The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK

[Lummel]

...I agree with you, but I think this attitude towards Ned's belief is contrasted with what Jon perceives from the weirwood. While others are commenting about the size and the face Jon specifically points out that it is a powerful tree because he could feel it. None of the others commented about this comment am not mistaken. Am still unsure what to make of Jon feeling the power flowing from the tree. Did he felt ti because of himself or perhaps because there was something in the tree reaching out for him? Perhaps someone ccare to venture a guess...

one thing that strikes me is that is about building atmosphere. GRRM can describe the tree but having Jon tells us his feelings about it adds a layer to that. We feel the tree radiating power too.

This is an experience at the boundary of the magical and the religious. Something to be felt.

...the oddity of these two referring to their father's beliefs rather than their own. Fathers harkens back in time which fits with the awe at the age of this tree and also refers back to the old knowledge that has been forgotten. This is a double edged sword-- they need to relearn the lessons of their much older ancestors because their recent ancestors have failed in passing it down. Part of this musing about the legend I think is about not being sure of their fathers' wisdom given the walking dead that were supposed to be only a child's tale.

...

Jon flexed his fingers for the first time just before getting Longclaw which is very tied to family with the fatherhood meaning embodied in the sword as we've already covered. He flexes them again after almost running Sam down to ride off to meet Robb which is another family concern. Then he flexed them last chapter after Mormont asks him if he can wield Longclaw and right before the history lesson on Kings leading up to his question about keeping his vows with Robb as a King. This quote above where Jon's flexing his fingers as an expectation or preparation for combat or conflict originates. I had forgotten that mussing Arya's hair was intertwined with the origin of this meaningful gesture that will persist right up until his stabbing. I had also never realized that it had a family correlation before. I think this is something to look out for as we proceed to see if the pattern continues. I wonder if that finger flexing gesture will also work as a stand in for wanting to muss Arya's hair...

Yes I think the fingers are important "touch has a memory" as the poet wrote, its a gesture and a drifting thought that gives Jon depth to his characterisation. This isn't just a cut out hero in a storybook riding out to do hero stuff. It is a day dream memory, a very everyday loose association, but also functions to tie two physically separated characters together. It adds to our sense of them as a family and their dynamic - we can't imagine one of the current Lannisters thinking something like that.

The point about fathers is good. There's this sense of a previous golden age when the ancestors knew things, had a direct contact to a different side of life. The men present here don't have that direct connection. It's been mediated to them by fairy tales. They have a sense of awe and unease but not the faith/knowledge of their fathers. What little they have experienced is at odds with the life they led south of the Wall.

(Also, Thoren Smallwood, which relation to the current Lord and Lady Smallwood? Lord Smallwood's tent was last seen by Arya outside the Twins at the Red Wedding, and his liege lord Vance bent the knee.)

oh, well spotted, a smallwood in the haunted forest.

While this is indeed possible and struck me as well, the name could also just be because well, there is a huge Weirwood, which is a White tree, and it's pretty eye catching since it's so large. /channels Lummel :P

Well naturally I agree with myself but iirc don't those white trees in LOTR also have a mystical element to them? Those trees are symbolically/magically/divinely tied to the health of the ruling house and probably a bunch of other stuff I've forgotten or not seen in volume umpteen of the posthumous Tolkien publications. The significant white tree seems a nice nod to old Tolkien.

There could be a wide range of sacred tree stories feeding into GRRM's weirwoods, I suppose that is something we can add to the reread or maybe it would fit better in a Bran reread :dunno:

...based on the theory that if someone says something and is sure as hell of it, the opposite is often true. In this chapter, we have the example of Sam teaching the birds to talk.

Which I think we can be fairly certain isn't at all true, since the raven says *a lot* of things worth hearing.

The exchange I am thinking of is in Jon I and it's Mormont speaking apropos Kings, ruling and serving the realm (again interesting in light of Stannis "I had the cart before the horse" speech later. A "true king" serves the realm?)

A couple of things stand out.

1. Eerily similar to MMD's prophecy about Dany and her not bearing a living child, no? ...

2. Robb's fate became so very different. He never married a princess, wasn't draped in all that stuff, and when Walder Frey called him "Your Grace" it was not in the normally intended way, but as the King who lost the North and at Robb's own murder.

3. Live and die in black ringmail, as it happens, black was also Rhaegar's preferred colour when it came to armour. And he died with black armour on, (and I assume, with his black boots on too, like a true hero )...

hmm. I suppose it is all about reader expectations isn't it? Character who appears to know what they are talking about says one thing. We expect it to be true and right. Then at a later stage GRRM can surprise us and say - a-ha! Bet you didn't see that coming!

