GRRM, literary conventions and Jon Snow

[Summah]

So I haven't been around this forum for very long, but I've noticed that a lot of people expect Jon Snow to be AA/PtwP and end up on the Iron Throne or as KitN (I do know not everyone agrees). However GRRM has spent five books deconstructing fantasy norms, so why would he then make Jon a cliché of either the hero who saves the world and ends up king or the martyr who dies while saving the world? And what makes this especially banal is that Jon seems to have a secret royal lineage (assuming R+L=J). GRRM has consistently shown that blue blood does not make someone better, more noble etc. While i do think that Jon Snow probably has an important role to play, given his general storyline and how much he's been developed, I can't imagine it ending up like my examples above without GRRM somehow subverting the fantasy genre conventions that lead to that expectation. I think it would actually be much more interesting if R+L=J and he's still a bastard and no one finds out (or no one but him), and if he survives to the end, stays in the NW, doesn't ride and/or skinchange a dragon and doesn't play the pivotal role in saving Westeros from the WW (if that indeed needs to happen).

[The Crow]

So I haven't been around this forum for very long, but I've noticed that a lot of people expect Jon Snow to be AA/PtwP and end up on the Iron Throne or as KitN (I do know not everyone agrees).

Trust me...A small percent of people actually want this.

[profilebegone]

I agree with you completely - without getting into too much detail about specific predictions for the future of Jon Snow, I certainly don't think he's going to end up like Aragorn or Luke Skywalker, the sole hero of destiny who will save the world and rule with wisdom for a century or anything like that. He probably has a key role to play in staving off the Others, and my bet is that he and at least one dragon are going to get real buddy-buddy, I'm fairly sure he won't marry Dany, sit the Iron Throne, or even be alive at the end of the books.

[Mladen]

Winterfellian had a brilliant post on JOn Snow reread thread where she contrasted archetype hero in ASOIAF and stereotypes. Basically, a lot of cheap fantasy novels, comic books, and Hollywood production made us believe that there is infallible hero that will save the day. I think GRRM will do it other way around. He has a hero, but he huminized him, he made him fallible... Jon as a hero won`t end like some glorious hero/King, but he will fulfill the norm of that type. There is a difference of being hero in Martin's world and heroes we assume they are

[TheTowerOfJoy]

So I haven't been around this forum for very long, but I've noticed that a lot of people expect Jon Snow to be AA/PtwP and end up on the Iron Throne or as KitN (I do know not everyone agrees). However GRRM has spent five books deconstructing fantasy norms, so why would he then make Jon a cliché of either the hero who saves the world and ends up king or the martyr who dies while saving the world? And what makes this especially banal is that Jon seems to have a secret royal lineage (assuming R+L=J). GRRM has consistently shown that blue blood does not make someone better, more noble etc. While i do think that Jon Snow probably has an important role to play, given his general storyline and how much he's been developed, I can't imagine it ending up like my examples above without GRRM somehow subverting the fantasy genre conventions that lead to that expectation. I think it would actually be much more interesting if R+L=J and he's still a bastard and no one finds out (or no one but him), and if he survives to the end, stays in the NW, doesn't ride and/or skinchange a dragon and doesn't play the pivotal role in saving Westeros from the WW (if that indeed needs to happen).

I think that the opinions here are quite a bit different from a normal reader of the series. It seems so obvious to all of us who've obsessed over the books and pulled apart every last detail, and overturned every little nugget of information squirreled away in the books.

There's nothing obvious about Jon Snow or his lineage in a normal read of the books, just small hints that wouldn't even be picked up by a normal read.

So I'm going to disagree with your premise, and say that there would be nothing whatsoever cliche about Jon Snow eventually either taking the throne, or sacrificing himself as a martyr.

[MRHD]

I think that the opinions here are quite a bit different from a normal reader of the series. It seems so obvious to all of us who've obsessed over the books and pulled apart every last detail, and overturned every little nugget of information squirreled away in the books.

There's nothing obvious about Jon Snow or his lineage in a normal read of the books, just small hints that wouldn't even be picked up by a normal read.

