TheKitttenGuard Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 She never thought that her family would get to come to her wedding, which is completely delusional and would require her to completely forget everything that has and is happening around her. That's not "fantasy" or "naivete". Deslusional like wanting to go to Queen to stay. Forgotting how she order the death of her Direwolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashtibram Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 The show's Sansa works. She's not quite book Sansa, but none of the characters are the exact equivalents of their book counterparts: that's to be expected in an adaptation. Tyrion is more amiable, Stannis more apathetic, Cersei less hysterical. How strongly you feel about these changes depends, first and foremost, on how much you care about their character in the novels, and how much you are dying to see a 100% faithful on-screen portrayal. In any case, however, you have to understand that in the context of the show, their characterization all makes sense. In season 2, Sansa is in the process of settling into the extended and horrible life she has laid out for her as Joffrey's wife. She is warier, becomes less naive, and slowly develops a more manipulative personality. In season 3, however, she's faced with a much better set of circumstances: she's no longer being forced into what will surely be an abusive marriage, she's no longer a strictly confined prisoner, and, most importantly, there emerges the very real possibility that she'll be leaving the capitol (whether through Littlefinger or the Tyrells) sometime in the immediate future. It is only natural that she lets down her guard a little bit, and becomes a little bit more naive than her cynically depressed S2 counterpart. Yes, there were some unnecessary jokes made at her expense ("Yes, dear, my mother taught me," "That's the vulgar word for dung," "Do you think they'll let my family come to the wedding," etc.) but you can't pretend that she wasn't a bit of an idiot in the novels as well. People seem to be forgetting that her first conversation with Loras was taken almost word-for-word from the books, and the second one is not by any means a wild departure from how she often tended to think about him. And, to attempt to refute a common criticism, her character wasn't only responding to external stimulus in S3. The difference between her sneaking out into the Godswood at night and her being approached by Littlefinger in the season 3 premiere is incredibly minor and overly exaggerated (don't forget she's the one who broached the topic with him in that particular encounter), and in any case it would make no sense for her to be sneaking out of the Red Keep at night when she's apparently at liberty to go sit by the docks with her handmaiden during the daytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Deslusional like wanting to go to Queen to stay. Forgotting how she order the death of her Direwolf. That's from book one. Sansa has changed enormously since then; she is certainly very aware of the fact that there's a bloody war going on and that her family won't be coming to her wedding. Even her dreamiest fantasies of Willas didn't go that far (said fantasies also very quickly became heavily tinged with sadness that is completely absent from the show). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 That's from book one. Sansa has changed enormously since then; she is certainly very aware of the fact that there's a bloody war going on and that her family won't be coming to her wedding. Even her dreamiest fantasies of Willas didn't go that far (said fantasies also very quickly became heavily tinged with sadness that is completely absent from the show). When Sansa was offer Willas and Highgarden she did have a regression back to her AGOT self. Have not read passage in awhile. I know it is not a wedding but I do believe she thought she will still ser her family one day. "The truth is either terrible or boring" is pretty melancholy. The ships going were leaving a terrible place and she is not on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tommen Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I would say Sansa's continued hope in the books that Dontos would serve the Jonquil/Florian dynamic is a good sign that she was still holding on to the naive ideas she had when she first came to King's Landing. And let's not forget that her whole escape plan was not her idea and it was in fact a plot to actively manipulate her throughout the entire process. I still fail to see how highlighting her "agency" over this time is some great triumph. She's once again being moved around like a pawn by those who are much smarter than her. I think the show had their fill of using her as a pawn in S3 and I think it's a good idea to not have her enter into yet another character's plot of which she is simply following orders. The Jonquil/Florian stuff with Dontos in the books was especially painful and it's the right decision to eject all of that stuff. I think getting her out of King's Landing at this point after everything that's happened to her in S3 (many more manipulation plots than existed in the books) should be more of a spur of the moment thing where she doesn't have time to consider whether this is yet another trick or not. I would think having yet another character approach her now and say "Hey, I've got this idea for you to escape." and to have her go along willingly after having the football ripped away from her Charlie Brown-style so many other times would be too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I think the show had their fill of using her as a pawn in S3 and I think it's a good idea to not have her enter into yet another character's plot of which she is simply following orders. The Jonquil/Florian stuff with Dontos in the books was especially painful and it's the right decision to eject all of that stuff. I think getting her out of