[Book Spoilers] What about Shae in Season 4?

[Colonel Green]

Shae being Tywin's spy is going to be the new "Talisa is a Lannister spy" in the fandom.

[Joyful Union]

I myself still do not believe that Tywin would bed Shae. It's just so ridiculously out of character. If Martin had placed a few more subtle hints that maybe Tywin visited whores on occasion than maybe it would be easier to swallow. Even more ridiculously unlikely is that Tywin would actually let Shae borrow his chain. Therefore, in the Books, the non-OOC way this is acceptable to me is if it was part of Varys' plan.

Hopefully they find some way around this in the show, perhaps making it clear it was a setup, blackmail, or that Tywin had been whoring in the past, anything to make it seem so supremely random.

[Lord Elrosir]

Thats why Tyrion gave her a chain. She won't be wearing Tywin's hand of the king chain.

[Joyful Union]

Thats why Tyrion gave her a chain. She won't be wearing Tywin's hand of the king chain.

Ah, yes, totally forgot about that. Hopefully this will lead to a much more believable sequence of events (from my point of view ofc, I realise others will certainly disagree).

[GREYJOY4LYFE]

The single biggest shocker? There was a lot of subtle hints if you pay attention to how a relationship develops. Actually this was one of the things I completely expected to happen. But again Shae's betrayal was done much in the same vein as Red Wedding in the books. The show apparently can only do sudden twists and shockers.

I so hope they do a twist here.

Just saying from my experience that threw me off way more than the red wedding, I knew Robb and Catelyn were entering a dangerous situation. Martin has a great way of makings things seem so obvious in hindsight though.

[Wouter]

I myself still do not believe that Tywin would bed Shae. It's just so ridiculously out of character. If Martin had placed a few more subtle hints that maybe Tywin visited whores on occasion than maybe it would be easier to swallow.

I think there was a hint, of sorts. It was mentioned that one Hand had a tunnel built to be able to visit whores (Chataya's?) secretly. It wasn't said which Hand, but in hindsight Tywin looks like a very good candidate. Varys seemed to say as much, with his "now you know what he [Tywin] was".

Granted, Varys was also busy manipulating Tyrion, but the tunnel at least was real.

[Joyful Union]

I think there was a hint, of sorts. It was mentioned that one Hand had a tunnel built to be able to visit whores (Chataya's?) secretly. It wasn't said which Hand, but in hindsight Tywin looks like a very good candidate. Varys seemed to say as much, with his "now you know what he [Tywin] was".

Granted, Varys was also busy manipulating Tyrion, but the tunnel at least was real.

Oh yes, I realise about the tunnel, which is why I specified a few more subtle hints. That alone was just not enough to make it believable for me. It irritates me because generally Martin is so good at foreshadowing and hints, but in Tywin's case it seemed largely absent apart from that one tunnel hint. At least with Aegon you had that line of prophecy.

[GREYJOY4LYFE]

Tywin didn't remarry after Joanna's death. His father was prone to whoring and obviously his son is a big whore monger. All men have needs. I think he definitely regarded it as a vice and he was ashamed of it but even the great Tywin Lannister can have his weaknesses.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

IMHO, letting a whore wear his chain of office is straying into what Tywin hates about Tyrion - letting whores forget their place and discrediting one's position. And leaving her alone in one's bedroom is much too trusting.

Also, it is middle of the night - would Tywin really want to go to sleep beside a whore? I dunno, all this makes no sense to me.

The whole tragic nature of Tywin and Tyrion's relationship, is that they're so similar in so many ways. I think this was just showing you that they both have the same weakness, women. Even though Shae is a whore, neither can help but fall in love with her. It also fits Tywin's personality. As I just posted in another thread, I think he has textbook Narcissistic Personality Disorder, so this is part of it. He cannot concieve of a world where she ISN'T in love with him as well.

[Agromono]

What if Shae replaces Dontos? She's already stated here massive devotion to Sansa--perhaps Littlefinger, on his return to King's Landing, decides to play on this and gets Shae to convince Sansa to leave KL (since Sansa already trusts Shae). She's then killed by Baelish. I realise this robs Tyrion of his big moment but they've already whitewashed him so much on the TV show it would not surprise me if they did it even more. Not that I would particularly be against such a change since I respect all of D&D's decisions, but I do think it's a possibility. I don't think we'll be seeing Dontos any more; if he were to appear he should have done so a long time ago and he's very much out of viewer's minds now.

[GREYJOY4LYFE]

The whole tragic nature of Tywin and Tyrion's relationship, is that they're so similar in so many ways. I think this was just showing you that they both have the same weakness, women. Even though Shae is a whore, neither can help but fall in love with her. It also fits Tywin's personality. As I just posted in another thread, I think he has textbook Narcissistic Personality Disorder, so this is part of it. He cannot concieve of a world where she ISN'T in love with him as well.

I don't think Tywin thought any whore was in love with him. He knows exactly what whores are and why they would be interested in him. It's more like he wants to have sex and can't really control himself.

[Gannicus]

Tywin was definitely whoring, that much is obvious. He was clearly sleeping with Shea that was also obvious in the book.

The show might change it up.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

I don't think Tywin thought any whore was in love with him. He knows exactly what whores are and why they would be interested in him. It's more like he wants to have sex and can't really control himself.

... And yet there she was in the Tower of the Hand, wearing his chain. Im telling you, Tywin hates Tyrion mostly because they're the same person in so many ways. Tywin is just discreet about it.

[MachoGrande]

Come on, would Tywin really forsake sex entirely since Tyrion was born? I don't say urges can't be controlled but I definitely wouldn't expect a man to remain abstinent even 20 or 30 years after his wive's death. And since Tywin didn't remarry, whores seem only like a logical conclusion. I think it's quite realistic and adds a lot more depth to Tywin's character - like apsects of hypocrisy, shame or the fact that Tyrion is really "Tywin's son".