Though we had a discussion on the kingsroad as the road not taken I suppose the point could be, in line with the poem, that it was not taken at that time. Or in line with the king of the wildlings theory - what is a king? Is a king somebody who has their head on a coin has been anointed with sacred oils and lives in a big old palace or is a person who is acclaimed as chief leader and does the job of the king (protecting the realm, being nice to widows and orphans etc)?

Child of your own blood is a gloriously elusive phrase - after all The Ned describes Jon to Catelyn as being of his blood - not his son but of his blood. By that standard then if Jon was to cuddle Rickon he would have a child of his blood in his arms... :) Or in other shocking news - don't trust that GRRM! He's sneaky!

The forest and the travel before seem to have defied and layered up what Jon and the NW knew before the ranging. As Jon himself states Nothing was what he had expected. And nothing draws the line between expectations/reality and the known/unfamiliar more clearly than these Heart tree.

Before the departure Jon finds certain solace in the idea that his Gods will be waiting. Yet when he gazes at one of this Old Gods he is disturbed by its appearance, specially the mouth...

Good observation. It parallels the reversal in Sam. The treatment of the old gods is typical of GRRM. We're given some information but as the story progresses we're led deeper in, given contrasting or conflicting data, encouraged to be critical or come to a broader understanding. If in AGOT we had the sense that the old gods were not cuddly, here even the form of reverence is disturbing.

...but I will also add that Jon’s disposition to bring out his father’s belief about the Heart trees seems to stem from a way of coping with his own unreadiness. Like everything else, the Old Gods are not what he expected to find so he finds a way to take what he is seeing (the disturbing Heart tree) to a place he understands- his father. Driving comfort or reassurance from his father’s memory is something we will see time and time again in Jon’s future chapters, whereas in AGOT thinking about him was often a source of conflict for him...

interesting!

[Julian Rayne]

Do we know how followers of the Old Gods are "instructed" in their religion? They don't have septons and sermons to teach them so it's a fair assumption that they learn from their parents. When Jon and Mormont say "my father told me ____" it's just the equivalent of "the septons say ____".

Additionally Jon uses his religion and northern culture as both a link to his father and anchor points for his identity. He feels pleased when Tyrion tells him that he has a more Northern look than his siblings and when he prays or thinks of the Old Gods he identifies them as the "Gods of his father".

[Ragnorak]

...

Before the departure Jon finds certain solace in the idea that his Gods will be waiting. Yet when he gazes at one of this Old Gods he is disturbed by its appearance, specially the mouth:

Does he, at this point appreciates and is ready to confront the fact that there is much he doesn’t know about his own religion? I think not. I know Ragnorak already offer an interpretation as to why Jon thinks of the legend, but I will also add that Jon’s disposition to bring out his father’s belief about the Heart trees seems to stem from a way of coping with his own unreadiness. Like everything else, the Old Gods are not what he expected to find so he finds a way to take what he is seeing (the disturbing Heart tree) to a place he understands- his father. Driving comfort or reassurance from his father’s memory is something we will see time and time again in Jon’s future chapters, whereas in AGOT thinking about him was often a source of conflict for him.

Going back to the tree, the presence of the bones inside the heart tree combined with the blood-looking sap certainly gives an interesting and more sinister take to the phrase “blood and bones like a heart tree” that Jon uses to describe Ghost later on. Both the bones and the Heart tree are vestigial remains (the heart trees being what remains behind when a singer or a greenseer passes away). They both “remember” but in totally different ways. The Heart trees do it through the weirwood network. The bones seem to remember in the form of wights. (Othor’s specifically sought out Mormont’s chamber).

I like this. I also like how you brought up Jon's thought about how his gods were waiting North of the Wall. He specifically thought the Seven had no power there. It is something to look for as we go forward because he will find his gods and their power in a very real way when he communicates with Bran in the crypts through the weirwood later this book. It is also the power of the old gods (his warging) that plays into the Halfhand's request for Jon to go on the ranging later and the power of the old gods through Ghost that finds the obsidian cache. If nothing else it helps set the stage for the increasingly explicit use of magic.

All though I've talked about the Dunk and Egg series often enough I should probably go on record officially as one who has read it and still has access to it for whatever nefarious plans Lummel is brewing. <cringes>

[Lummel]

Do we know how followers of the Old Gods are "instructed" in their religion? They don't have septons and sermons to teach them so it's a fair assumption that they learn from their parents. When Jon and Mormont say "my father told me ____" it's just the equivalent of "the septons say ____"...

Maybe but the phrases used are "My lord father believed" and "My father believed the same" which is different from 'we believe' or 'I was taught' or even '

said be honest to the tree and don't dilly dally when you do'. The belief of the fathers stands in contrast to the belief of the sons, the choice of words shows that it is not a shared belief.

