Jon IS Ned's son

[WildBlood]

Mormonts are possibly wargs as well

[J. Stargaryen]

I think it's worth giving some thought to what the phrase "Do I have to spell it out for you?" is implying before criticizing R+L=J evidence for not having been, you know, spelled out.

[WhiteWalder]

I did not start this thread so it is not my theory. I contributed by stating that R+L=J is a theory because it is not confirmed in the books which lead you to stating I fail to understand the writing process, have a limited view and read less complex literature. And now you tell when and when not to be offended.

Here is a good analogy. A 3 year old is dancing back and forth from foot to foot holding their private area. The child goes into the restroom and exits 2 minutes later. The toilet is running.

I would assume that the 3 year old just urinated - you would not get absolute confirmation unless the child lets you know or there was a witness. Yet, all the evidence is there.

It is the same thing with R+L=J. It is common acceptance because of all the evidence with nothing to disprove.

[alienarea]

Here is a good analogy. A 3 year old is dancing back and forth from foot to foot holding their private area. The child goes into the restroom and exits 2 minutes later. The toilet is running.

I would assume that the 3 year old just urinated - you would not get absolute confirmation unless the child lets you know or there was a witness. Yet, all the evidence is there.

It is the same thing with R+L=J. It is common acceptance because of all the evidence with nothing to disprove.

I can follow your analogy quite well.

Following your analogy, one could argue that we know that Ashara was dishonored, we know Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, and we know Ned returned with a boy to Winterfell, claiming the boy is his bastard. Does that make Ashara Jon's mother as well?

Also:

- if I am not mistaken two rode away from the Tower of Joy. Not two and a baby.

- it is written that Howland Reed and Ned Stark tore down the Tower of Joy and build 7 cairns. Using you analogy above that took some time. A baby would have starved by the time they were finished.

[A Man Has Said]

I don't think they were the first: the direwolf on the banner of Stark and those statues in the crypt are more eloquent. I presume that the absence of direwolves south of the Wall could be possible explanation of Starks non-skinchangers during those thousand of years (how long exactly I do not know). It seems the direwolves triggered their abilities, why exactly those creatures are so connected to the Starks that remains a mystery, but it definitely hard to separate them from their direwolves, hard for outsider to skinchange them.

The First Men's blood flows though their veins, as well as in Bloodraven's (he is Blackwood on his mother's side), Varamyr's and other wildlings. And Starks have it much longer then one or two generations.

That doesn't really mean anything, unless you're saying that the Baratheons skinchanged into stags, the Lannisters into lions and the Greyjoys into krakens. Most of the Great Houses and many of the lesser have animals as sigils. It doesn't mean they skinchanged into them. It doesn't mean anything.

[alienarea]

That doesn't really mean anything, unless you're saying that the Baratheons skinchanged into stags, the Lannisters into lions and the Greyjoys into krakens. Most of the Great Houses and many of the lesser have animals as sigils. It doesn't mean they skinchanged into them. It doesn't mean anything.

And Tullys skinchanged into trouts. Brilliant :dunno:

[WhiteWalder]

I can follow your analogy quite well.

Following your analogy, one could argue that we know that Ashara was dishonored, we know Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, and we know Ned returned with a boy to Winterfell, claiming the boy is his bastard. Does that make Ashara Jon's mother as well?

Also:

- if I am not mistaken two rode away from the Tower of Joy. Not two and a baby.

- it is written that Howland Reed and Ned Stark tore down the Tower of Joy and build 7 cairns. Using you analogy above that took some time. A baby would have starved by the time they were finished.

I see where you are trying to go and point taken, maybe not a perfect analogy - but Ashara'a baby is a year old when Jon is born - we find from other evidence.

The other stuff is semantics. If two men ride away, and one is holding a baby, then is the baby considered riding? Babies cannot ride a horse. He also took Lyanna's remains, so dead Lyanna did not ride away as well.

The baby did not starve because Ned took him to Starfall, where he was nursed by Wylla. There was time enough to tear down the ToJ and pick up Jon before heading back North.

