear him? And by the time we've realized Ghost is a mute, then we have quite a few warging experiences we've read about, so we understand - that should be how, the first subconscious warging.

Also, if BR is warging Mormont's raven, which I think is the case, then everybody hears him, not only Jon (well, by everybody I mean Mormont too).

It wouldn't make sense for BR to warg a mute animal in order to draw attention with a sound. It would be like warging a fish in these circumstances.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Ghost's muteness is there for us to wonder, IMO. How did Jon hear him? And by the time we've realized Ghost is a mute, then we have quite a few warging experiences we've read about, so we understand - that should be how, the first subconscious warging.

Also, if BR is warging Mormont's raven, which I think is the case, then everybody hears him, not only Jon (well, by everybody I mean Mormont too).

It wouldn't make sense for BR to warg a mute animal in order to draw attention with a sound. It would be like warging a fish in these circumstances.

sexy name

[lakin1013]

I tend to think that Ghost is a gift to Jon from his mother, Lyanna. The other Stark children (Ned and Catelyn's children) all get a wolf from the pile of small dwolves. Jon's is separate, meant only for him as he is the only one who hears/sees/finds it. It obviously marks Jon as separate and it foreshadows his path through the story, not only actually but metaphorically as well. Even the muteness-- many times we see Jon thinking he has no 'claim,' no 'birthright' to things or events or roles, so he stays mute. Ghost IS mute.

[Bushido]

Jon's heard a noise, as he describes it in AGoT. And contrary to the popular opinion, Ghost wasn't cast away. He wandered on his own. (as said in ADwD) Cast away = Ned's opinion.

In ACoK, during Jon's first warg dream, Ghost gives a long cry expecting an answer. Now, even though Jon's warg dream and Bran's "intervention" are colliding into single experience it is possible that Ghost is deliberately silent. However, the only certain reality is that once Bran pushes Jon into Ghost = and Wildings he sees. The forest and the cry prior to the sapling growing and smell of death might be a part of Bran's doing, therefore not part of Jon's warging experience. Even still, why would Ghost cry even though he can't? Because mute wolves dream they can howl? :) (even Summer recognises Ghost as silent brother, not flawed brother who can't prove his lupine self by not being able to howl)

[FittleLinger]

Jon's heard a noise, as he describes it in AGoT. And contrary to the popular opinion, Ghost wasn't cast away. He wandered on his own. (as said in ADwD) Cast away = Ned's opinion.

In ACoK, during Jon's first warg dream, Ghost gives a long cry expecting an answer. Now, even though Jon's warg dream and Bran's "intervention" are colliding into single experience it is possible that Ghost is deliberately silent. However, the only certain reality is that once Bran pushes Jon into Ghost = and Wildings he sees. The forest and the cry prior to the sapling growing and smell of death might be a part of Bran's doing. Even still, why would Ghost cry even though he can't? Because mute wolves dream they can howl? :) (even Summer recognises Ghost as silent brother, not flawed brother who can't prove his lupine self by not being able to howl)

Eh, I think a wolf can tell the difference between something that makes sounds and something that doesn't, but not the reason (mute is more like a scientific/biological explanation if you will). You know, just like swords are iron claws for wolves, I think it would be weird to use the word mute through a wolf POV. (Half-jokingly - the crew of the ship "Silence" is also silent, but we know the reason...)

Also, albinism, heterochromia, and other color-related anomalies are often associated with deafness (and hence probably muteness) in animals. I know it's a magical/gift from the gods wolf in a fantasy novel, but I really don't think he chooses to be silent.

[Bushido]

Yes,I had in mind both the albinism and Ghost's agitation at the end of ADwD vs Grey Wind before the wedding. If ever, Ghost'd howl before the stabbing, one would think. (Ghost could be exceptionally collected, otoh :D)

But, what to make of the dream then? You have to admit it gives some room for debating.

[FittleLinger]

Yes,I had in mind both the albinism and Ghost's agitation at the end of ADwD vs Grey Wind before the wedding. If ever, Ghost'd howl before the stabbing, one would think. (Ghost could be exceptionally collected, otoh :D)

But, what to make of the dream then? You have to admit it gives some room for debating.

Yes, I admit it does. I don't have the quote handy, but does it actually say he was "expecting and answer"? I think he tries to howl but doesn't realize he's simply not making any sound.

[Bushido]

I don't have an English copy with me :(

He gave a cry, "pricked up ears" waiting for an answer. (this much I am sure)

ETA: I have audiobooks, I always forget :D give me a few minutes.