The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK

[moon on the willow]

I think it`s about red head girls. And I am particularly interested in one whom he described as radiant way back in AGOT, in moment when everyone else looked pretty boring to him... Thanks Ragnorak for that, now I have enough for blasphemous therory :devil:

I think you mean the Golden Lion, Jaime Lannister, but in that POV only one girl was described as "radiant", even beside the legendary beauty Cersei Lannister.

[Lummel]

ok, off topic question to all you bold posters and thoughtful lurkers! Have you read all three Dunk and Egg stories? When you post would you mind just mentioning if you've read all or some of them and if you have easy access to them in future? Naturally I am scheming something and would like to know ;)

[Mladen]

ok, off topic question to all you bold posters and thoughtful lurkers! Have you read all three Dunk and Egg stories? When you post would you mind just mentioning if you've read all or some of them and if you have easy access to them in future? Naturally I am scheming something and would like to know ;)

I have read all three of them, and have easy access to them. I am up to whatever you`re scheming. ;)

[Winterfellian]

Lummel's scheming something. Should I be worried? :worried:

Haven't read them because I've been unable to find them in my country. Unluckily for me, the books only gain popularity here after the tv series was released and not all off George's material is available.

[Lady Arya's Song]

I have managed to find some of them online and have read them and intrigued by Lummel's scheming. :drunk:

Mladen, after reading your excellent wolf thread. I have some ideas about where you might be going. Wouldn't upset me too terribly much if that is the way GRRM takes us. She is a beautiful young lady.

About Jon Snow, has anyone mentioned Judges chapter 11 in regard to my favorite character? Just a theory I have.

[Elba the Intoner]

Hi all! Fantastic stuff going on. I can't comment on anything in depth because I am about to run out. I just wanted to answer Lummel's question that I have read the three stories and I have easy access to the third one, The Mystery Knight, and can get the other two pretty easily from my local library. I'm intrigued about this scheme.

Also, towards the end of the last thread, someone, can't remember who, mentioned that he had read a long post about Jon's mother Lyanna, the maternal Stark line, and being a princess of the North with ties to Val and Dalla's pin and he or she wanted to know if anyone had reference to that post. I think I can help this person out. I believe this is a reference to Bran Vras' collection of essays called the "Winterfell Huis Clos", and you can access that by going to Bran Vras's post here, about Sansa's and Arya's maternal line and the Bat of Harenhall. At the end of that post he links to his Huis Clos essays and I read the one on Lyanna. Great stuff - very thorough.

ETA I found the post in question from the last thread asking about Lyanna's matrilineal line. It's post #389, from Lakin1013:

In one of the posts in another thread, there was a link to an essay about a possible matrilineal thread regarding Lyanna. The essay was arcane and academic but it seemed (at least to me) to be saying that the big surprise is not R+L = J, nor is it the importance of R, nor is it the mingling of the blood of R+L, but rather what Lyanna brings to Jon. The essay goes on to argue that Val and Dalla also descend from this moon house (cannot remember the exact name the writer gave it).

Anyway, reading about this gift that a father would give a son, I found myself thinking about how the sword was described. If anyone knows the link to this essay (it had a French title) I would appreciate it.

[Isildur's Mane]

@Lummel: I have read all Dunk and Egg stories and have easy access to them

@Winterfellian: I couldn't find them locally either and I got mine off amazon from America

[butterbumps!]

I'm really sorry for the delay. I had a computer crash and my programs were wiped out, so this took a lot longer to sort out than it should have.

JON I (aCoK)

overview

Jon goes into the library under CB to find Sam, who has been charged with the task of finding useful maps for their upcoming ranging beyond the Wall. Sam reluctantly leaves the books, going to Mormont's chambers with Jon to present his findings. On their way, they watch Ser Endrew training new recruits who had arrived from Gulltown; Jon briefly discusses their promise with Donal, who is also watching. We learn that news of Robb's crowing arrived with these recruits. He and the smith reflect briefly on the topic of kingship before departing for the LC's chambers.