King's Landing at this point after everything that's happened to her in S3 (many more manipulation plots than existed in the books) should be more of a spur of the moment thing where she doesn't have time to consider whether this is yet another trick or not. I would think having yet another character approach her now and say "Hey, I've got this idea for you to escape." and to have her go along willingly after having the football ripped away from her Charlie Brown-style so many other times would be too much. How is it any better to just have her snatched completely unawares? That makes her even more of a pawn. Moreover, I don't see how it makes her look bad that she accepts an escape offer. She's desperate to escape, to go anywhere; staying in King's Landing is absolutely not an option for her her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 IDK, after today's reading I fear that Sansa's agency in book 3 (going home) is completely annulled by the TV producers. She wanted to go home, when she got that note, she went to Godswood, put all her faith in Dontos, even rejected Sandor, she was a pawn, but she was actually being pawn together with Dontos, and even after her family was slaughtered, she continued to see Dontos in order to escape KL. I simply don't see how they could screwed up that simple storyline... I imagine that is a talent of sort... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tommen Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 How is it any better to just have her snatched completely unawares? That makes her even more of a pawn. Moreover, I don't see how it makes her look bad that she accepts an escape offer. She's desperate to escape, to go anywhere; staying in King's Landing is absolutely not an option for her her. This would be the 3rd offer to escape (LF, Margaery) that she would have accepted on the show and all 3 of them would have involved someone more or less manipulating her for their own means. It's the repetition of the whole thing (which did not exist in the books) that would make her look naive. You're making a massive distinction between her choosing to show up to participate in another character's plan and her being offered an immediate form of escape from a chaotic situation. I don't really think the difference is as big as you're making it out to be and your fixation on this one single plot point isn't allowing for the larger part of her arc this season to play out. Once she ends up with LF, how she got herself out of King's Landing is pretty freaking irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Once she ends up with LF, how she got herself out of King's Landing is pretty freaking irrelevant. But it's very relevant to her characterization how she gets there. The book's story, had it been filmed, would have show Sansa in a very different and much more active light than the show has, where she just stands around (which is what she so often gets incorrectly criticized for in the books*). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanml82 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 IDK, after today's reading I fear that Sansa's agency in book 3 (going home) is completely annulled by the TV producers. She wanted to go home, when she got that note, she went to Godswood, put all her faith in Dontos, even rejected Sandor, she was a pawn, but she was actually being pawn together with Dontos, and even after her family was slaughtered, she continued to see Dontos in order to escape KL. I simply don't see how they could screwed up that simple storyline... I imagine that is a talent of sort... Well, as other posters have said, she was offered two different escape plans last season and, with good reason, rejected one of them. So all that sort of happened, but in a different fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 IDK, after today's reading I fear that Sansa's agency in book 3 (going home) is completely annulled by the TV producers. She wanted to go home, when she got that note, she went to Godswood, put all her faith in Dontos, even rejected Sandor, she was a pawn, but she was actually being pawn together with Dontos, and even after her family was slaughtered, she continued to see Dontos in order to escape KL. I simply don't see how they could screwed up that simple storyline... I imagine that is a talent of sort... She didn't really reject Sandor's offer in the book - unlike in the show, where you can say that she did. In the book, she barely even had the time to register that he offered to take her from KL, and didn't actually say yes or no, before he went berserk, put a knife to her throat asking her to sing, cried and left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 Well, as other posters have said, she was offered two different escape plans last season and, with good reason, rejected one of them. So all that sort of happened, but in a different fashion. Yes, the devil is in the detail here... But, those details are crucial. I mean, she wanted to escape KL... All the time, she wanted to escape, going to Godswood with Dontos, listening to his plans etc... She does stop seeing him briefly after Tyrell offering, but at the end, she was always proactive in what she should do... She didn't really reject Sandor's offer in the book - unlike in the show, where you can say that she did. In the book, she barely even had the time to register that he offered to take her from KL, and didn't actually say yes or no, before he went berserk, put a knife to her throat asking her to sing, cried and left. No, you are right... She was just too frightened to articulate any respond other than singing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixFlame Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 She never thought that her family would get to come to her wedding, which is completely delusional and would require her to completely forget everything that has and is happening around her. That's not "fantasy" or "naivete". To be