[Mladen]

That doesn't really mean anything, unless you're saying that the Baratheons skinchanged into stags, the Lannisters into lions and the Greyjoys into krakens. Most of the Great Houses and many of the lesser have animals as sigils. It doesn't mean they skinchanged into them. It doesn't mean anything.

Baratheons aren`t First Men, and Lannisters have a great deal of Andal blood in them. As for Greyjoys, warging a mythological being is a bit tough. The truth is somewhere between what you said and what he did. Starks did warg direwolves, but not all of them. Direwolves haven`t been seen south of Wall for 200 years, and that`s not some great period comparing to history long 8000 years. Sigils are GRRM`s doings, there is a plot reason why Starks are wolves and Lannisters are lions... That has nothing to do with warging.

[Ygrain]

Following your analogy, one could argue that we know that Ashara was dishonored, we know Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, and we know Ned returned with a boy to Winterfell, claiming the boy is his bastard. Does that make Ashara Jon's mother as well?

Nope because there is no direct reference to Ned as being the one who dishonoured her, and even "turned to Stark" doesn't necessarily mean that she was dishonoured by a Stark. Plus, you are picking a couple of points while neglecting to adress the rest. So, on the whole, not a good counter-analogy, sorry.

Also:

- if I am not mistaken two rode away from the Tower of Joy. Not two and a baby.

Two out of seven and three that were mentioned to take part in the fight. No more persons were mentioned at that stage, therefore no other enter the equation.

- it is written that Howland Reed and Ned Stark tore down the Tower of Joy and build 7 cairns. Using you analogy above that took some time. A baby would have starved by the time they were finished.

The amount of time spent at ToJ is unimportant because the child would have starved to death before they would have reached any civilisation, anyway, unless there was a wetnurse or at least a nanny goat present already. Since they found Ned holding Lyanna's dead body, at least one other person was present and still alive at ToJ (not counting a newborn as the baby would hardly be included in the pronoun reference here), so the possibility of a wetnurse is definitely there.

That doesn't really mean anything, unless you're saying that the Baratheons skinchanged into stags, the Lannisters into lions and the Greyjoys into krakens. Most of the Great Houses and many of the lesser have animals as sigils. It doesn't mean they skinchanged into them. It doesn't mean anything.

A little correction: we do not possess sufficient data to arrive at a conclusion. The ease of wolf/direwolf warging might indicate that at least with the Starks, the choice of the sigil animal could be more significant than it seems.

I see where you are trying to go and point taken, maybe not a perfect analogy - but Ashara'a baby is a year old when Jon is born - we find from other evidence.

The other stuff is semantics. If two men ride away, and one is holding a baby, then is the baby considered riding? Babies cannot ride a horse. He also took Lyanna's remains, so dead Lyanna did not ride away as well.

The baby did not starve because Ned took him to Starfall, where he was nursed by Wylla. There was time enough to tear down the ToJ and pick up Jon before heading back North.

The journey would have taken days, and without means to sustain him, the child wouldn't have survived.

[mormont]

[mod] Please do not personalise debate. If you think someone is being rude, step back, think about it, and give them the benefit of the doubt: if you still think they're being rude, report it. Don't start making it personal. [/mod]

[A Man Has Said]

Nobody has bothered to address my long post (on the third page of comments) describing what Ned must have experience/felt when Lyanna confessed to him that Rhaegar hadn't kidnapped and raped her as everyone had been assuming through a year of bloody war.

("the scenario from Ned's point of view at ToJ if R+L=J is true.")

That's an awful lot of killing to have taken place because a young girl couldn't take responsibility for her actions.

Of course there is another, more nuanced way that this could have played out.

-Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly at first.

- Only afterwards, Rhaegar held her incommunicado so that she wouldn't confess.

But the problem with that is that if she does confess it clears Rhaegar of the charges of kidnap and rape. So you'd have to come up with a believable motive for him to do that.

Can nobody see why I have a problem with this?