I like this. I also like how you brought up Jon's thought about how his gods were waiting North of the Wall. He specifically thought the Seven had no power there. It is something to look for as we go forward because he will find his gods and their power in a very real way when he communicates with Bran in the crypts through the weirwood later this book. It is also the power of the old gods (his warging) that plays into the Halfhand's request for Jon to go on the ranging later and the power of the old gods through Ghost that finds the obsidian cache. If nothing else it helps set the stage for the increasingly explicit use of magic.

All though I've talked about the Dunk and Egg series often enough I should probably go on record officially as one who has read it and still has access to it for whatever nefarious plans Lummel is brewing. <cringes>

Hmm. I think it is significant how GRRM paints Jon's discovery of the old gods here, he is disturbed, he feels the power. It is something he has to experience, not something that he can be taught, maybe as per the prologue to AGOT such things can't be spoken about but can only be experienced - maybe that is the point of "my father believed" - ie The Ned and the Mormont father learnt through experience that one could only speak the truth to a weirwood or they felt the impossibility of lying before one while so far Mormont and jon haven't had their quality of experience.

OK, on Dunk and Egg my plan is developing...

[Addam of Hull]

Maybe but the phrases used are "My lord father believed" and "My father believed the same" which is different from 'we believe' or 'I was taught' or even '

said be honest to the tree and don't dilly dally when you do'. The belief of the fathers stands in contrast to the belief of the sons, the choice of words shows that it is not a shared belief.

Hmm. I think it is significant how GRRM paints Jon's discovery of the old gods here, he is disturbed, he feels the power. It is something he has to experience, not something that he can be taught, maybe as per the prologue to AGOT such things can't be spoken about but can only be experienced - maybe that is the point of "my father believed" - ie The Ned and the Mormont father learnt through experience that one could only speak the truth to a weirwood or they felt the impossibility of lying before one while so far Mormont and jon haven't had their quality of experience.

I'm not sure how terribly relevant this is, but I think you're dead on when you suggest that Jon hasn't quite experienced the same things wrt the old gods as Ned has. In our world, most pagan religions - which the Old Gods strongly resemble - are generally considered to be deeply personal and guided by one's individual experience. In one of Jon's chapters, he makes a comment about how he doesn't have a septon or a septa to tell him what to do. We know that there are a few specific beliefs that are associated with the Old Gods, but unlike the Seven or R'hllor, there's very little organization - no clergy, no places of worships, and likely, no written works that detail a dogma. Information then is likely passed down from father to son, mother to daughter, parent to child within individual families about specific beliefs. And because there's no organized worship, religious experience is accumulated by individual experience. When Jon says that his father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree, he's essentially doing the same thing as quoting the bible. It's something that he has knowledge of, but has yet to experience.

[Lady of Long Lake]

He knelt and reached a gloved hand down into the maw. The inside of the hollow was red with dried sap and blackened by fire.

I find it odd that neither Jon nor Mormont mention the desecration of the holy tree. Building a fire in it's mouth is dangerous to the tree, besides being disrespectful to the Old Gods. Perhaps they just pass it off as wildlings acting wild?

In today's world, if you walked into a church and saw the remains of a bonfire on the floor in the center aisle, wouldn't you be flabbergasted at the recklessness of it and make a comment?

Jon is disturbed by it though greatly, even if his thoughts don't show it. He made a wide berth around White Tree when they left and he thinks that it's to avoid congestion. His next line though is more telling,' He had seen enough of White Tree".

Beneath the skull he saw another, smaller, the jaw broken off. It was half-buried in ash and bits of bone.

Gosh, that line doesn't seem random to me! I don't know if it's symbolism for a parent protecting their child? Or the jaw-less skull being a child being silenced? I don't usually see "symbolism" in things anyways LOL! The bones would have to be recent though. Jon could reach into the maw standing on the ground so predators would have snatched the bones to gnaw on if they had been there for any length of time. Do you suppose it could be Tormund's son's skull, the one who died during the night and turned into a wight?

[Lummel]

I find it odd that neither Jon nor Mormont mention the desecration of the holy tree. Building a fire in it's mouth is dangerous to the tree, besides being disrespectful to the Old Gods. Perhaps they just pass it off as wildlings acting wild?...

It is an interesting point you make that they don't remark on the ashes and bones - they look and accept it. Do they recognise it from stories they have heard? Do they feel there are elements of the worship of the old gods that are beyond their understanding? It is ambiguous, I think we're meant to be feel awkward and off balance by the incident. My assumption is that placing the ashes and bone in the bole of the tree was an act of worship in some way, perhaps since the bones remember it is a bit like plugging the mp3 player into the docking station and linking them back to the weirnet!

In real life having a fire inside a tree would kill it, I don't know if this is a fantasy touch (like the low melt temperature gold that kills Viserys) and we have to imagine that weirwoods are similar to asbestos in their level of fire resistance or if we are to imagine that the Wildlings put the remains of their cremations inside the weirwood.