So I'm going to disagree with your premise, and say that there would be nothing whatsoever cliche about Jon Snow eventually either taking the throne, or sacrificing himself as a martyr.

The hidden lineage is part of the cliche, should he become king. Boy with hidden lineage saves the world and becomes ruler is not exactly an original plotline. That GRRM hides that lineage from the reader better than others might do doesn't make the idea any less of a trope, should it turn out that way for Jon. Once that lineage is revealed, then the natural assumption of the reader will be that he is Savior Of All And Destined Ruler.

[Mladen]

The hidden lineage is part of the cliche, should he become king. Boy with hidden lineage saves the world and becomes ruler is not exactly an original plotline. That GRRM hides that lineage from the reader better than others might do doesn't make the idea any less of a trope, should it turn out that way for Jon.

I would disagree with portion of bolded line. Jon's lineage is part of original plotline, and since you find powerful foreshadowings that he isn't just a bastard in the first scene GRRM wrote for ASOIAF (finding direwolves), it's quite clear that Jon as Targaryen has been part of the plans all along.

[The guy from the Vale]

The hidden lineage is part of the cliche, should he become king. Boy with hidden lineage saves the world and becomes ruler is not exactly an original plotline. That GRRM hides that lineage from the reader better than others might do doesn't make the idea any less of a trope, should it turn out that way for Jon.

I think how GRRM will deconstruct that storyline is that usually, the boy with the hidden lineage saves the world and then becomes king by acclaim. But perhaps it's the other way around, and the only way the hidden heir can save the world is by becoming king in the first place... Because I don't see how a fractured Westeros can stand against the Others.

[Dragon Shieldbreaker]

Soooo how big are the odds that both Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen actually end up as antagonists by the last book? :P

[The guy from the Vale]

Soooo how big are the odds that both Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen actually end up as antagonists by the last book? :P

I'd put them at more than 75% :P

[MRHD]

I would disagree with portion of bolded line. Jon's lineage is part of original plotline, and since you find powerful foreshadowings that he isn't just a bastard in the first scene GRRM wrote for ASOIAF (finding direwolves), it's quite clear that Jon as Targaryen has been part of the plans all along.

I never claimed that his Targaryen heritage wasn't part of GRRM's plan all along. Yes, it is better that GRRM obviously planned it from the beginning and didn't just pull the idea out of his ass halfway through the series, but if it ends with the usual fantasy trope for such a character I don't see how that makes it an original storyline.

[Jabronius Maximus]

With respect to the lineage - the subversion or whatever is that lineages don't matter in this series. look at the Lannisters sitting on the throne, while the true king (Stannis) by lineage is up North fighting for his realm, and no one cares about him. In the Blackfyre rebellion, many lords flocked to Daemon despite the fact he was a bastard. Baelish and Varys become prominent through deceit and intelligence, not because of lineage. Alys Karstark even runs to Jon for help, seeing him as the last son of Ned, not as a bastard.

So in cliche fantasy, lineage might be big in the grand scheme of things, while in ASOIAF it doesn't seem to matter one bit. 'The Reveal' may be big on a personal level for Jon, but the only way he'll really help is with his sword and leadership, not his secret Targ-ness. I don't think that's cliche at all.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I agree with you completely - without getting into too much detail about specific predictions for the future of Jon Snow, I certainly don't think he's going to end up like Aragorn or Luke Skywalker, the sole hero of destiny who will save the world and rule with wisdom for a century or anything like that. He probably has a key role to play in staving off the Others, and my bet is that he and at least one dragon are going to get real buddy-buddy, I'm fairly sure he won't marry Dany, sit the Iron Throne, or even be alive at the end of the books.

I agree with this. Jon will not be Westeros' version of Frodo and I do believe he will die at the end just to avoid the trope, sadly.

Winterfellian had a brilliant post on JOn Snow reread thread where she contrasted archetype hero in ASOIAF and stereotypes.

Was this a thread? Could you possibly provide a link if it's not to much trouble?

[Jon of the Dead]

I think that the opinions here are quite a bit different from a normal reader of the series. It seems so obvious to all of us who've obsessed over the books and pulled apart every last detail, and overturned every little nugget of information squirreled away in the books.