When they arrive, Thoren Smallwood, the interim First Ranger," is in the middle of an argument with Mormont. He believes that Mormont should stay at CB while he leads the ranging. It's noted that Thoren is one of Alliser's cronies. Thoren leaves in a huff, and Mormont turns his attention to Sam, who quakes under questioning. Mormont dismisses Sam, telling Jon he had hoped to send the boy to treat with Renly, as he's Lord Tarly's son, but will chose another brother given that Sam hardly a respectable envoy in his opinion.

The rest of the chapter is another of Mormont's lessons to Jon. He gives an infodump of Targaryen history as a parable for Jon in terms of keeping vows. Mormont presents the story of Aemon, who was brother to a king, much like Jon's situation. Jon doesn't deny that the thought of Robb's glory will trouble him, but he swears that he will remain true to his vow.

observations

• We're given a bit of a survey of what the library at CB has to offer, which I think will be useful later:
  
  • maps
    
  • An account of a ranging from the Shadow Tower to Lorn Point (Frozen Shore) during the reign of Dorren Stark (pre conquest); it says they fought giants and traded with the CotF
    
  • An Inventory (or bill of sale) from 600 years ago
    
  • A Book of the Old Tongue
    
  • Map of tree-face locations (a map of the weirnet, basically)
    
  • Scrolls from old Valyria
    
  • Counts of the Seasons from 1,000s of years ago, written by maesters
    

  [*]Jon reflects that the Wall has "moods," reinforcing some points last thread of the Wall as an emotional litmus of sorts.

  [*]The Watchmen call the comet "Mormont's Torch," to light the way through the haunted forest. (for comparison, Old Nan smells it and says it means dragons, while Osha says it means "fire and blood")

  [*]Jon likens the white raven that had come from the Citadel to announce autumn to Ghost

  [*]6 recruits come from Gulltown: Hop-Robin (the man with the clubfoot), the twins Arron and Emrick, Satin, a graybeard and a "grinning loon."

Targ history tangent

The wiki offers several family trees detailing out Mormont's account of this to Jon (I'm adding Bloodraven info; Mormont doesn't include those), but in brief:

• Aegon IV (the Unworthy) married his sister Naerys. From this union Daeron II came, though it is rumored that Naerys' and Aegon's brother, Aemon (the Dragonknight) was Daeron II's true father.
  
• Daeron II had 4 sons: Baelor Breakspear (died in the Hedge Knight tourney), Aerys I (ruled after Daeron II; appointed Bloodraven as his Hand), Rhaegel, and Maekar I. After Aerys I, the crown passes to Maekar. He is the king who imprisons Bloodraven.
  
• Maekar has 4 sons: Daeron (died of an STD; Aemon served him for a while as maester), Aerion Brightflame (Maekar exiled him abroad; earned a Darwin award by drinking wildfire), Aemon (Daeron II made the decision to send him to the Citadel), and Aegon V.
  
• A Great Council was convened, and the crown was quietly offered to Aemon, but he declined. The crown passed to Aegon V, and Aemon chose to take the Black. Extra tidbit: Bloodraven was part of the "honor guard" to accompany Aemon to the Wall.
  

analysis

First History Lesson

I was struck by how dismissive Jon is of the virtue of books and the observations Sam brings to his attention here. This is a very different Jon than we'll see in DwD, who stays up at night poring over maps and volumes for information. I think part of Jon's attitude is merely the fact that Mormont had given Sam a specific task, and doesn't want Sam to get in trouble for going on tangents. However, Jon also reveals callowness and a lack of foresight in how utterly uninterested he is in what Sam shows him.

Sam first tries to show Jon an account of a previous ranging to the Frozen Shore, pointing out that the men were in contact with the CotF. Jon seems to take it for a children's tale, and changes the subject to Sam's writing down the ranging they are about to go on in the future. Given that they are about to go on a ranging themselves, I'd think Jon would be even just a little curious about past accounts. Jon then outright dismisses a volume that Sam believes is either an inventory or a bill of sale. Sam tells him that such books can tell much of the history of the Watch, but Jon merely says "they ate food, and lived as we live," as he seems convinced such accounts will yield nothing of value, that the Watch hasn't changed.

