[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa IV - Season 5...

[Mr Fixit]

Yes Swan, it's another piece of evidence that HBO's viewer guide also hates Sansa.

[Annara Snow]

Technically, the guide is not all wrong there. Women take the name of their husbands in the books as well. It's Catelyn Stark, Lysa Arryn, Alerie Tyrell, Olenna Tyrell, and so forth. Cersei is an exception there, because she herself, as well as the POVs surrounding her (Ned, her own family) want to stress the point that she is a Lannister by birth.

House Martell obviously has a special rule regarding the style of any ruling Princesses of Dorne, as well as regarding the naming of the children and it also seems that Rhaenyra Targaryen kept the Targaryen name - although it's technically possible that she was Rhaenyra Velaryon while Laenor was still alive, and reclaimed the Targaryen name when she married her uncle, Prince Daemon Targaryen.

Sansa is also called 'Lady Lannister' after her marriage to Tyrion. But I guess in Sansa and Margaery's case an annulment of the marriage is still possible, due to the fact that it has not been consummated. If Margaery is still a maiden when she marries Tommen in AFfC, it's clear that she still bears her father's name up until she is

There is no indication that highborn women legally take the surname of their husbands. Some of them are referred by their husbands' name, but the same women are usually also referred by their own name. Others, on the other hand, are never referred to by their husbands' name. Catelyn is called both "Lady Stark" and "Catelyn Tully". Lysa is referred to as Lysa Arryn, but I think she's also mentioned as Lysa Tully at times. Selyse is referred to as Selyse Baratheon and Selyse Florent.

Note that the ASOAIF wiki calls Lysa "Lysa Arryn" but Selyse "Selyse Florent", Olenna "Olenna Redwyne" and Catelyn "Catelyn Tully"; while the GoT wiki calls them "Selyse Baratheon", "Olenna Tyrell" and "Catelyn Stark". The TV show seems to enforce the "wife taking on husband's name" in the way that the books don't.

However, even the GoT wiki never refers to Cersei as "Cersei Baratheon", Margaery as "Margaery Baratheon" or Sansa as "Sansa Lannister". (Even though it refers to Elia as "Elia Targaryen", which I couldn't believe at first, since she is never referred to this way in the books, by anyone.)

Cersei is always Cersei Lannister, but she is not the only one. Margaery is always Margaery Tyrell. Genna is always Genna Lannister, not Frey. Elia is always Elia Martell. And Sansa is always Sansa Stark - except when someone is trolling/being an ass on purpose, like Stannis when he's trying to convince Jon to take Winterfell. Calling her "Lady Lannister" was an insult and a political put-down, a way to discredit her, and it sticks like a sore thumb in the books where nobody ever refers to her as a Lannister, but as "Sansa Stark" or "Lady Sansa".

And IMO, there's no way in hell that Rhaenyra Targaryen ever changed her name to Rhaenyra Velaryon. Rhaenys Targaryen never did that, either, and she was married to a Velaryon until her death. I can't see a Targaryen princess ever changing her name to anything else, whoever she marries. And I suspect that it may be similar for many or most of the Starks, Lannisters or Arryns, though it seems that there is no strict rule and a lot depends on the circumstances.

Looking at the above examples, while Sansa's example is completely clear-cut, I see two possible factors determining the way that people tend to refer to a married woman:

- personal and political identification: Most of the time, highborn women are still seen as offspring of their house, while they may or may not be seen as a part of their husband's. Catelyn has both identities; she lives in the North and is seen as one of the Starks, one of the "wolves" killed at the RW, but when she finds herself in the Riverlands, her Tully identity takes over - and Tywin attacks the Riverlands and the Tullys in retaliation for the offense of Catelyn kidnapping his son. Lysa doesn't have strong ties with her father, and after living in KL she goes to the Vale where she rules in the name of her son. But everyone knows that the Lannisters are the true power in KL, even though Robert is the king. And it would be completely ludicrous to suggest that Margaery has been a part of the Baratheon family since marrying Renly or that the Lannisters wanted to marry her into their family because she was Renly's widow (a marriage that the Lannisters wouldn't look to kindly upon in the first place). The Tyrells were the monetary and military power behind Renly; for all intents and purposes, he's the one who married into the Tyrells, not the other way round. He left KL and went to Highgarden, he brought his claim to the IT and charisma, and the Tyrells brought the money and a big part of the army. And everyone knows that the Tyrells are at least as powerful as the Lannisters in the new alliance.