honest, I took it as her being purposely fanciful. At that point marrying Loras was like Prozac and unicorns. Not acting, more like daydreaming. I totally see why others took it differently though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashtibram Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Yes, the devil is in the detail here... But, those details are crucial. I mean, she wanted to escape KL... All the time, she wanted to escape, going to Godswood with Dontos, listening to his plans etc... She does stop seeing him briefly after Tyrell offering, but at the end, she was always proactive in what she should do... I'm really failing to see how those details are in any way crucial. She was clearly very eager to escape in the show as well, and made active attempts to further her plans with Littlefinger and the Tyrells. Her sneaking out into the Godswood at night would make no sense in the context of the show, as at this point in the story she is no longer a confined and guarded prisoner, and doesn't need to sneak out of the castle to go talk to people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanml82 Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I'm really failing to see how those details are in any way crucial. She was clearly very eager to escape in the show as well, and made active attempts to further her plans with Littlefinger and the Tyrells. Her sneaking out into the Godswood at night would make no sense in the context of the show, as at this point in the story she is no longer a confined and guarded prisoner, and doesn't need to sneak out of the castle to go talk to people. Actually, she's still a guarded prisoner, and that's something the show tried to convey, and failed. If you look at Sansa's scenes outdoors in season 3 you'll always find a couple of armored guards by her. But they're barely seen so it's hard to remember she's a prisoner there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashtibram Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Actually, she's still a guarded prisoner, and that's something the show tried to convey, and failed. If you look at Sansa's scenes outdoors in season 3 you'll always find a couple of armored guards by her. But they're barely seen so it's hard to remember she's a prisoner there. Yes, she's (barely) guarded, but she's still free to wander the grounds, go off into the Godswood, and sit by the docks with her handmaiden if she wants to. She's not locked in her room. Her having to sneak out in the middle of the night to go talk to Dontos/LF would just feel hollow and strange, as they've already conveyed that she can insult Joffrey to the Tyrells and bemoan her captivity with Shae at perfect liberty whenever she wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prince of Newcastle Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I don't think she had much more of an "active role" in her own escape in the books. She was still beings manipulated by Littlefinger at the end of the day. Show Sansa is not quite the same character and she is basically a prop for Tyrion in season 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 I don't think she had much more of an "active role" in her own escape in the books. No, she wasn't having some active role, but her desire to escape shouldn't be diminished by some sort of "escape by accident". She hasn't escaped KL by fortune. Show Sansa is not quite the same character and she is basically a prop for Tyrion in season 3. Sadly, I have to agree. I'm really failing to see how those details are in any way crucial. She was clearly very eager to escape in the show as well, and made active attempts to further her plans with Littlefinger and the Tyrells. Her sneaking out into the Godswood at night would make no sense in the context of the show, as at this point in the story she is no longer a confined and guarded prisoner, and doesn't need to sneak out of the castle to go talk to people. Perhaps, but show does seem to have disconnected Sansa from her desire to go home. When she was married to Tyrion, and episode after that, it is like they show her making peace with her being where she is, which is not the case. She stopped to go to Godswood, only because Olenna offered her another way out, but when that plan became impossible, she continued meeting with Dontos. Not for a single moment has Sansa forgotten her desire to escape KL, which show somehow managed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashtibram Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Perhaps, but show does seem to have disconnected Sansa from her desire to go home. When she was married to Tyrion, and episode after that, it is like they show her making peace with her being where she is, which is not the case. She stopped to go to Godswood, only because Olenna offered her another way out, but when that plan became impossible, she continued meeting with Dontos. Not for a single moment has Sansa forgotten her desire to escape KL, which show somehow managed to do. Maybe, but this is an incredibly minor and inconsequential change, as, in the wake of the Red Wedding, she is right back on track with how her character is supposed to act at this point in the novels. From accounts of the premiere screenings, Tyrion tries to console Sansa and she avidly refuses to be brought around, instead seeking solitude in the Godswood. I just really don't understand how any of the criticisms you and others have put forth justify claims of the show "ruining" her character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 but she's still free to wander the grounds, go off into the Godswood, and sit by the docks with her handmaiden if she wants to. While under guard. Anyway, the argument that they've totally drained tension out of Sansa's story and therefore can't introduce tension isn't a terribly strong one on the show's behalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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