The most egregious moment for me is when Sam tells Jon that the library is "a treasure," and Jon seems to disagree: "Treasure meant gold, silver, and jewels, not dust, spiders and rotting leather." Talk about a seriously unenlightened and frankly childish statement. Jon is a boy who had a maester and took lessons; that he doesn't understand there could be extremely useful information in the library is vexing.

dealing with fear: whores and gods

A philistine Jon may be, but he sincerely tries to raise Sam's spirits, which have been dismal from the anticipation of the ranging. Jon admits that he's scared too, as anyone with common sense would be. Jon recalls the wight he fought, but suppresses that memory for Sam's sake, giving him inspirational advice instead: “There’s no shame in fear, my father told me, what matters is how we face it."

As Jon and Sam wind their way around CB, they reflect on the ways the brothers are facing their fears. Many are off at Mole's Town to partake in the debauchery of liquor and sex. Jon refused to go with his friends there, with what I believe is a hint of Jon's appeal to some moral superiority: "Do what you want. I took a vow." Other brothers have taken to the Sept to pray. Jon feels no more tempted by that, as his gods are of the "wild places:" "The Seven have no power beyond the Wall, he thought, but my gods will be waiting." Not only are Jon's gods beyond the Wall, but we know the sex Jon just passed up will be as well.

Donal on Kingship

As Jon watches the new recruits, Donal asks him if he's heard the news about Robb. Jon is unsure how he feels about the matter, but answers "loyally": "The brother he’d played with, fought with, shared his first cup of wine with? But not mother’s milk, no. So now Robb will sip summerwine from jeweled goblets, while I’m kneeling beside some stream sucking snowmelt from cupped hands. “Robb will make a good king,” he said loyally." There's a note of jealousy and a sense of unfairness in Jon's thoughts. This news pulls at Jon much differently than the news of Robb's march or Ned's death; it doesn't seem to be a temptation to break vows as much as personal demons to battle.

Donal has doubts about whether it's possible to gauge how good a king will be; he was disappointed by Robert, who he believed had shown promise prior to his actually ruling: "I tell you this—Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.” He further elaborates on the Baratheon brothers: Robert was the "true steel," Stannis is the iron that "breaks before he bends," and Renly is copper, shiny and bright but ultimately worthless. Reflecting on the fact that Donal is likely a Baratheon man who believes Joffrey the true heir, Jon's reluctant to ask what metal Robb might be. He further reflects that the "Watch takes no sides," in light of how many different loyalties men haven't truly discarded, merely buried upon taking the oaths.

The Watch takes ALL sides

Mormont is quite unimpressed with Sam's nervous answers when asked questions. When Sam leaves, Mormont confides to Jon that he had hoped to send Sam to treat with Renly, asking for support for the Watch given that he's Lord Tarly's son. However, Mormont believes Sam would leave a poor impression on Renly and his men, choosing instead Ser Arnell, whose mother was of the Red-Apple Fossoways. He had already dispatched Ser Alliser with the writhing hand to KL to ask support from the Lannisters. He'd not counted on Tyrion's being Hand at KL when he sent Thorne, and had chosen him thinking he'd make the best impression on the likes of Cersei and Joffrey. He confides that "House Lannister has never been a friend to the Watch," and has low expectations.

It's clear that the Watch's reliance on support of the realm forces the Watch to be involved in politics-- from trying to choose the "right" emissaries to asking each political faction for help. I think it's useful to keep Mormont's example in mind when considering the line between neutrality and taking part.

Aemon's parable

I will admit that I've wondered sometimes whether Mormont has any idea that Aemon is Jon's uncle; this is quite a long-winded history lesson for the point Mormont is making, and wildly apropos to more than Jon's and Aegon's condition of having kings for brothers. The lesson Jon draws from this is to keep his vows and not let the fact that Robb will live a glorified life depress him. As mentioned above, the business of Robb's becoming king doesn't strike me as something Jon would be tempted to break vows for, unless Mormont had a suspicion that Robb would try to appoint Jon to some kind of position in his council. Barring a potential appointment drawing Jon from the Watch, Mormont's parable strikes me more as something to help Jon process and work through the feelings of jealousy and unfairness like a therapy session, even to the extent of referring Jon to someone with a shared plight for extra emotional support.