The smaller jawbone certainly isn't Tormund's son who became a wight - he doesn't get to die until ADWD. My take on it was that it meant that the Wildlings had been doing this for a while and it wasn't a one-off event :dunno:

[Winterfellian]

In real life having a fire inside a tree would kill it, I don't know if this is a fantasy touch (like the low melt temperature gold that kills Viserys) and we have to imagine that weirwoods are similar to asbestos in their level of fire resistance or if we are to imagine that the Wildlings put the remains of their cremations inside the weirwood.

The smaller jawbone certainly isn't Tormund's son who became a wight - he doesn't get to die until ADWD. My take on it was that it meant that the Wildlings had been doing this for a while and it wasn't a one-off event :dunno:

If am not misremembering in one of Brans's chapters, he is told that a weirwood left undisturbed will live forever. Given the size and apparent age of this particular tree it could be that these fires don't affect it in the way it would a normal tree. :dunno:

Lady of Long Lake brings out a good point. The fires may not kill a tree, but there is some damage at least. Makes me think this ceremony might have been of recent practice. Probably even dating to the time where the Others’ attacks began. Could it be that the bones belonged to people resurrected into wights and were put into the tree after their burning as means of further protection?

Strange that neither Mormont nor Jon noticed this as uncommon though. In Jon’s case, am inclined to think that it is because of the stories of his childhood where wildings drank blood from skulls and the like. Mormont’s is more perplexing.

[Lummel]

If am not misremembering in one of Brans's chapters, he is told that a weirwood left undisturbed will live forever. Given the size and apparent age of this particular tree it could be that these fires don't affect it in the way it would a normal tree. :dunno:

...

Strange that neither Mormont nor Jon noticed this as uncommon though. In Jon’s case, am inclined to think that it is because of the stories of his childhood where wildings drank blood from skulls and the like. Mormont’s is more perplexing.

The quote is "A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed" Bran III ADWD p458 nevermind, the point is there are ashes and bone fragments in the bole of the tree and as has been mentioned nobody comments about that. Perhaps rather like us reading they are not quite sure what to say - Jon doesn't mention the wights, he only thinks about them. We know from the prologue that some of the rangers know things about beyond the Wall that people don't talk about. Once we get into ADWD with what Bloodraven and Roose say we get the picture that Winterfell Northern religion is a little sanitised, here they are seeing a rawer version - no surprise maybe that they are dumbstruck?

[Ragnorak]

Sorry for the late post, had a hectic week...

Jon III ACOK

Summary

After seven empty villages and days of torrential downpours the Watch finds Craster's Keep. We are introduced to Gilly. First when Ghost steals two of her rabbits and a second time when Sam sends her to Jon seeking protection for her unborn son. Here we also learn of Craster's sacrifices to the Others. Craster tells Mormont that Mance has amassed all the wildlings in the Frost Fangs and they set out in that direction the next morning.

Observations

How Jon and his wolf are viewed by factions within the Watch

“Ah, it’s you, Lord Snow.” Dywen smiled an oaken smile; his teeth were carved of wood, and fit badly. “Thought me and the boy had us one o’ them Others to deal with. Lose your wolf?”

...There’s your beast, Snow.”

“You may be the Lord Commander’s pet, but you’re not the Lord Commander… and you wouldn’t talk so bloody bold without that monster of yours always about.”

“Jon,” Buckwell greeted him from horseback. “Keep a good edge on that bastard sword of yours. We’ll be needing it soon enough.”

A wolf in sheep's clothing?

Craster’s sheepskin jerkin and cloak of sewn skins made a shabby contrast

On the southwest, he found an open gate flanked by a pair of animal skulls on high poles: a bear to one side, a ram to the other. Bits of flesh still clung to the bear skull

A contrast to Mormont's relatively calm raven.

The drumming of the rain against the hoods of their cages had the ravens squawking and fluttering. “You put a fox in with them?” Jon called out.

Also is the "fox in the henhouse" reference connected to the "hen" who catches Ghost in the rabbit house?

Some Morality Food for Thought

What makes a slave? A set up for Dany and Tyrion chapters to come?

The woman licked at thin lips. “This is our place. Craster keeps us safe. Better to die free than live a slave.”

“Slave,” muttered the raven.

Craster claiming to be more moral than The Ned?

“Who’s this one now?” Craster said before Jon could go. “He has the look of a Stark.”

“My steward and squire, Jon Snow.”

“A bastard, is it?” Craster looked Jon up and down. “Man wants to bed a woman, seems like he ought to take her to wife. That’s what I do.”

Jon walked away as confused as he was angry. Sam’s heart was a big as the rest of him, but for all his reading he could be as thick as Grenn at times. It was impossible, and dishonorable besides. So why do I feel so ashamed?

