Renly's plan to make Margaery Bob's Queen

[The Sleeper]

Apparently, through AGOT Renly planned to bring Margaery to court wiht the ultimet agenda fo having her replace Cersei and Robert's queen. How was this supposed to work out? We haven't heard about anything approximating divorce in Westeros and Robert's and Cersei's marriage certainly could not be annuled.

Any thoughts?

[Lost Melnibonean]

I suppose Robert would have been pissed if Renly told him about the twincest. Did Renly or the Tyrells have reason to suspect it? Didn't Fireball l pack his wife off to the Silent Sisters so he could get named to the KG?

[Groat]

I think Renly knew about the incest, and was using the marriage as a means to protect his family and secure Robert's rule. It also creates stronger ties with the Tyrells, which would mean Renly gets to see Loras more often, which is a big bonus for him too. The Lannisters were clearly overly ambitious and morally gray to say the least, so even if Renly didn't know about the incest, a flimsy plan to attempt to remove them from power was something he thought was good to work for.

[The Sleeper]

I suppose Robert would have been pissed if Renly told him about the twincest. Did Renly or the Tyrells have reason to suspect it? Didn't Fireball l pack his wife off to the Silent Sisters so he could get named to the KG?

Renly seemed to learn about the incest long after he left King's Landing. He didn't particularly care. Packing Cersei off would be ...problematic to say the least?

[RumHam]

I don't think Renly had any idea about the twincest. As for getting rid of Cersei, the King can do whatever he wants. He may piss off the faith, but the High Septon at that point didn't come off as a very strong-willed person. The other problem would be pissing off Tywin whom the crown owed a lot of money too. But hey if you can get him to rebel and then kill him, I guess the debt would be cleared.

[The Sleeper]

I think Renly knew about the incest, and was using the marriage as a means to protect his family and secure Robert's rule. It also creates stronger ties with the Tyrells, which would mean Renly gets to see Loras more often, which is a big bonus for him too. The Lannisters were clearly overly ambitious and morally gray to say the least, so even if Renly didn't know about the incest, a flimsy plan to attempt to remove them from power was something he thought was good to work for.

I'm not talking about the merits of the plan. I am asking how it was supposed to have worked out.

[SeanF]

Maybe Renly's intention was for Cersei to meet an "accident."

[otherbeef]

seems to me the Tyrells would be content having a Queen and voices on the small council, whereas Cersei always wanted to rule in her own right. Add the loyalty of the biggest army in Westeros to King Bob and things would've worked out splendidly.

Joffrey could've ruined that should he still be the heir though.

[Groat]

I'm not talking about the merits of the plan. I am asking how it was supposed to have worked out.

Well if it was brought to Robert's attention that Cersei had an affair and the 3 kids were bastards, all the kids and Cersei, and Jaime, would be dead, at which point Robert needs a new political alliance to help defeat the inevitable war with Tywin, in comes Margery.

If he didn't know about the incest, then either an assassination, or simply Robert's hatred of Cersei, would have had to of suffice. Divorce wasn't allowed in England until Henry VIII, so a king can pretty much do what he wants.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Maybe Renly's intention was for Cersei to meet an "accident."

So that's why the FM was in The dungeon! Just kidding. I'm sorry I just couldn't help myself. I'll be good.

[SeanF]

Well if it was brought to Robert's attention that Cersei had an affair and the 3 kids were bastards, all the kids and Cersei, and Jaime, would be dead, at which point Robert needs a new political alliance to help defeat the inevitable war with Tywin, in comes Margery.

If he didn't know about the incest, then either an assassination, or simply Robert's hatred of Cersei, would have had to of suffice. Divorce wasn't allowed in England until Henry VIII, so a king can pretty much do what he wants.

Simply executing Cersei, or sending her to the Silent Sisters, would be problematic, given that Robert is surrounded by Lannisters, and Tywin is bankrolling his government.

[Groat]

Simply executing Cersei, or sending her to the Silent Sisters, would be problematic, given that Robert is surrounded by Lannisters, and Tywin is bankrolling his government.