The irony of the passage is interesting, though. Given that Jon has a claim to the throne through Rhaegar (unbeknownst to him of course), it makes this lesson even that much more relevant to Jon. In terms of KitN, though Robb doesn't give Jon a council appointment, we know he signed a will legitimizing Jon and appointing him his heir, which is another instance in which Jon may have a kingship fall in his lap the way it had for Aemon. To make this even more relevant, Aemon, who was only a sworn maester at the point of being offered the kingship, chose to go to the Wall after in order to neutralize himself against people who would try to use him against his brother (to try to raise Aemon if they disapproved of the way Aegon V was performing). With both the will and Rickon floating around, as well as Sansa's claim, Aemon's example to remove himself entirely to prevent discord might reiterate further down the road for Jon.

[redviper9]

<snip>

Excellent post, bumps!

I like your mention of Jon's dismissive attitude towards the Castle Black library. As a historian myself, I always smile when I read about Sam's excitement at finding old bills of sale and traveller's logs (and I've always half-suspected that Jon's attitude is indicative of what my non-historian friends think of me). But I think Jon's attitude does show that he is still under the impression that the most important aspect of leadership is martial prowess. This doesn't mean that Jon thinks at this point that martial prowess is the only thing that matters (as he did when we first meet him in AGoT and he extols the virtues of Daeron the Young Dragon); Jon demonstrated that he realized Sam's importance to the Watch when he lobbied Maester Aemon on his behalf. But he still has a ways to go before he himself embraces the more intellectual and mundane side of leadership.

It is also interesting to think of the interactions that Jon has with his superiors in this chapter as reflective of his arc up to this point in the narrative. Jon's conversation with Donal Noye revolves almost entirely around the martial merits of the leaders they're discussing. Robert had the potential for greatness, but he went to rust like a sword that's hung up after a campaign; Stannis will ultimately break in battle; and Renly is useless because he has no martial qualities. But the Old Bear talks to Jon about other aspects of leadership that Jon is only now becoming familiar with. Of the Targaryen monarchs Mormont mentions, the two most celebrated -- Daeron II and Aegon V -- relied on more than their martial prowess (in fact, much of the opposition to Daeron II was centered specifically on his favoring intellectual over military pursuits). And Aemon is held up as an example because he knew when to walk away from power and because he knows that it can be a destabilizing force if used improperly.

[Lummel]

...I was struck by how dismissive Jon is of the virtue of books and the observations Sam brings to his attention here. This is a very different Jon than we'll see in DwD, who stays up at night poring over maps and volumes for information...

...I like your mention of Jon's dismissive attitude towards the Castle Black library...

Thee was a great observation back in the first thread that one of Jon's skills was his ability to take advice, learn from others and develop. This is an interesting example that this can be a slow process - Tyrion II AGOT "a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge" Jon is told, but this isn't something he has absorbed yet clearly.

[Winterfellian]

Great stuff as usual butterbumps!

I wanted to comment about Jon's attitude towards the Library and the books.Jon has never strike me as particularly bookish but I I think the scene is there to illustrate part of Jon's growing up process. In the first AGOT chapter we saw a more boyish version of Jon, whose head was full of idealistic and not very pragmatic ideas about the NW and heroes like the Young Dragon. This chapter seems to make emphasis on the pragmatic and literal side of Jon’s character. For him treasure are jewels and gold not old books; whereas many other characters are seeing dragons, Lannister colors, Tully colors, etc. in the comet Jon impatiently says: Never mind about comets, it’s the maps the Old Bear wants. While his brothers look up to “Mormont’s torch” to guide the ranging Jon is solely focused on the maps.

I think his previous experience and disenchantment with the NW has stripped the more idealistic side of him and he’s now focused on the pragmatic side of things. His previous naiveness and idealism has been replaced a more literal outlook of things. But that doesn’t mean he’s all the wiser for it. His dismissive of the treasure of knowledge is as childish as his empty boasts about the Young Dragon in AGOT. Is during his trip beyond the Wall where he learns to balance between these 2 stances.

[Fire Eater]

Treasure meant gold, silver, and jewels, not dust, spiders and rotting leather.

Sorry to nitpick, but Jon doesn't say that he only thinks it. Also, Arnell's mother was a green-apple Fossoway.

until Jaime Lannister put an end to the line of Dragonkings

"King," croaked the raven.

