The Jon Snow ReRead Project!

[Manderlay]

There were three references to snow that I saw and Lummel's observation from last chapter about the summer snow representing Jon has me thinking about them. There's the snow falling off the roof as Jon and Tyrion walk by which seems deliberately meaningful but I have no ideas

I have been wondering about that ever since your observation of summer snow falling from roof tops, the best I could come up with, was Jon getting in touch with reality and his situation at the wall, realizing the full implication of his decision to join NW and serve all his life. How he thought what NW was and what his observations were. Tyrion's advices to Jon is like bringing him down to earth to his senses and reality. The summer snow falling from the rooftops to make way for fresh snow from harsh winter. meaning Jon is shedding away his misconceptions and prejudices he had

[butterbumps!]

Rag-- really wonderful analysis.

There are a few chapters between Jon II and Jon III with some relevant passages, namely the Tyrion chapter, as well as snippets from his siblings describing how they feel about him.

Tyrion II

As mentioned, this is the chapter depicting Jon and Tyrion's trek up to the Wall, culminating in a confrontation between the two that defuses into laughter. Here's a full analysis of this chapter from the Tyrion reread project, and I thought I'd pull out a few Jon-centric quotes below as well.

Tyrion's thought on Ghost:

Jon Snow’s albino direwolf pricked up his ears at the nightly howling, but never raised his own voice in reply. There was something very unsettling about that animal, Tyrion thought.

Tyrion observing Jon's "rude awakening" about the men of the Watch and feeling "sympathy" for the boy:

Tyrion noticed Jon Snow watching Yoren and his sullen companions, with an odd cast to his face that looked uncomfortably like dismay. Yoren had a twisted shoulder and a sour smell, his hair and beard were matted and greasy and full of lice, his clothing old, patched, and seldom washed. His two young recruits smelled even worse, and seemed as stupid as they were cruel.

No doubt the boy had made the mistake of thinking that the Night’s Watch was made up of men like his uncle. If so, Yoren and his companions were a rude awakening. Tyrion felt sorry for the boy. He had chosen a hard life … or perhaps he should say that a hard life had been chosen for him.

Tyrion has brought a volume from Winterfell about dragonlore. We're never told which book this is, but it goes into great detail about the properties of dragonbone. The dagger that Joffrey uses to kill Bran happens to have a dragonbone hilt. Tyrion will eventually return the book safely to Winterfell, but before he does, the Winterfell library is burnt as part of the assassination attempt. I wonder if there is some symbolism here, such that by taking the dragonlore to the Wall (i.e. Jon as the "dragon"), it served to protect its life, which would have otherwise been destroyed by staying at Winterfell.

Tyrion goads him into calling him an imp or a dwarf to his face, but Jon doesn't seem to remotely consider that that is what he sees when he looks at the man. He sees "Tyrion." Tyrion thinks he's merely being polite, and proceeds to give Jon a lesson in sharpening the mind through reading, to which Jon responds with stoicism and grave thought.

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son. “What are you reading about?” he asked.

There's clear irony at play in the bolded line about regarding how little his mother left of herself in his face. The irony continues during their exchange about "no more dragons:"

“What good is that? There are no more dragons,” the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

“So they say,” Tyrion replied. “Sad, isn’t it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own.”

Tyrion tries to goad Jon into admitting that he has dark thoughts toward members of his family, be it repressed anger or jealousy. Tyrion admits that he has fantasized of burning his family alive, but Jon insists he feels no resentment toward anyone:

“I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”

..............

“No? Never?” Tyrion raised an eyebrow. “Well, no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you. I’m certain Lady Stark treats you as if you were one of her own. And your brother Robb, he’s always been kind, and why not? He gets Winterfell and you get the Wall. And your father … he must have good reasons for packing you off to the Night’s Watch …”

This what escalates into the tense confrontation, in which Ghost intervenes. The tension is cut when Jon says Ghost attacked because he must have confused Tyrion for a "grumkin." Tyrion has stopped trying to goad Jon, and the two conclude their exchange on more equal footing:

The boy took the skin and tried a cautious swallow. “It’s true, isn’t it?” he said when he was done. “What you said about the Night’s Watch.”

Tyrion nodded.

Jon Snow set his mouth in a grim line. “If that’s what it is, that’s what it is.”

Tyrion grinned at him. “That’s good, bastard. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it.”

“Most men,” the boy said. “But not you.”

Now, without getting too far into Tyrion's character, it is rather a stretch to say that Tyrion is the sort of man willing to face hard truths at this point in the story. However, the point of his lesson is a good one, and I think Jon takes it to heart.

Finally, as Tyrion goes off to sleep he sees Jon staring into the fires, recalling Tyrion's confession of wishing to see his family burned alive. It seems Tyrion assumes Jon is also indulging this fantasy as he stares into the flame, though, I'm not so certain that's the truth of what's occurring.

Sansa I

This is where Sansa and Arya have a run-in with Joffrey on the Trident. Full analysis of this can be found here (Sansa)

The reference here is brief, yielding insight about her thoughts on bastardy and Jon:

It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon’s mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn’t been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa’s trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.

Bran III

This was already brought up by Nenya, but I thought I'd include it here as well:

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

“Why?” Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

I would also like to add that much like Mormont's raven, this crow is very much intent on eating corn in this chapter while Bran is falling:

I’m trying, the crow replied. Say, got any corn?