There's nothing obvious about Jon Snow or his lineage in a normal read of the books, just small hints that wouldn't even be picked up by a normal read.

So I'm going to disagree with your premise, and say that there would be nothing whatsoever cliche about Jon Snow eventually either taking the throne, or sacrificing himself as a martyr.

Taking into account the enormous amount of details, nuances, foreshadowing, hidden references, etc, I think it's safe to say that GRRM doesn't write the books only for a normal reading. He knows people are going to pick apart every little thing and fixate on the smallest details.

Btw, I agree with the OP. Jon is a literary convention waiting to be subverted. In some ways, he has been subverted already: he refused to ally with the Wildlings, deconstructing the trope in films like Avatar and the like, he refused Winterfell, and his attempts to modernize an outdated institution in order to save lives resulted in an assassination attempt by his own men. Furthermore, he meant to brake the Night's Watch neutrality to fight Ramsey and avenge Stannis. I'd say these things make him less of a cliche.

[Darryk]

He will subvert the "long-lost prince" and "chosen one" tropes, but who knows how he will do so?

A lot of people seem to assume that "subverting" the trope means that the trope will not play out at all, or that the character meant to fulfill the trope will be killed off.

GRRM is more subtle then that. Could be Jon never ends up on the throne, or it could be he does but the way he gets there is very different to what people expect of the trope. With GRRM we don't know how it will play out, that's what makes it all so intriguing.

[Groat]

I think it was AppleMartini who made a great point that for Jon, the trope subversion will come into play where, when learning about his secret lineage, he rejects it and prefers his bastard status and identity as a son of Eddard Stark. The normal stereotype would be for the hero to embrace his secret identity and really enjoy it.

As for your other comments, no one knows for sure how the series will end, and opinions vary greatly. It's pretty clear from a literary perspective that Jon Snow is the Song of Ice and Fire, but what the means in terms of his interactions with Daenerys, his fight against the Others, and the eventual state of the government of Westeros, is almost impossible to guess. At this point, all I can say, is that I have faith in Martin and even if the series ends with Jon and Dany as king and queen, Martin will write in such a way as to be emotive, intelligent, and definitely not cliche.

EDIT: Spelling was horrible

[Mladen]

I never claimed that his Targaryen heritage wasn't part of GRRM's plan all along. Yes, it is better that GRRM obviously planned it from the beginning and didn't just pull the idea out of his ass halfway through the series, but if it ends with the usual fantasy trope for such a character I don't see how that makes it an original storyline.

But, if the idea is there since inception of the saga, and if we have so many small clues indicating what`s about to happen, than that makes it part of original plotline.

Was this a thread? Could you possibly provide a link if it's not to much trouble?

A post on Jon Snow reread thread.. I finally found it :)

[Groat]

But, if the idea is there since inception of the saga, and if we have so many small clues indicating what`s about to happen, than that makes it part of original plotline.

Mladen I think we have a language barrier issue here.

Boy with hidden lineage saves the world and becomes ruler is not exactly an original plotline.

In this context, original means unique or creative. He's basically saying this type of plotline is a cliche, and not something new.

[Nymeria_Snow]

The only cliche that some people seem to support and which winds me up is the belief that Jon and Dany will fall in love and get married. If the most popular Snow parentage theory turns out to be true that makes her his aunt, and much as I know incestual unions aren't that unusual in parts of GRRM's world, I'll still find that weird.

[mcb]

Taking into account the enormous amount of details, nuances, foreshadowing, hidden references, etc, I think it's safe to say that GRRM doesn't write the books only for a normal reading. He knows people are going to pick apart every little thing and fixate on the smallest details.

And yet we miss most of what's hidden between the lines. Look at the outrage of casual readers because "ZOMG, HBO made Renly gay!". I'm not looking down on them, because I managed to miss that, too. If not for the forum, I'd be still gloriously unaware of it, and everything else that hasn't been explicitly spelled out (and twice is better than once).

I'm certain that for majority of the readers Jon Snow is a son of Eddard Stark and an unknown, presumably unimportant mother, and the reveal will be a huge surprise for them.