Note that the raven says "King" in Jon's presence right after Mormont said Jaime ended the line of Dragonkings, implying Jon is one.

And Aemon is held up as an example because he knew when to walk away from power and because he knows that it can be a destabilizing force if used improperly.

Jon gets that opportunity when Stannis offers to make legitimize him and make him Lord of WF.

[butterbumps!]

But I think Jon's attitude does show that he is still under the impression that the most important aspect of leadership is martial prowess. This doesn't mean that Jon thinks at this point that martial prowess is the only thing that matters (as he did when we first meet him in AGoT and he extols the virtues of Daeron the Young Dragon); Jon demonstrated that he realized Sam's importance to the Watch when he lobbied Maester Aemon on his behalf. But he still has a ways to go before he himself embraces the more intellectual and mundane side of leadership.

Of the Targaryen monarchs Mormont mentions, the two most celebrated -- Daeron II and Aegon V -- relied on more than their martial prowess (in fact, much of the opposition to Daeron II was centered specifically on his favoring intellectual over military pursuits). And Aemon is held up as an example because he knew when to walk away from power and because he knows that it can be a destabilizing force if used improperly.

I just want to say that I really like the way you articulated this as a sliding scale of essentially force ("martial prowess") and intellectual pursuits, on which Jon hasn't fully struck the balance. Lummel's right-- I thought of Tyrion's early lesson too, here, that he apparently hadn't taken to heart about the books. I think it's really interesting the different rates at which Jon takes these various lessons to heart; Donal's talk changes his attitude 180, but he's much slower to understand the significance of the library and books generally. With that said, though, he is very quick to speak up and articulate the practical applications of the materials Sam procured when Mormont asks. It's not as though Jon doesn't understand certain applications of knowledge.

I think his previous experience and disenchantment with the NW has stripped the more idealistic side of him and he&rsquo;s now focused on the pragmatic side of things. His previous naiveness and idealism has been replaced a more literal outlook of things. But that doesn&rsquo;t mean he&rsquo;s all the wiser for it. His dismissive of the treasure of knowledge is as childish as his empty boasts about the Young Dragon in AGOT. Is during his trip beyond the Wall where he learns to balance between these 2 stances.

I very much agree with this. I think it's really easy to overlook some of these less admirable or even flawed bits of Jon's character here in light of the personal strides he makes adjacently. I feel these early chapters are often a case of "step forward, a step back, " or at the very least, not a seamless improvement on all fronts.

On a side note, the Raven says a string of interesting bits (in this order) :

Snow (when Jon enters, unprompted)

Me (repeating Mormont wrt himself)

Old (repeating Mormont wrt himself)

Fool (repeating Mormont wrt Sam)

King (repeating Mormont wrt "dragonkings")

[redviper9]

Thee was a great observation back in the first thread that one of Jon's skills was his ability to take advice, learn from others and develop. This is an interesting example that this can be a slow process - Tyrion II AGOT "a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge" Jon is told, but this isn't something he has absorbed yet clearly.

I just want to say that I really like the way you articulated this as a sliding scale of essentially force ("martial prowess") and intellectual pursuits, on which Jon hasn't fully struck the balance. Lummel's right-- I thought of Tyrion's early lesson too, here, that he apparently hadn't taken to heart about the books. I think it's really interesting the different rates at which Jon takes these various lessons to heart; Donal's talk changes his attitude 180, but he's much slower to understand the significance of the library and books generally. With that said, though, he is very quick to speak up and articulate the practical applications of the materials Sam procured when Mormont asks. It's not as though Jon doesn't understand certain applications of knowledge.

Excellent points by both of you regarding Tyrion's remarks to Jon about reading books -- I had completely forgotten about that exchange, and it does seem quite relevant to this particular chapter and Jon's attitude in it.

[Ragnorak]

I like the discussion about Jon's reaction to the books. For me Jon's pragmatism mitigated a bit of my typically anti-book treasure distaste. As Lummel pointed, Jon hasn't reached a point where he has internalized the lesson about the value of books. This is an interesting benchmark for his evolution.