“Black brothers are sworn never to take wives, don’t you know that? And we’re guests in your father’s hall besides.”

“Not you,” she said. “I watched. You never ate at his board, nor slept by his fire. He never gave you guest-right, so you’re not bound to him. It’s for the baby I have to go.”

Jon remembered a spray of red blood on white snow, and the way Theon Greyjoy had kicked the dead man’s head. The man was a deserter. On the way back to Winterfell, Jon and Robb had raced, and found six direwolf pups in the snow. A thousand years ago.

“Hearth tales. Does Craster seem less than human to you?”

In half a hundred ways.

Personal responsibility?

“The wide world is full of people wanting help, Jon. Would that some could find the courage to help themselves. Craster sprawls in his loft even now, stinking of wine and lost to sense. On his board below lies a sharp new axe. Were it me, I’d name it ‘Answered Prayer’ and make an end.”

Analysis

The two things that struck me in this chapter were the grey morality issues seeded throughout and the thematic treatment of disillusionment.

Craster is by almost any measure a completely detestable creature, yet his hospitality has been the difference between life and death for many rangers over the years. Most of the other POVs show people making common cause for political reasons and each such alliance is seasoned with its own morally dubious flavors. Craster is a far simpler version of the common cause dilemma. He is outside the Realm and not subject to its laws and the common cause is literally a matter of life and death. All oaths and obligations place him purely outside the Watch's responsibility and all pragmatics make him an entirely beneficial ally. Politically dealing with him is as black and white as it gets yet the morality of the association can make the skin crawl.

Gilly represents a mix of moral dilemmas Jon will face throughout his arc. She is a wildling seeking protection from the Others which makes this the first time Jon is confronted with just who the "realms of men" are even if he doesn't fully realize it now. (Worth noting is that when Jon later embraces the wildlings in Dance, they come to him full of Mormont's courage to help themselves as does Alys Karstark.) Gilly also represents the first external moral imposition of the "right thing" vs. the honorable thing. His earlier tests were born of his internal conflicts though "family" is a common root in her plea. In an ironic twist it is Jon who will make a similar plea to Gilly to take someone away to save a child from sacrifice to cruel gods.

There is also a significant parallel to Alys Karstark here.

“They say the king gives justice and protects the weak.” She started to climb off the rock, awkwardly, but the ice had made it slippery and her foot went out from under her. Jon caught her before she could fall, and helped her safely down. The woman knelt on the icy ground. “M’lord, I beg you—”

“Sorry to be of trouble, m’lord. I only… they said the king keeps people safe, and I thought…” Despairing

Both women come to Jon seeking the protection of a "true king" in the theme of Sansa's "true knights." Both kneel before Jon, a gesture to a King, clutching cloaks of the Nights Watch.

The chapter as a whole seemed to serve as a microcosm of a disillusionment arc.

The haunted forest, Jon thought ruefully. The drowned forest, more like it.

Both the fear and the wonder of this adventure have given way to the practical realities of the day to day struggles of life. This once mystical place that lay beyond the end of the very world is just like any other and fraught with extremely mundane miseries like monotonous rain storms.

Jon remembered how he’d felt the day they had left the Wall: nervous as a maiden, but eager to glimpse the mysteries and wonders beyond each new horizon. Well, here’s one of the wonders, he told himself, gazing about the squalid, foul-smelling hall.

The magical musings of youth give way to the ordinary and the once mysterious becomes routine. Despite this there are still magical moments for those with eyes to see.

The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tents of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice.

So there is magic beyond the Wall after all. He found himself thinking of his sisters, perhaps because he’d dreamed of them last night. Sansa would call this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonder of it, but Arya would run out laughing and shouting, wanting to touch it all.

The demystified routine filled with responsibility is a very adult mindset and catching and savoring moments like this before responsibility consumes one's attentions is also a mature outlook. This is the ranging that Jon has dreamed of since his first POV-- the one he was still fixated on when they found the two wight bodies. There's a coming of age subtext throughout the chapter yet Jon still finds a moment like this. It struck me as the arc all the Stark children will eventually need to follow as they "come of age."

This scene is quite thematically similar to Sansa's Snow Winterfell though far briefer. Both scenes have the POV mired in dull routine, both are scenes of stunning beauty created by the force of Winter, both think of their siblings, both were dreaming of family and home, both are in places they had heard stories about and found the reality dull in the realization, and both scenes ends are tied to their responsibilities (though Sansa's is far more complex.) There are very few explicit Sansa references in Jon and it is interesting to see this kind of parallel crop up when she is referenced. (For those who are unfamiliar, Tze has a very interesting piece on Jon and Sansa here.)

[Lummel]

...The two things that struck me in this chapter were the grey morality issues seeded throughout and the thematic treatment of disillusionment...