Problematic, but still do-able, from Renly's POV at least. He may have been banking the the whole plan on Margery resembling Lyanna, and hoped Robert would throw logic out the window because some young girl looks like Lyanna.

As I said, personally, I think it makes more sense if Renly knew about the incest, but there is no evidence either way.

[mormont]

Power talks, in the end, and Renly believes in that even more than most in ASOIAF.

Renly's 'plan' appears to have been at a very nascent stage, and we have no indication of the details of what he intended, but it seems likely that Renly believed that if Robert really wanted to, he could set aside Cersei and disinherit Joff and the others. He is the King, after all, and the King is the law. The Faith might have objected, but under the original High Septon they could probably have been bought off, given some plausible excuse. I'm certain that Renly didn't know about the incest - he says he didn't when talking to Stannis, and he has no possible reason to be lying in that conversation - but I'm equally sure he wouldn't have balked at making up some story about Cersei having an affair if it served to get her out of the way.

ETA - as for the crown's debt to the Lannisters, I'm inclined to think that was part of the plan. Robert sets aside Cersei on some (probably false) pretext and marries Margaery: Tywin goes to war. The Baratheon brothers and the Tyrells (possibly also the Tullys and Starks) crush the Lannisters, their power at court ends, the debts are gone, and everyone lives happily ever after, so long as their name isn't 'Lannister'.

[Martin of House Tyrell]

Didn't Cersei say once that it wouldn't have been long anyway before Bob put her aside for a younger, prettier thing? I guess a king can do that.

[Nyrhex]

Renly has no idea about the Twincest at the time.

“If you have proposals to make, make them,” Stannis said brusquely, “or I will be gone.”

“Very well,” said Renly. “I propose that you dismount, bend your knee, and swear me your allegiance.”

Stannis choked back rage. “That you shall never have.”

“You served Robert, why not me?”

“Robert was my elder brother. You are the younger.”

“Younger, bolder, and far more comely . . .”

“. . . and a thief and a usurper besides.”

Renly shrugged. “The Targaryens called Robert usurper. He seemed to be able to bear the shame. So shall I.”

Renly laughed. “You must forgive Lady Catelyn, Stannis. She’s come all the way down from Riverrun, a long way ahorse. I fear she never

saw your little letter.”

“Joffrey is not my brother’s seed,” Stannis said bluntly. “Nor is Tommen. They are bastards. The girl as well. All three of them

abominations born of incest.”

Would even Cersei be so mad? Catelyn was speechless.

“Isn’t that a sweet story, my lady?” Renly asked. “I was camped at Horn Hill when Lord Tarly received his letter, and I must say, it took my

breath away.” He smiled at his brother. “I had never suspected you were so clever, Stannis. Were it only true, you would indeed be Robert’s

heir.”

“Were it true? Do you name me a liar?”

“Can you prove any word of this fable?”

Stannis ground his teeth.

Robert could never have known, Catelyn thought, or Cersei would have lost her head in an instant. “Lord Stannis,” she asked, “if you knew

the queen to be guilty of such monstrous crimes, why did you keep silent?”

“I did not keep silent,” Stannis declared. “I brought my suspicions to Jon Arryn.”

“Rather than your own brother?”

“My brother’s regard for me was never more than dutiful,” said Stannis. “From me, such accusations would have seemed peevish and selfserving,

a means of placing myself first in the line of succession. I believed Robert would be more disposed to listen if the charges came from

Lord Arryn, whom he loved.”

“Ah,” said Renly. “So we have the word of a dead man.”

“Do you think he died by happenstance, you purblind fool? Cersei had him poisoned, for fear he would reveal her. Lord Jon had been

gathering certain proofs—”

“—which doubtless died with him. How inconvenient.”

Catelyn was remembering, fitting pieces together. “My sister Lysa accused the queen of killing her husband in a letter she sent me at

Winterfell,” she admitted. “Later, in the Eyrie, she laid the murder at the feet of the queen’s brother Tyrion.”

