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[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

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As a book reader, i was pretty much on the edge of my seat the entire episode. I knew exactly what was coming. It didn't disappoint either. In fact, the scene looked almost exactly how i pictured it in my head, even to how Roslin Frey looked. Once they showed her face, i was like "Robb you stupid motherfucker!" because i knew he was going to get it and i realized that he didn't even LOOK at any of Frey's daughters to begin with. You could almost see it in his eyes when he saw her like, "Man, i fucked up.". He swore an oath to Frey that he would marry one of his daughters and a oath/vow in general is sacred(particularly in those times) but the oath of a King is HUGE. Walder Frey took it as the last straw, the final spit in the face, and decided that he was going to take vengeance on the people who pissed on him for so long. Not saying what Frey did was justified, but Robb made a lot of STUPID decisions(That irony of which that most of them were decisions his Father never would've made) and either one of them could've came back to cost him his life. Final thoughts on the scene, and i know this will sound terrible, but i kinda laughed when Catelyn got her throat slit at the end. There was the long pause and then this guy comes up and then *cuts* and fade to credits.

As for the other stuff:

1. I liked the banter between Arya and The Hound, there's great chemistry between the two.

2. I'm starting to like Jon again, i like how he gutted the warg and basically told him to screw off. Things are about to go DOWN on the wall. Which makes me think of how much they've mishandled Mance, i almost forgot he existed.

3. Bran's story has finally become semi interesting again, but you know i actually think the show focusing on the wild adventures of Rickon and Osha would be more interesting than all the warg crap. But it will never happen.

This and Blackwater are the two best episodes of the show and i think the next season will have even greater moments.

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I already posted this in another forum, but I'm going to post it here too.

Good episode, but I expected much better. Way better. Maybe it's my own fault for getting my expectations really high, but the amount of unnecessary changes they made in this episode was way too much. So much that it heavily deteriorated the quality of the product.

Let's see:

- Blackfish being in the Red Wedding instead of being in Riverrun.

- Arya being hit by a fist instead of an axe - Missed chance of even more suspense/outrage for non book readers, considering most people would wonder about her fate.

- Roslin not crying when the bedding started - Such a little thing but at the same time a very nice touch who added a lot to the drama of the scene. Can't understand why they didn't include this.

- Roose executing Robb - Why in the hell didn't they go with the way he was executed by Roose in the books. It was so much better.

- "The Lannisters send their regards" - It should be "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" - How hard could this be? One of the most iconic lines in the series. Yes, it may seem such a minor thing to most, but I'm really disappointed at this. Not to mention that the correct line will probably have a lot more importance in the future.

- Where was the Greatjon? They put the Blackfish there, who shouldn't really be there, but don't show the Greatjon? C'mon now.

- Even though this is not their fault, considering it was a thought in the books, it would be incredibly nice if they included the "No, not my hair, Ned loves my hair". It would make the scene even more dramatic and emotional.

- Catelyn not clawing her face and laughing hysterically, therefore showing her descent into madness and extreme grief. Michelle Fairley proved she could do it, and yet, for some reason, this was not included. Again, the inclusion of this would make the whole scene much much better. Much more emotional, powerful, sinister, eerie and creepy. A thousand times better.

All of this changes were absolutely unnecessary, they could easily do it the right and much better way. That's why I'm irritated by it.

With all of this said, it's still worth to mention that it was still a good episode, it was still emotional and powerful and yes, I felt a little depressed when it ended.

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What about GreatJon Umber ?

Why we couldn't see him in the entire third season ? Will be captive or not ?

Clive Mantle is a great actor, it's pity.

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What about GreatJon Umber ?

Why we couldn't see him in the entire third season ? Will be captive or not ?

Clive Mantle is a great actor, it's pity.

I'm hoping since they mentioned Last Hearth and the Umbers last episode they'll bring back Clive.

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I found it particularly great/cruel that Edmure's wife was so pretty - it really punches people in the gut knowing that Robb basically blew it all - and like his father, didn't know how to play the game of thrones

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- Blackfish being in the Red Wedding instead of being in Riverrun.