By the Seven! Your post reminds me of how much there is to like and enjoy in this series.

All the swollen flooding springs and becks, the men looking as though they were crying, the disillusionment - it's the knights of summer being washed away.

[Fire Eater]

“A bastard, is it?” Craster looked Jon up and down. “Man wants to bed a woman, seems like he ought to take her to wife. That’s what I do.”

That's hinting at exactly what Jon's father, Rhaegar, did.

Why is she wearing Sam's cloak?

In a Westerosi highborn marriage, a wife dons a cloak given to her by her husband, foreshadowing for Sam and Gilly's relationship.

“They say the king gives justice and protects the weak.” She started to climb off the rock, awkwardly, but the ice had made it slippery and her foot went out from under her. Jon caught her before she could fall, and helped her safely down. The woman knelt on the icy ground. “M’lord, I beg you—”

“Sorry to be of trouble, m’lord. I only… they said the king keeps people safe, and I thought…” Despairing

She says the king protects the weak, and is going to Jon for protection. Another of the many hints pointing to Jon as king.

This is a grey chapter, as Jon is described as going away from Sam after talking about Gilly as feeling confused and angry. He knows there wouldn't be any way Mormont would allow him to make off with Gilly, but at the same time he feels guilty about not helping someone in need who simply wants to protect her child.

[Harlaw's Book]

Mormont acts both as a mentor and as a stand in for the relationship Jon never had with Ned. (And in IMHO Jon’s future mentors will also act as stand ins for the relationships he never had with other blood relatives). As mentioned, Mormont treats Jon as an heir. Mormont also represents the “pragmatic and make common cause with despicable people” side of Ned that Jon may have gotten to know when Jon was older had Ned not died. Mormont’s handling of Craster reminds me of Ned thinking to himself he can’t just order Robert’s small council around because he is now among equals.

[bbstark]

Some Morality Food for Thought

What makes a slave? A set up for Dany and Tyrion chapters to come?

The woman licked at thin lips. “This is our place. Craster keeps us safe. Better to die free than live a slave.”

“Slave,” muttered the raven.

Amazing post Ragnorak! These reread threads are really gems on the forum :) (trying to keep up again)

You know what this minor piece of the chapter made me wonder is why does the raven speak here? And it's not just speak but 'mutter', a weak version of 'to speak' where you're not sure if you want to be heard or not. On my first read, the raven seemed comical, sometimes even annoying, but I eventually picked up on the idea that he speaks to make a point. In this case I don't think he's fortifying the woman's point that they are free people at liberty to do as they should chose, but referring to her as a slave. While she parrots the words that she undoubtedly heard Craster speak when he manipulates or forces his wives/daughters into submitting to him, the raven parrots hers, and in a way unmasks the only relevant word of what she said, the word that ironically describes her.

I think enhances the dilemma that Jon is about to face, because it surely does not escape him that these women are slaves to Craster. And though he initially had no intention of violating his word of honor, the condition that Gilly is in, as well as the inevitable fate of her son does in the end convince him to help her escape.

Tragedy is not the choice between good and evil, but two incompatible goods, which in this case is honor vs. morality.

I also really like the piece you picked up on about the women (both Gilly and later Alys) who symobically recognize the King in Jon. I think this gesture reminds him of his duties, whether he sees himself as King, or (more likely), not.

[Mladen]

By the Seven! Your post reminds me of how much there is to like and enjoy in this series.

And more than that. This analysis remind us how much there is to like and enjoy on this forum... Ragnorak, as always, I have utter respect for everything you write...

I think this chapter brings harsh dose of reality to what Aemon told Jon. It's one thing to discuss righteousness and honor in Castle Black, but when you have such short period time to decide, than everything is at stake. This was challenging for Jon, not because he had to make some choice for the first time, then because this was one of his many trials about honor. There is a moral dilemma here,a nd this is beginning of all dilemmas Jon will have. Like Rag wonderfully connected, from Gilly to Alys, there is a strong line of Jon's questioning his life and reexamining the oaths he has taken... This chapter in a moral way, introduced him to the world of adults, where the line between right and wrong is sometimes so blurry you can't see it.

edit: spelling

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh great post Ragnorak! Really enjoyed reading your analysis. Also very nice finds by Fire Eater, even if Septon Lummel may disapprove :P Will post more once I am not on a mobile device as I had some thoughts on Sam as well.

[Lummel]

Sam

Sam is the one who Jon warns not to talk to the women thinking that the warning is unnecessary yet is the one who breaks that command.

Sam is the one who tells Gilly to turn to Jon for help - presumably because Jon was the one who helped Sam. Sam in this way is making Jon into , de facto, a King. He's obliging him to play that role of protecting the people. Sam is changing Jon to live up to his moral standards - this makes Jon uncomfortable.