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Nobody has bothered to address my long post (on the third page of comments) describing what Ned must have experience/felt when Lyanna confessed to him that Rhaegar hadn't kidnapped and raped her as everyone had been assuming through a year of bloody war.

("the scenario from Ned's point of view at ToJ if R+L=J is true.")

That's an awful lot of killing to have taken place because a young girl couldn't take responsibility for her actions.

Of course there is another, more nuanced way that this could have played out.

-Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly at first.

- Only afterwards, Rhaegar held her incommunicado so that she wouldn't confess.

But the problem with that is that if she does confess it clears Rhaegar of the charges of kidnap and rape. So you'd have to come up with a believable motive for him to do that.

Can nobody see why I have a problem with this?

I'll address it.

From where in the text did you get this scenario? It doesn't need to be spelled out; it could be hinted or foreshadowed. But I would like to see what evidence from the books support it.

[Ygrain]

Nobody has bothered to address my long post (on the third page of comments) describing what Ned must have experience/felt when Lyanna confessed to him that Rhaegar hadn't kidnapped and raped her as everyone had been assuming through a year of bloody war.

("the scenario from Ned's point of view at ToJ if R+L=J is true.")

That's an awful lot of killing to have taken place because a young girl couldn't take responsibility for her actions.

Of course there is another, more nuanced way that this could have played out.

-Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly at first.

- Only afterwards, Rhaegar held her incommunicado so that she wouldn't confess.

But the problem with that is that if she does confess it clears Rhaegar of the charges of kidnap and rape. So you'd have to come up with a believable motive for him to do that.

Can nobody see why I have a problem with this?

Actually, I have, and pointed out where I thought you might be wrong. The same here wth the bolded part of your post: even though abduction and rape might be the official version fourteen years later, it cannot be automatically assumed that this is what everyone thought back then as there is very little information to work with. Based on what we do know, there is even a possibility that Lyanna and/or Rhaegar did inform Rickard and that Brandon acted on hurt pride and/or misinformation - there is no mention of the Starks calling banners in response to the supposed abduction, and Brandon seems to be more intent on killing Rhaegar rather than getting Lyanna back. Also, with Benjen being Lyanna's accomplice in crime in the sparring trainings, he might have been privy to some of her thoughts and plans.

Also, from another angle: Ned travelled to ToJ directly from Storm's End as if he knew where to look, only with a few of his most trusted companions as if he wanted to make sure that the information about Lyanna's condition and whereabouts wouldn't become public knowledge, and she seemed to virtually cling onto life until she could extract that promise from him, as if she knew that he was coming.

All in all, not necessarily meaning that Ned must have possessed some extra knowledged (except the knowledge of the ToJ location where he was clearly directed by someone) but the possibility cannot be ruled out.

[mcb]

If that were true there would be far more skinchangers. Most everybody north of the Neck (and many in the Iron Islands) are descended from the First Men. On both sides of the wall.

Mayhaps, but only because it's a work of fiction. The fact remains that only the children of Ned Stark are known to have this rare gift. It seems to be a very specific genetic mutation. I'll have to accept the argument, but only because I'm not a geneticist. :P In reality, I don't think it would work that way.

I guess the pertinent question to ask would be; do we know of any skinchangers in the Stark line prior to this batch?

That arguments doesn't fly. Skinchanging is a very rare ability, an ability it's owner can be not even aware of, and kept secret if discovered. The only reason we know that Bran, Arya and Jon possess this gift is because we're privy to their innermost thoughts and even dreams. Them being skinchangers is certainly no public knowledge (hell, even their closest friends and kin have no idea), and most probably won't be recorded in any history books. Pretty much the only way we could know of a skinchanger south of the Wall is if he was a POV character. And the fact that Jon has a high count of POV chapters does not make him Ned's biological son.

So, to answer your questions: no we don't know of any historic wargs, Starks or not. How could we?

[A Man Has Said]

I'll address it.

From where in the text did you get this scenario? It doesn't need to be spelled out; it could be hinted or foreshadowed. But I would like to see what evidence from the books support it.

"the scenario from Ned's point of view at ToJ IF R+L=J is true."