- Arya being hit by a fist instead of an axe - Missed chance of even more suspense/outrage for non book readers, considering most people would wonder about her fate.

- Roslin not crying when the bedding started - Such a little thing but at the same time a very nice touch who added a lot to the drama of the scene. Can't understand why they didn't include this.

- Roose executing Robb - Why in the hell didn't they go with the way he was executed by Roose in the books. It was so much better.

- "The Lannisters send their regards" - It should be "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" - How hard could this be? One of the most iconic lines in the series. Yes, it may seem such a minor thing to most, but I'm really disappointed at this. Not to mention that the correct line will probably have a lot more importance in the future.

- Where was the Greatjon? They put the Blackfish there, who shouldn't really be there, but don't show the Greatjon? C'mon now.

- Even though this is not their fault, considering it was a thought in the books, it would be incredibly nice if they included the "No, not my hair, Ned loves my hair". It would make the scene even more dramatic and emotional.

- Catelyn not clawing her face and laughing hysterically, therefore showing her descent into madness and extreme grief. Michelle Fairley proved she could do it, and yet, for some reason, this was not included. Again, the inclusion of this would make the whole scene much much better. Much more emotional, powerful, sinister, eerie and creepy. A thousand times better.

All of this changes were absolutely unnecessary, they could easily do it the right and much better way. That's why I'm irritated by it.

With all of this said, it's still worth to mention that it was still a good episode, it was still emotional and powerful and yes, I felt a little depressed when it ended.

1) Blackfish. Yes, I preferred him staying in Riverrun, but I understood it. He was developed as a loyal man to Robb and family member, so it made sense to put him in the entourage.

2) Arya. While that plays in the books, it would've been trite as hell on screen. What was done was effective. The reason why we were worried in the books is because it simply said that she took an axe to her head, whereas how do you show that in the TV show while being worried about her death? In the books, you have no idea if its the blunt side or the blade. Sandor's fist did the trick.

3) Roslin's lack of crying was due to the producers not wanting to let on about the impending doom. If she cried, it would've tipped people off even more than they were.

4) I agree, I would've preferred him to kill Robb as in the book. The drive by stabbing lacked a lot of gravitas.

5) Jamie is on his redemption arc. Bolton mentioning that makes like Jamie was the architect rather than Tywin.

6) Clive Mantel and the producers had a falling out, hence why he did not return for season 2. I really was saddened by this because he was one of the best characters in the TV show.

7) The hair comment was an internal thought and would have been the dumbest shit ever to say out loud. No one would've understood it. We get lots of cool little easter eggs as readers throughout the season, that would not have been an appropriate use of one.

8) Plays in the book, doesn't really play on screen. You need to understand that just because it works on paper doesn't mean it translates to the screen. While I believe that falling into catatonia was kind of a cop-out, I do believe that the self mutilation was forgone because of Lady Stoneheart. Same reason that Tyrion still has a nose. Her going insane would not have made it any more powerful than it was, it just would've detracted from what was actually happening. Michelle killed it.

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Watched it again today. Still just exasperated. Amazing how I knew it was coming and still just how impactful that was. 2 new thoughts.

At first I wasn't to happy with the way they handled Grey Wind. I originally wished for him to go out fighting like he actually did. However, watching again and thinking about it I think the way they did it was better. For many people (myself included) its more difficult to watch animals/pets die than people on tv shows. They obviously had to show this but hid most of him so we got the point. Otherwise they would have prob showed a graphic axe to the head full body shot of poor Grey Wind which would have been bitterly tough.

And I have never felt a bigger pit form in my stomach or a bigger sense of dread during a movie/show as I felt when they started playing 'rains' at the wedding and Cat gets that look on her face. Just never imagined they could get it to be that brutal.

Edited by Rmg1313

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Ok so what changes did the producers make?

1: Greywind growling at the Freys = I can understand how it might tip off unsullied

2: Roslin not being sad = Again I can understand how it might tip off unsullied

3: Blackfish present = I'm on the fence. Well at least they made him take a piss but will he go back to riverrun?