[Colonel Green]

I don't think we'll be seeing Dontos any more

The producers have already said that we will see him again.

[The Anti-Targ]

Well if the Varys planted Shae in Tywin's bed theory is true then having Shae be all goody two shoes isn't incompatible with that, and the tragedy of Tyrion killing her because he thinks she betrayed him is still a strong pull on the audience.

[Maia]

Come on, would Tywin really forsake sex entirely since Tyrion was born?

Well, we do have a number of honorable characters that did forsake it - knights of the Kingsguard at Aerys's time except for Prince Lewyn, Benjen Stark, maester Aemon, possibly Lord Hoster Tully (who was also in his thirties, loved his wife and lost her under similar circumstances), etc. It looks like Connington was celibate too - yes he is a homosexual, but a drive is a drive, right?

Just because Tywin didn't subscribe to most of their ideals and could be termed "evil" doesn't mean that he would have less control over his libido than they.

He was a very strong-willed, disciplined man. If he thought that abstinence was the way to go, why wouldn't he manage it? Particularly since whoring is also dangerous to one's health, as seen on example of Tywin's own brother Tygett, who died from an STD caught from a whore.

If Tywin couldn't control himself, I'd expect him to pick a discreet widow from small nobility for the purpose instead of running some elaborate cloak and dagger operation over something so trivial.

Furthermore, if Tywin had such problems with controlling his own sex drive, he definitely should have picked up on the fact that something was wrong with Jaime, who was supposedly celibate from the age of 15 (!) and not early-mid thirties as Tywin himself would have been. I can buy the abstemious Tywin being plausibly deluded about the incest - after all, if he himself could refrain from sex, it would be only natural to think that Jaime could do it too.

Not to mention, that it makes Tywin's refusal to re-marry even after Jaime was taken into KG all the more irrational and stupid.

I think it's quite realistic and adds a lot more depth to Tywin's character - like apsects of hypocrisy, shame or the fact that Tyrion is really "Tywin's son".

Not to me. To me, it made Tywin flatter and dumber and less believable. IMHO, it was quite interesting that despite everything Tywin had it in him to harbor deep and abiding love and devotion to somebody. Even to the degree of selfish obsession.

Whore-monger Tywin is just an idiot, who complicated his life, weakened his House with his refusal to re-marry and opened himself to ridicule, if discovered, for nothing. And are we supposed to think that Varys didn't discover it and report it to Aerys? And that Aerys didn't use it as an ammunition to publicly humiliate Tywin in their bad last days together?

Nah, GRRM is the master of his story, of course, and if he decided to go there then it's his right, but it opens lots of plot holes and flattens multi-faceted characters, IMHO.

Oh, and Tyrion would be nothing like whore-monger Tywin. Tyrion whored, among other things, because he was looking for human warmth, which, as he believed after the Tysha incident, nobody would give him voluntarily. Given a chance, Tyrion would have happily settled for one woman. Nor was he ashamed of his whoring.

Why would whore-monger Tywin do it, though? Because evil, dishonorable people have to also be promiscous? Because he wouldn't be smart enough to manage his needs in safer and less humiliating (to himself, since it was such a hot issue for him) manner?

[GREYJOY4LYFE]

Come on, would Tywin really forsake sex entirely since Tyrion was born? I don't say urges can't be controlled but I definitely wouldn't expect a man to remain abstinent even 20 or 30 years after his wive's death. And since Tywin didn't remarry, whores seem only like a logical conclusion. I think it's quite realistic and adds a lot more depth to Tywin's character - like apsects of hypocrisy, shame or the fact that Tyrion is really "Tywin's son".

Precisely.

[Newstar]

TV Shae's writing and characterization have been all over the map in Season 3. I can't figure out where they're going with her or what they're setting up. I think it will be clear in hindsight at the end of Season 4 what the writers were trying to get at, sort of like the Gendry/Melisandre plot detour (which in hindsight seemed like the writers started at that Gendry/Davos conversation in 3x10 about being lowborn and Davos' son and worked backwards to see how they could get there). Right now, though, I have no clue.

The only thing I'm confident about is that Shae isn't yet sleeping with Tywin or spying for him.

[Ross1]

TV Shae's writing and characterization have been all over the map in Season 3. I can't figure out where they're going with her or what they're setting up.

I kind of agree.... They have made a few insinuations that she would be willing to be the person to smuggle Sansa out of KL... and it would be a convient way to get rid of her without having to make her "turn heel", as it were. Yet it still feels a little unlikely. As has been said, we have been told dontos is coming back, and it feels like a fairly big diversion from the book, and would mean having to change Tyrions character in S5+

in the last scene we had Varys offering her a deal to go away. Her just walking away seems more far fetched, but she does assume it was Tyrion who asked Varys to talk to her, in which case it could be an attempt to further the rift between them and make her betrayal more believable.

The books obviously doesnt have anything from her POV, so we never quite find out exactly how it all transpired. While cersei clearly has the motive to blackmail her into testfying against tyrion, that doesnt really get her into bed with tywin. So we almost need tywin to blackmail shae, but he doesnt really have to motive. Its a difficult one to make work.

im not sure it would really destroy tywins character. We already see how willing he is to commit atrocities like RW. If the show can make clear oberyn is there because the promise of dorne getting the mountain as justice for elia was not kept, then it will also show he does not "pay his debts". If we also get the truth from jaime about tysha, then I dont think anyone should be surprised to see tywin taking shae for himself. The problem will be shaes character assassination, not tywins.