- prestige: People refer to Lysa as "Lysa Arryn" but I don't believe anyone ever referred to her as "Lysa Baelish", do you? Genna is never "Genna Frey", because the Lannisters >>>> Freys.

Now, things get a little complicated when it comes to the great houses, so I can speculate a little. I'm sure that the Targaryens >>> everyone in the minds of the Targaryens at least, but the Starks, the Martells and the Lannisters, at the very least, probably also believe the same about themselves. Greyjoys probably do, too. The Baratheons > the Florents, but, while the Baratheons may have a claim to the IT, they're really upstarts compared to the thousand-year old Nothern First Men dynasty, the Starks, or the old Andal kings like the Arryns or the Lannisters (and in the case of the Lannisters... they're super-rich). The Targaryens are a special case, because of their dragons and their pride and the mystical aura that surrounded them and still does to a point. The Martells, however, are the one house in Westeros who never had reasons to feel inferior to the Targs; they were never conquered. I'm not sure where that leaves the Tullys; they are one of the great houses, but let's not forget that they were never kings. The Tyrells were just stewards before the conquest, though they have royal lineage through the female line - but they're also very rich, so, like the Lannisters, that trumps a lot of other concerns.

In any case, there doesn't really seem to be a rule, it's on the case to case basis.

[fire_ice]

I just read lolita for the first time and decided to search this to see if anyone has talked about any sansa/littlefinger parallels to it. It's been mentioned here but only really talking about the actors so I wondered if anyone has noticed parallels, or if this has been looked into anywhere else in detail? :) Just got excited, I love parallels. (even relatively sinister ones)

[Annara Snow]

I just read lolita for the first time and decided to search this to see if anyone has talked about any sansa/littlefinger parallels to it. It's been mentioned here but only really talking about the actors so I wondered if anyone has noticed parallels, or if this has been looked into anywhere else in detail? :) Just got excited, I love parallels. (even relatively sinister ones)

Apart from Littlefinger acting like a textbook sexual predator who's trying to groom a victim, no, I can't think of any particular parallels. The characters are completely different, so are the dynamics.

[juanml82]

So Alayne is his niece. D&D are pussies :P

[Harry Lime]

So Alayne is his niece. D&D are pussies :P

I'm not on the whole "let's burn D&D at the stake!" bandwagon, but I still would like to know their reasoning behind this. Littlefinger can spend half of seasons 1 and 2 in a brothel, but he can't have a (fake) bastard daughter?

[Harry Lime]

Anyway. I've been thinking of how to make Sansa's season 5 storyline more interesting. It's a little bit of a stretch, but what about her replacing Wylla Manderly? They could have Littlefinger send her on a secret assignment to White Harbor having something to do with beginning to secure the North. She could be in court when Davos is there and deliver Wylla's speech. It would be sort of an old Sansa moment, because she's saying something she shouldn't and risking getting caught, but it would also be a triumphant moment of her standing up for Ned and Robb.

It does defy logic slightly, but hopefully they can show her becoming more dependable in Littlefinger's eyes between now and then. At any rate, it's better than her sitting around in the Eyrie for all of season 5.

[Annara Snow]

Anyway. I've been thinking of how to make Sansa's season 5 storyline more interesting. It's a little bit of a stretch, but what about her replacing Wylla Manderly? They could have Littlefinger send her on a secret assignment to White Harbor having something to do with beginning to secure the North. She could be in court when Davos is there and deliver Wylla's speech. It would be sort of an old Sansa moment, because she's saying something she shouldn't and risking getting caught, but it would also be a triumphant moment of her standing up for Ned and Robb.

It does defy logic slightly, but hopefully they can show her becoming more dependable in Littlefinger's eyes between now and then. At any rate, it's better than her sitting around in the Eyrie for all of season 5.

:lol:

I'm not on the whole "let's burn D&D at the stake!" bandwagon, but I still would like to know their reasoning behind this. Littlefinger can spend half of seasons 1 and 2 in a brothel, but he can't have a (fake) bastard daughter?

I think it's because they think that some of the viewers are too stupid/inattentive and could think that Cat actually cheated on Ned and that Sansa is actually LF's daughter. They thought viewers may confuse Sweetrobin with king Robert if they had the same name, after all.