Again this ties into the theme of disillusionment that Ragnorak spoke of - except here extended into reversal. Originally Jon dreamt of being the ranger, now he envies the lads at the wall drinking mulled wine before dinner, Sam was fearful but is now the one who is breaking orders.

I agree with Fireeater about the cloak symbolising taking Gilly under his protection - but that is a Southeron custom, for the Wildlings its all about stealing. I suppose Gilly does steal down to see Jon by dawn's early light and Sam persuades her to break the orders that she has been given not to talk too...

The Halfhand will later talk to Jon about the importance of knowing your men - at this stage Jon doesn't even know Sam, the watchman who he is closest to.

Craster and religion

Jon II - we had the unease of the weirwood, this chapter we have the cold Craster. Dywen says that Craster has a cold smell about him, Mormont reminds us that the cold winds are rising, Craster says he is a godly man, but the sister-wives say that Craster worships the cold gods. There is a neat moment: "Jon remembered a spray of red blood on white snow" that links us back to the prologue and Bran I AGOT. Snow of course is an awfully cold name when you come to think of it, the blood on the snow a little fire and ice that will be repeated several times.

Scatology

The suggestion that the whole of Craster's is built on shit...they certainly seem to be hearing some bullshit from Craster, then later Jon urinates presumably cutting the crap, which is later put into words when he quizzes Mormont at the end of the chapter. This kind of thing is more typical of a Tyrion chapter - underlining that Jon is doing some thinking here.

[Lyanna Stark]

Some short comments on Sam and the Sam - Jon relationship.

Firstly, with Sam as an unlikely ally and as a bit of the plump sidekick, there is definitely ties to Frodo and Samwise Gamgee, mostly in AGOT but later as well. Like his (sort of) name sake, he starts out as someone slightly absurd at that particular job (Samwise Gamgee is an under gardener from comfortable Shire and Samwell Tarly a fat southron lordling), but despite their backgrounds, they turn into valuable companions and friends. Both Sams also enjoy their foods and when it's called for are braver than they think they are. Samwell Tarly killing the Other also reminds me of Samwise Gamgee at Cirith Ungol, (although this is in chapters to come, so I might write something more about that when we get to that).

However, Samwell Tarly is also a very different character and in this chapter we get one more nod to Samwell the Wizard because he's got his wizard hat on!!

In the midst of the baggage train, Jon passed Samwell Tarly, slumped in his saddle under a wide floppy hat.

...

Water ran off the brim of Sam's hat as he lifted his head.

Sam

Sam is the one who Jon warns not to talk to the women thinking that the warning is unnecessary yet is the one who breaks that command.

Sam is the one who tells Gilly to turn to Jon for help - presumably because Jon was the one who helped Sam. Sam in this way is making Jon into , de facto, a King. He's obliging him to play that role of protecting the people. Sam is changing Jon to live up to his moral standards - this makes Jon uncomfortble.

Yes, it is a very interesting thing and overall, in the Jon chapters there seem to be lots of these little small references to kingship, in this chapter we have Jon being made "king" by Sam and also Gilly kneeling in front of him (although wildlings are no kneelers as we know). Mormont's raven joins in with "king, king, king" too.

There's also the rabbit smelling like a "king's feast" and Gilly being told that Jon is a lord and the brother of a King.

Again this ties into the theme of disillusionment that Ragnorak spoke of - except here extended into reversal. Originally Jon dreamt of being the ranger, now he envies the lads at the wall drinking mulled wine before dinner, Sam was fearful but is now the one who is breaking orders.

Jon has his dream shattered, while Sam realised his nightmares aren't coming true? :)

I agree with Fireeater about the cloak symbolising taking Gilly under his protection - but that is a Southeron custom, for the Wildlings its all about stealing. I suppose Gilly does steal down to see Jon by dawn's early light and Sam persuades her to break the orders that she has been given not to talk too...

I agree on the symbolism too. Also, remember that while Gilly is northern, Sam is southern so his customs is not about stealing. Also, I don't really think Gilly is one of the "free folk" more than in name, since she is in effect Craster's slave. Hence for her, I think it's applicable. Plus we know that Sam and Gilly are sorta kinda in a relationship as of end AFFC and that Sam is trying to think of ways for Gilly to be safe and comfortable, i.e. he is trying to fulfill the cloak promise and look out for her.

Family: Jon comments briefly on Robb being made king, he thinks of Theon the turncloak, or Ned and his thoughts on cruel and useless lords and there's also the beautiful passage where Jon thinks of Arya and Sansa. When he sees the north in all its beauty, he thinks immediately on his sisters and their delighted reactions. It's such a sweet and sad section. Later on he compliments Gilly because Sansa told him how to be courteous.