Stannis snorted. “If you step in a nest of snakes, does it matter which one bites you first?”

“All this of snakes and incest is droll, but it changes nothing. You may well have the better claim, Stannis, but I still have the larger army.”

Renly still believes that Stannis is lying. Though even if Stannis is Robert's heir, Renly does not care. He is already a traitor and userper, and he has no problem with taking out his nephews out of the picture. Had he managed to get Robert to ditch Cersie, he would have either found a reason to dispose of her and her children, or simply killed them to get rid of the "lawful heirs". He is so confident that Stannis will bend the knee to him, as he has a large backing, that he never bothers to plot against Stannis.

[Groat]

Power talks, in the end, and Renly believes in that even more than most in ASOIAF.

Renly's 'plan' appears to have been at a very nascent stage, and we have no indication of the details of what he intended, but it seems likely that Renly believed that if Robert really wanted to, he could set aside Cersei and disinherit Joff and the others. He is the King, after all, and the King is the law. The Faith might have objected, but under the original High Septon they could probably have been bought off, given some plausible excuse. I'm certain that Renly didn't know about the incest - he says he didn't when talking to Stannis, and he has no possible reason to be lying in that conversation - but I'm equally sure he wouldn't have balked at making up some story about Cersei having an affair if it served to get her out of the way.

He has a very good reason for lying to Stannis, by denying he had knowledge of the incest, as well as cast doubts on it's truth, he strengthens his own claim while weakening Stannis's.

[profilebegone]

I think this points to the fact that one of the biggest tragedies of the whole story is that Stannis and Renly's mutual animosity prevents them from working together at several key points to the betterment of the realm. If Stannis and Renly had worked together pre AGoT they probably could've gotten Cersei, Jaime, and the kids executed/exiled/disinherited/some combination thereof before it ever came to war; and in ACoK if they could've just gotten along together they would've squashed Team Lannister. Moral of the story - bros before woes.

[mormont]

He has a very good reason for lying to Stannis, by denying he had knowledge of the incest, as well as cast doubts on it's truth, he strengthens his own claim while weakening Stannis's.

No, Renly's claim is unaffected by the truth or otherwise of the incest. He's not basing his claim on anything but power and influence.

And he's talking privately to three people who all believe the incest rumours anyway. It serves no purpose to play dumb: if he knows, he might as well admit it. It does no harm to his cause, even if it were true that the incest weakened his claim.

There's basically no clear evidence that Renly knows about the incest prior to that conversation, so to claim he was lying is hard to sustain.

[The Sleeper]

Power talks, in the end, and Renly believes in that even more than most in ASOIAF.

Renly's 'plan' appears to have been at a very nascent stage, and we have no indication of the details of what he intended, but it seems likely that Renly believed that if Robert really wanted to, he could set aside Cersei and disinherit Joff and the others. He is the King, after all, and the King is the law. The Faith might have objected, but under the original High Septon they could probably have been bought off, given some plausible excuse. I'm certain that Renly didn't know about the incest - he says he didn't when talking to Stannis, and he has no possible reason to be lying in that conversation - but I'm equally sure he wouldn't have balked at making up some story about Cersei having an affair if it served to get her out of the way.

ETA - as for the crown's debt to the Lannisters, I'm inclined to think that was part of the plan. Robert sets aside Cersei on some (probably false) pretext and marries Margaery: Tywin goes to war. The Baratheon brothers and the Tyrells (possibly also the Tullys and Starks) crush the Lannisters, their power at court ends, the debts are gone, and everyone lives happily ever after, so long as their name isn't 'Lannister'.

In short, he was planning to start "The War for Robert's Cock"?

[Winterfellian]

I don't think that Renly knew about the twincest. Am inclined to think that Renly and the Tyrells expected Robert to pull a Henry the VIII and exercised his power as King to bend the rules of the Faith to comply to his needs. The Faith at this point has already proven to be corrupt so I figured Renly thought that a good bribe , a good enough excuse (some slander against Cersei) complimented with Robert's authority would have been enough to allow for a divorce of sorts.