[Harry Lime]

:lol:

Would you rather she babysit Robin for however many episodes? I've seen book-readers promise the unsullied this huge change in her character coming, but going by the books there really isn't any.

[juanml82]

Anyway. I've been thinking of how to make Sansa's season 5 storyline more interesting. It's a little bit of a stretch, but what about her replacing Wylla Manderly? They could have Littlefinger send her on a secret assignment to White Harbor having something to do with beginning to secure the North. She could be in court when Davos is there and deliver Wylla's speech. It would be sort of an old Sansa moment, because she's saying something she shouldn't and risking getting caught, but it would also be a triumphant moment of her standing up for Ned and Robb.

It does defy logic slightly, but hopefully they can show her becoming more dependable in Littlefinger's eyes between now and then. At any rate, it's better than her sitting around in the Eyrie for all of season 5.

once they burn her AFFC material, they'll continue with her TWOW arc

[yolkboy]

There was a theory by Lady Gywnhyfvar and Milady of York in the pawn to player thread that Sansa's hooded cape is actually the Hound's kingsguard cloak (which might mean heck of a lot to her) and she's used her needlework skills to alter it.

I've looked at this in the HBO series and given a screenshot account of the show equivalent of this theory.

Sansa's Cape = the Hound's Cloak ?

[Woman of War]

Did Sandor even leave his cloak behind in the series? Did he have a cloak at all when he sat there waiting for Sansa?

[Annara Snow]

Did Sandor even leave his cloak behind in the series? Did he have a cloak at all when he sat there waiting for Sansa?

I think they mean the cloak he gave her to cover herself in an earlier episode (on the show).

I don't think the hood the same material, the texture looks different rather than just the color. Though it's theoretically possible that she kept the cloak somewhere, I guess.

[Woman of War]

I think they mean the cloak he gave her to cover herself in an earlier episode (on the show).

I don't think the hood the same material, the texture looks different rather than just the color. Though it's theoretically possible that she kept the cloak somewhere, I guess.

Oh thank you, though I do not remember Sandor's cloak from the "Sansa getting beaten" scene.

But if they had wanted the cloak to have any significance Sandor could easily have dropped any cloak before leaving Sansa's room in Blackwater.

[Colonel Green]

There was a theory by Lady Gywnhyfvar and Milady of York in the pawn to player thread that Sansa's hooded cape is actually the Hound's kingsguard cloak (which might mean heck of a lot to her) and she's used her needlework skills to alter it.

Which has always been a very silly theory.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I just want an opinion on if anyone thinks they will be able to pull off the snow castle scene because I don't think they will.

And if they do I will be really impressed

[OnlyOne]

Show-Sansa is a stereotypical dumb blonde cliche. The producers are unable to think beyond standard TV tropes. This has happened to all their characters.

[OnlyOne]

Agreed.

[Mladen]

There was a theory by Lady Gywnhyfvar and Milady of York in the pawn to player thread that Sansa's hooded cape is actually the Hound's kingsguard cloak (which might mean heck of a lot to her) and she's used her needlework skills to alter it.

I've looked at this in the HBO series and given a screenshot account of the show equivalent of this theory.

Sansa's Cape = the Hound's Cloak ?

I am sorry, but nope. The theory on the show would make no sense, given that they escape from the wedding and that DOntos gave her the cloak. Also, those two cloaks are significantly different.

Oh thank you, though I do not remember Sandor's cloak from the "Sansa getting beaten" scene.

But if they had wanted the cloak to have any significance Sandor could easily have dropped any cloak before leaving Sansa's room in Blackwater.

Yeah, the texture, as Annara said, is different. Even the material, I would say, but I am complete ignorant in that field... :)

I just want an opinion on if anyone thinks they will be able to pull off the snow castle scene because I don't think they will.

And if they do I will be really impressed

I think we will see the Snow castle scene. It is one of the most beautiful moments in Sansa's story, plus it is an intro for the Lysa's reaction. Nevertheless, I think we might see it given that there was a shot in one of the trailers with Sansa in Vale garden while it is snowing.

[Colonel Green]

I think they'll do the snow castle, though there are limits to what they can do with it compared to the books, I think -- some of those inherent in the medium, others are self-imposed via the show's set visual style.