What may be significant a well is tat Jon says he dreamed of them, and dreams are often significant in ASOIAF. We don't get any more information on it, but based on Jon's thoughts, we can probably surmise it was a happy dream, of home and family. Perhaps to contrast Craster's very dysfunctional one.

Guest Right and "I see only men": There really is an interesting commentary on guest right in this chapter, and as it comes before the Red Wedding and the Frey Pies, it's fairly enlightening. I imagine that this and the Rat Cook tale are put in to really emphasise that you do not break guest right. It also fits in with that Jon may think on the surface that he needs to not "do something about" Craster and that Mormont is right, he cannot set the world to rights. Yet Jon refuses Craster's food anyway.

]I will not eat Craster's food, he decided suddenly.

"I broke my fast with the men, my lord."

Even if he says he thinks Sam is mad and that they probably won't come back this way, there it is. Jon is already preparing somehow to "save" Gilly. He rebels against not doing the morally right thing. He thinks it's dishonourable to save Gilly, but is it really? Jon, like Ned, I think really ponders what honour means, not just what it means on the face of it, but what the point of honour really is. It's really the same type of thinking that made Ned lie and save Sansa's life instead of sacrificing lots of things to expose Joffrey.

Jon's thoughts on the wildlings is also interesting perhaps foreshadows his decision in ADWD:

What did he think I could do for her? We're here to fight wildlings, not to save them.

In this chapter it also becomes clear that the Ned is a great inspiration for Jon and that this thinking seems to influence him as well during the decisions he makes wrt the wildlings in ADWD. the exchange between Jon and Mormont regarding what Ned said is definitely poignant. Mormont's words on how people should save themselves and that it's not their fight, while technically correct, is overridden by the Ned's influence about doing what is right and that wildlings are indeed men and that some men (like perhaps Bolton and Craster) are not worth having, despite being in positions of power.

Also, Dolorous Edd, is this maybe his best chapter? Despite having read his comments several times before, I cannot help but giggle at them. :lol:

[Lummel]

...Yes, it is a very interesting thing and overall, in the Jon chapters there seem to be lots of these little small references to kingship, in this chapter we have Jon being made "king" by Sam and also Gilly kneeling in front of him (although wildlings are no kneelers as we know). Mormont's raven joins in with "king, king, king" too.

There's also the rabbit smelling like a "king's feast" and Gilly being told that Jon is a lord and the brother of a King.

Along those lines there is also "I do not choose the road I ride" Jon denying his 'kingship' to Gilly, hearkening back to the whole business of the Kingsroad being the road not taken. I'll make a fuss of this because GRRM is careful to talk about tracks, paths and trails when describing how the night's watch are travelling while they are north of the Wall and Gilly as a Wildling won't know what a road is.

...we know that Sam and Gilly are sorta kinda in a relationship as of end AFFC and that Sam is trying to think of ways for Gilly to be safe and comfortable, i.e. he is trying to fulfill the cloak promise and look out for her...

sorta kinda? How great an acquaintance with fat pink masts and breast milk is required for people to be in a relationship these days? :laugh:

Family: Jon comments briefly on Robb being made king, he thinks of Theon the turncloak, or Ned and his thoughts on cruel and useless lords and there's also the beautiful passage where Jon thinks of Arya and Sansa. When he sees the north in all its beauty, he thinks immediately on his sisters and their delighted reactions. It's such a sweet and sad section. Later on he compliments Gilly because Sansa told him how to be courteous.

What may be significant a well is tat Jon says he dreamed of them, and dreams are often significant in ASOIAF. We don't get any more information on it, but based on Jon's thoughts, we can probably surmise it was a happy dream, of home and family. Perhaps to contrast Craster's very dysfunctional one...

Hmm I noticed Jon's hand at the end of the chapter, the fingers opening and closing just after talking about historic and the risk of a current attack on the North by the united might of the Wildlings - but as you say that discussion was preceded by happy Winterfell memories of Arya and Sansa - which is exactly the same nexus of feelings that we see in Jon XIII ADWD - Winterfell, siblings, love, happiness.

Aren't all of Dolorous Edd's chapters great, although admittedly in his one he discovers that Craster's is a dung heap and gets urinated on by a dog in the night...

[Winterfellian]

Ragnorak, great chapter analysis as usual. I agree with Lummel, your post reminds us how much there is to admire in these books.

I have yet to read the chapter but I really like the analysis on Jon and Sam's friendship.

How great an acquaintance with fat pink masts and breast milk is required for people to be in a relationship these days? :laugh:

:lmao: This made me laugh so much. But am sooo not thanking you for the mental picture Lummel!

ETA- Would have love seeing the look on Bowen Marsh's face when Mormont told Craster (one of the worst forms of wildings whatsoever) if he wanted to be escorted south to the Wall