I also find this revealing in terms of the talk of Kings. Noye mentions Robert who had great martial prowess but was (to put it gently) a poor King. Then we have Robb who will become the Young Wolf and parallel Jon's idol the Young Dragon followed by Aemon as a potential King who represents a purely intellectual King with little martial prowess. There is a spectrum of leadership from martial to intellectual but also a transition in aspects leadership-- Robert from rebel leader to King and Robb from Lord of Winterfell to King. Martial prowess gets you only so far and at some point one has to adapt and incorporate the more intellectual pursuits of leadership. Robb, Robert, and Aemon all offer a variety of contrasts to the paths Jon will and won't take as well as to how he transitions as a leader once he becomes Lord Commander.

<snip>

Snow (when Jon enters, unprompted)

Me (repeating Mormont wrt himself)

Old (repeating Mormont wrt himself)

Fool (repeating Mormont wrt Sam)

King (repeating Mormont wrt "dragonkings")

There was also a "strong" repeated three times (after "old") in reference to the strongest ravens Mormont wanted though Mormont's own strength was a topic earlier from Smallwood's comments and Mormont seemed to harp on the issue throughout their conversation.

"Me" from the raven seemed to be in response to Smallwood's "me" though Mormont throws the word back at Smallwood with “but it seems to me that I have not died yet, nor have the brothers put you in my place.”

There's also this with regard to the raven's "King"

“King,” the bird said again.

“I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.”

“The realm has three kings already, and that’s two too many for my liking.” Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

He’d seen the harbinger that had come to Maester Aemon with word of summer’s end, the great raven of the Citadel, white and silent as Ghost.

The Ghost connection is interesting considering Bran's naming of Summer. The silent part also makes the Patchface "Lord" address from the raven in the prologue all the more curious.

Given the Varys riddle about power and shadows this line stood out:

All in black, he was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair, long of face, grey of eye.

A little irony

“If it happens that we’re all butchered out there, I mean for my successor to know where and how we died.”

[Winterfellian]

Given the Varys riddle about power and shadows this line stood out:

That particular line also caught my attention and I interpreted in a different manner but I really like how you associated it with Varys riddle!

All in black, he was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair, long of face, greyof eye.

In AGOT Jon describes Tyrion’s shadow during his first chapter and Sam’s during his last one. He first describes the shadow of a perceived kindred outcast like himself to close describing that of a brother and friend. Unlike the previous descriptions, in this case Jon is not separating the person from the shadow, but saying he, Jon, is a shadow before describing his own features. The idea of a shadow suggests something that we can’t see clearly, that is hidden and not manifested openly. Jon’s parentage is hidden beneath his Stark features- dark of hair, long face and grey of eye.

Furthermore, the other shadows described by Jon in AGOT are both projected over outdoor spaces. Jon is lost among other shadows in a place mostly forgotten and full with books. I might be pushing it, but see a connection to Rhaegar over the place given that we know he was something of a bookworm and all the talk of dead Targaryen would be Kings imperating in this chapter.

The other reason this line catches my attention is because shadows seem to acquire very interesting connotations in this book. Ragnorak mentioned Varys' riddle but we also have Melissandre's introduction and with her an entirely new outlook at the concept of shadows. Given this, I can't help but remember this quote, also from ACOK:

The brightest flame casts the darkest shadow.

The light that illuminates the vault comes from a faint yellow glow filtered through the stacks from some hidden lamp. Despite the fact that Jon is dressed all in black his is not necessarily a dark shadow.

[Harlaw's Book]

Just to throw this musing out there, maybe Jon’s attitude toward the library is another manifestation of his not being interested in the Seven. Considering that the earliest written histories were written by septons, septons are still charged with writing duties, septons are librarians, and the First Men’s written tradition limited to runes, it appears books are something more associated with Andals than they are with First Men. And I think Jon’s rejection of the Seven is kind of a coping mechanism for how he deals with not knowing the other half of his heritage.

The “Do what you want…I swore a vow,” line suggested a few things to me. First, it reminds me of AGOT Jon III when Jon quickly and completely decided to embrace Tyrion’s negative view of the Night’s Watch once he realized it wasn’t the idealized version he thought it would. I think both of these instances demonstrate Jon’s tendency to quickly and dramatically change his viewpoint. And once he decides what he will follow, he tends to become very committed to it. How negative or positive this trait is depends on what Jon advocates for. Secondly, it might be a sign that Jon still carries guilt about staying with the Night’s Watch. If he couldn’t break his vow to march with Robb and save his sisters, then he can’t in good conscious break his vow for his own personal gratification. Finally, influenced by the second point, the “I swore a vow” line sets up a big part of Jon’s ACOK storyline of him trying to be the ideal man of the Night’s Watch through strict adherence to both the vow and the conventions that have become a part of the Watch.