Read the whole thread. I posted that comment to emphasize that R+L is a theory based on speculation, NOT text. That's kind of the point, don't you think. And there has been a lot of discussion from both sides on the fact that R+L is a theory that's based on 'reading between the lines' as Ygrain so helpfully put it.

[Julian Rayne]

Nobody has bothered to address my long post (on the third page of comments) describing what Ned must have experience/felt when Lyanna confessed to him that Rhaegar hadn't kidnapped and raped her as everyone had been assuming through a year of bloody war.

("the scenario from Ned's point of view at ToJ if R+L=J is true.")

That's an awful lot of killing to have taken place because a young girl couldn't take responsibility for her actions.

Of course there is another, more nuanced way that this could have played out.

-Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly at first.

- Only afterwards, Rhaegar held her incommunicado so that she wouldn't confess.

But the problem with that is that if she does confess it clears Rhaegar of the charges of kidnap and rape. So you'd have to come up with a believable motive for him to do that.

Can nobody see why I have a problem with this?

I'll have a go then.

OK, here's the scenario from Ned's point of view at ToJ if R+L=J is true.

-He has just fought a war on behalf of Robert and his sister's honour, all on the assumption that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar.

No, he just fought a war to stop a Mad King from taking his head.

-His hot-headed brother Brandon has called out the prince based on that assumption, and ended up dead for it, along with their father.

Yes, it was a tragedy that Brandon was a fool and Aerys was mad.

-Along with his father and brother, Ned has lost most of his best friends (Willam Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, and Ser Mark Ryswell - all but Howland Reed of the ones who accompanied him to ToJ) and the Starks, Tullys, Arryns, and Baratheons have all lost thousands of soldiers and dozens of bannermen in Robert's Rebellion.

More negative consequences of having a Mad King.

-Ned, an honourable man, has just killed three men he knows (or at least believes) to be among the most honourable in the Kingdom - Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent, and Lord Commander Gerold Hightower.

In battle sometimes honorable men kill other honorable men. It happens.

- That fight had to have been the battle of his life, after a succession of battles in the war that he had thought would be the battle of his life. There must have been several times in the year leading up to this when he thought he was on the verge of death due to his participation in the rebellion.

Yes, war is hell. It is known.

Then he goes upstairs and hears his sister tell him that it was all based on a false premise - that she had run away with the married prince, and has just given birth to his child. The whole issue of 'his sister's honour' that drove his brother, his father and thousands of people to their deaths, that disrupted the entire kingdom, is false.

It wasn't based on a false premise. The fact that Aerys murdered a Lord Pamount and his heir, and demanded the heads of two other Lords Paramount was not false.

Ned's covered in blood, probably feeling weak at the knees and trembling as he comes down from the adrenaline high of the fight.

He's been in battle before. He's tough, he can handle it.

Then he gets this shocking admission from his dying sister, who then extracts an unknown promise from him.

What evidence do you have that it was unknown?

A promise that obviously causes him to hide the truth for the rest of his life, at great cost to his honour, something that brings enormous pressure to his marriage. Don't you think above all else that he would feel betrayed by Lyanna? That she has not only betrayed him, but the entire Stark family, her betrothed Robert, (the promise could just have been to keep it secret from him) the realm?

She didn't betray any of those people.

And Ned's response to this revelation, according to the R+L theory, is; "OK, sis - anything you say. I'm cool with that."

He chose to grant his beloved sister's dying wish - a very reasonable and natural dying wish to protect her son - instead of berating her on her deathbed. What's so strange about that? He doesn't actually have a frozen heart no matter what Viserys thought.

Do we all agree that that's what you're saying when you tell me that R+L is established fact?

Can't speak for anyone else, but what I'm saying is not what you're saying I'm saying.

This moment in narrative time is the cornerstone on which the whole R+L=J THEORY!! is based.

Whenever people stress on "THEORY!!" my mind always goes to creationists. Not that you're one but that's where my mind goes. Something can be both a Theory!! and a fact.