4: Talisa getting stabbed in the belly = For the better ... I reckon all book readers got a shock out of that

5: No Greatjon or smalljohn throwing a table over Robb = Definitely a loss

6: No Manderly = Where was he?

7: "Rain" song not continuing = For the better

8: Bolton wearing Mail and getting slapped: For the better

9: Bolton stabbing Robb = Book version was much better. I always imagined they would show him walking up to robb from behind , focusing on his legs first. Then , he stabs Robb with the sword lingering

10: Cat cutting Frey's wife = For the better. It had more impact.

11: Cat not clawing her face off = For the better. The book version was better but it would not have adapted well on screen.

12: Grey wind not getting freed = Again , it would have been cool but I don't think they could have pulled it off well on screen so for the better.

So overall , good adaptation.

Edited by Underzaker

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Agree with Lord Elrosir's response almost completely. I thought this episode was spectacular.

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6)No Manderly, Mormont, Glover and Umble. I wonder if they will introduce (or reintroduce) all of them later.

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It was awesome - loved that it was more of a mob hit than some epic battle. And I'm still amazed anyone cares about the bannermen not being there. By the reaction of the people that haven't read the books, it wasn't missed.

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All of this changes were absolutely unnecessary, they could easily do it the right and much better way. That's why I'm irritated by it.

You forgot to add "in my opinion" because in my opinion, many of the changes were necessary to successfully translate to the screen. The only one I agree with you 100% on is Roose's killing blow. Robb should have collapsed after "Mother" and then Roose takes him out.

6: No Manderly = Where was he?

Sitting next to the Blackfish. No lines and no name in the credits but he's there. And the North remembers.

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The Freys are some of the most alarming looking characters I think I've seen in any television show. I remember thinking how odd the two Freys that came to parlay with the Tully-Starks were. They all have the creepiness factor down packed!

I loved how they had the superficial Edmure in suspense about his bride. They introduced all of Walder Frey's unattractive daughters then kept Roslin back until the moment they were to exchange vows. She is VERY pretty! I also loved how she was calm during the ceremony, unlike book Roslin who was a sobbing mess every time she was shown. The ceremony itself was pretty and jolly, regardless of how I felt about the killin's (oh, Hagrid!) and the music was great. I liked that they had the orchestra capable, instead of playing horribly.

Also, loved the addition of the Twins in the opening credits! Quick question though.. right before the Twins and after Dragonstone, they breezed over an Inn.. which Inn was it? Everytime I tried to pause it, my comcast bar was in the way :(

On a side note, can I take a brief moment to say how much I enjoy Edmure?? He's just so silly and superficial and I think that it makes him kind of endearing.

He really thought he was doing something with that Mill situation. How cute!

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Watched it again today. Still just exasperated. Amazing how I knew it was coming and still just how impactful that was. 2 new thoughts.

At first I wasn't to happy with the way they handled Grey Wind. I originally wished for him to go out fighting like he actually did. However, watching again and thinking about it I think the way they did it was better. For many people (myself included) its more difficult to watch animals/pets die than people on tv shows. They obviously had to show this but hid most of him so we got the point. Otherwise they would have prob showed a graphic axe to the head full body shot of poor Grey Wind which would have been bitterly tough.

One of the more baffling aspects of Western culture tbh. I wouldn't have minded him getting an axe to the head. Honestly, considering that a pregnant woman just got stabbed in the fucking stomach I'd be really disturbed if that was their main motivation for not showing it.

I'm wondering if we'll see Grey Wind's head on Robb's boy or Cat thrown naked into the river. The latter seems more likely. The former...too gruesome for even this show?

6)No Manderly, Mormont, Glover and Umble. I wonder if they will introduce (or reintroduce) all of them later.

It'll take them about three lines to do so when the time comes.

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There is one small detail I just realized:

They showed Orell warging before he died. So in a way he DID have Varamyr's role in the end. I just wonder if people will remember this detail come season - erm - six?

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