Since many of Mormont’s predictions for Robb didn’t come true, I wonder how right or wrong he will be about Jon’s future and how many of the things he predicted for Robb will happen to Jon.

[Mladen]

snip

Wonderful analysis, butterbumps! As always you raise many interesting questions, and answer them even more interestingly. Rare talent :)

I`ll focus now on bunch of Targaryen history we`ve been given in this chapter. You would think, that with Targaryen heiress, the chapter of choice for deeper Targaryen history will be Dany`s. That data about Targaryen Kings will be found in her chapters, not the chapter of a bastard member oif NW, son of Usurper`s dog? That very same distinction between Dany and Jon is what truly matters. Yes, the most important battle is in front of Jon, the Others have awaken after 8000 years, but the recent history can teach you what to do in times like Wo5K. Mormont doesn`t prepare Jon for the battle, he is preparing him to rule. And to rule someone, you need to understand what happened before you. After all, what Asha`s uncle said, history is like a wheel. It will always repeat. So, one of the clues about Jon`s parentage isn`t just excess Targaryen history lessons in his chapter than also lack of them in Dany`s.

Boys will always be boys, right? Give them swords and they`ll think they could conquer the world. Well, Robb won every battle, and look how it served him. The problem is that, what Tywin says, wars can also be won by quill and ink. Swords are good, but far from being essential in the war. Dismissing that is to make a grave mistake. Knowledge is in a way power, and a weapon. And the soon Jon realized that in the future book, he lerant that some wars can`t be won by mere swords. Luckily for him, he got that message before it was too late.

What we learnt about Jon in this chapter is that he would betray NW for brother, but never for the King. Robb`s title evokes bitter jealously in Jon, and he is where we find him in his first POV in aGOT. Among commoners, far from Kings and Queens, and with bitter taste in his mouth. We may grow up, but some wounds never heal. And Jon will always be hurt by his position, but that would never lead him on the road of vengeance and self-destruction.

[nenya~]

In AGOT Jon describes Tyrion’s shadow during his first chapter and Sam’s during his last one.

The light that illuminates the vault comes from a faint yellow glow filtered through the stacks from some hidden lamp. Despite the fact that Jon is dressed all in black his is not necessarily a dark shadow.

I'm glad you brought up the Mel's quote on shadows because it reminded me of a MMD quote on them as well.

“The grave casts long shadows, Iron Lord,” Mirri said. “Long and dark, and in the end no light can hold them back.”

Mel says that flames cast shadows, but MMD speaks of graves (Ygritte also mentions Mance digging up graves and releasing shades). I do wonder if this could be possible foreshadowing with them being referred to as shadows and being somewhat associated with death (Tyrion with greyscale?, and Jon's possible ressurection), but I'm not sure what the "light" could refer to...dragons, Red Priests, fire, AA, etc? I'm probably looking too much into it though. It could just be that they are "great" and there is very little that can hold them back from that "greatness."

Btw, I never said this before but I absolutely love this thread! You guys discuss everything so thoroughly that I just never have anything else to add.

Oh, and I also have the kindle version of all 3 Dunk and Egg stories.

[Lummel]

...The “Do what you want…I swore a vow,” line suggested a few things to me. First, it reminds me of AGOT Jon III when Jon quickly and completely decided to embrace Tyrion’s negative view of the Night’s Watch once he realized it wasn’t the idealized version he thought it would. I think both of these instances demonstrate Jon’s tendency to quickly and dramatically change his viewpoint. And once he decides what he will follow, he tends to become very committed to it. How negative or positive this trait is depends on what Jon advocates for. Secondly, it might be a sign that Jon still carries guilt about staying with the Night’s Watch...

He seems to have turned into ultra vow keeper over night so I suspect that he also feels guilt for trying to run away and break his vow in the previous chapter.