[Ghost's Shadow]

“Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it... as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is.”

“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

What price is this if you believe that the promise was to bring her body back where it already belonged anyway? The promise presses heavy on him, and returning a body wouldn't.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

"the scenario from Ned's point of view at ToJ IF R+L=J is true."

Read the whole thread. I posted that comment to emphasize that R+L is a theory based on speculation, NOT text. That's kind of the point, don't you think. And there has been a lot of discussion from both sides on the fact that R+L is a theory that's based on 'reading between the lines' as Ygrain so helpfully put it.

I have read the whole thread. You have no cause to assume that I haven't.

My point was that your entire scenario that you laid out in that long post to which you referred is complete speculation. I could quite reasonably describe it as fabrication. There is no textual support at all for whatever Ned's mental state was when he arrived at the ToJ, what the sequence of events was, how intense the battle was, how Ned felt once the battle was completed, what Ned thought when he saw Lyanna, if Ned thought that she betrayed him or anything else that you posited about how all this "could have played out". It's insupportable because there is no evidence for any of it.

The R+L=J theory is based on text. It's based on text that is primarily hints and foreshadowing (i.e. it isn't spelled out in so many words), but the hints are there in the text. The theory is not based on air (not even moving air, like wind :laugh: ).

[twizz]

Nope because there is no direct reference to Ned as being the one who dishonoured her, and even "turned to Stark" doesn't necessarily mean that she was dishonoured by a Stark. Plus, you are picking a couple of points while neglecting to adress the rest. So, on the whole, not a good counter-analogy, sorry.

There is also no direct reference to R+L=J, Hence why it is a theory. You cant have it both ways friend.

Also there is something very illogical in trying to disprove a theory with another theory :bang:

[A Man Has Said]

Actually, I have, and pointed out where I thought you might be wrong. The same here wth the bolded part of your post: even though abduction and rape might be the official version fourteen years later, it cannot be automatically assumed that this is what everyone thought back then as there is very little information to work with. Based on what we do know, there is even a possibility that Lyanna and/or Rhaegar did inform Rickard and that Brandon acted on hurt pride and/or misinformation - there is no mention of the Starks calling banners in response to the supposed abduction, and Brandon seems to be more intent on killing Rhaegar rather than getting Lyanna back. Also, with Benjen being Lyanna's accomplice in crime in the sparring trainings, he might have been privy to some of her thoughts and plans.

Also, from another angle: Ned travelled to ToJ directly from Storm's End as if he knew where to look, only with a few of his most trusted companions as if he wanted to make sure that the information about Lyanna's condition and whereabouts wouldn't become public knowledge, and she seemed to virtually cling onto life until she could extract that promise from him, as if she knew that he was coming.

All in all, not necessarily meaning that Ned must have possessed some extra knowledged (except the knowledge of the ToJ location where he was clearly directed by someone) but the possibility cannot be ruled out.

-As I recall, your pointing out where I might be wrong amounted to some hair-splitting about "Lyanna's abduction didn't start the war." By the way, when did that become such an important issue? It's nonsensical of course, but it's been mentioned by someone else on this thread and I've seen it a couple of times elsewhere. Obviously it became a talking point in one of the innumerable (52 and counting) R+L threads. Anyway, it's a very weak point.

I can't imagine what the textual basis is for any of your other statements,

"..the official version fourteen years later.." could only have become official because it was the ONLY version fourteen years earlier.

"..a possibility that Lyanna and/or Rhaegar did inform Rickard and that Brandon acted on hurt pride and/or misinformation.." as you say, a possibility based on pure speculation. Your language reveals the fact that it's all guesswork, "..seems to be more intent.. ..he might have been privy to.. ..as if he knew where to look.. ..as if he wanted to make sure.. ..she seemed to virtually cling.. ..as if she knew that he was coming."

An old saying from the Nixon/Watergate era goes, "as speculation hardens into rumour.." Then the rumour calcifies into gospel, a cult is formed and it grows into a religion. But maybe he's not the Messiah. Maybe he's just a very bad boy. ;)