................

You’ll die when you hit the ground, the crow said. It went back to eating corn.

[Ragnorak]

I have been wondering about that ever since your observation of summer snow falling from roof tops, the best I could come up with, was Jon getting in touch with reality and his situation at the wall, realizing the full implication of his decision to join NW and serve all his life. How he thought what NW was and what his observations were. Tyrion's advices to Jon is like bringing him down to earth to his senses and reality. The summer snow falling from the rooftops to make way for fresh snow from harsh winter.

Jon certainly does come down to earth this chapter. There is the shutter banging and the buildings creaking from the wind and all the abandoned ruin-like structures. The haunted feel could be a Ghost connection. The wind could be a Bloodraven connection. Bran is brought down to earth too by waking. Maybe there is a parallel to Bran's fall? Does Hardin's Tower's description bear any resemblance to the tower where Bran fell? I seem to recall Theon in Dance visiting the site and thinking of the fallen stones around the place Bran fell. Was it the First Keep that Bran fell from? That could tie into the keep/armory thing. Did that building have a lean to it? I'll need to dig up some of those passages later but maybe there's a Bran connection buried in there somewhere.

Very nice work on the interim passages, Butterbumps.

[Melonica Stormborn]

@Ragnorak really did a very eloquent summary of Tyrion II and Jon III; like the others, I'm hard pressed to add to it. :)

I'm really interested in what Jon saw in the fires. Stare long enough and one will see something. Somehow this scene reminded me of Mel.

In Jon III, Jon was surrounded by ice/cold imagery (as pointed by others) so it stood out that Benjen specifically called him a green boy with summer still in him, and rightly so. Before this chapter, Jon never realized that he was being a bully because his bastard status instilled in him the feeling that he was the one being bullied.

Meanwhile, Jon associated the feeling of warmth with Arya in Jon II; in Jon III he was very concerned about forgetting how it feels to be warm. True enough, he wanted to hold on to Arya and Winterfell. It seems here that Arya could be the fire to Jon's ice.

[Winterfellian]

If I may, I will like to take a small detour from Jon III and Ragnorak's excellent analysis to vent some thoughts regarding:

Jon and the hero archetype

I think is safe to say that from the beginning of his arch Jon Snow fits the profile of the hero archetype. But now as his story progresses we start to spot the rich details that Martin imbeds into his story so as to keep him separated from the general trope and make him as much a part of ASOIAF as classic ambivalent characters such as Tyrion, Jaime, Theon, etc. I thought it worthwhile to explore this at this early stage of the reading. Now to the point am trying to make...

What makes Jon an archetypal hero?

First of all, the archetypal hero appears in all religions, mythologies, and epics of the world. For the purpose of this analysis am not going to delve too much into the archetype theories by Jung and Campbell, but concentrate in the literary hero as a whole. Some of the common characteristics for hero archetypes are the following:

- Unusual circumstances of birth

- The hero is generally raised by someone else other than his parents, or forced to heave

his home and travel to a strange world or place to grow up, unaware of his true origins

- An event sometimes traumatic, leads to adventure or quest

- Hero has a special weapon only he can wield

- Hero always has supernatural help

- The hero must prove himself/herself many times while on adventure

- The journey and the unhealed wound

- Hero experiences atonement with the father

- When the hero dies, he is rewarded spiritually.

(Notice how many of these traits can be applied to many other characters other than Jon? ;))

I personally don’t see the fact that Jon fits this archetype as necessarily a bad thing. I think a great part relies on the motivations the author gives to the character (and this is something I firmly believe GRRM excels at), as well as the richness and complexity of the world in which he moves.

But mostly because I feel that GRRM set Jon (and other characters as well) in established roles, in Jon’s case the hero, in order to deconstruct and/or subvert the very idea of the role as the story moves forward, aided by the singular POV structure of the novels. By doing this he is making sure to shatter the sometimes idealized version of humanity the hero stands for and encourage us, readers, to reflect upon what truly makes a hero or even a villain within the context of ASOIAF. In this story a villain can well be a hero and viceversa. It all depends in where you stand on as Jon himself reflects after crossing the Wall in ACOK.

Even at this early stage of the story we detect traces of subversion intent by the author and not only through the POV structure of ASOIAF. Take Jon’s birth for example. Yes, the circumstances are unclear. And is very possible that he has a royal claim to the throne. But from the very beginning of his arch he is set in a path that would nullify any royal claim he might have had through his secret parentage. By doing this GRRM is subverting the expectations we might have held when Jon’s parentage is first brought to the table. In Jon III we are reminded of the importance that perspective matters when Jon is confronted with the reality that he is in fact a bully.

Viewing Jon through the archetype

One thing that stands out for me regarding Jon is that despite his secret parentage, direwolf, bastard status, etc. Jon remains very much a normal guy for our standards. Hence why sometimes, as readers, we can fall victim of judging and analyzing Jon’s actions only through our omniscient and modern perspective and forget that we must channel Jon’s thought process and actions through the context of the world in which he moves. When this happens we can become prone to erroneously (in my opinion) attach adjectives such as boring, perfect, bland or god forbid the infamous Gary Stu to his name.

Jon’s actions or decisions may not make us uncomfortable as those of other characters in the sense that they align with most our XXIst century mind and morals. But I don’t think they are meant to do this. They are meant to be challenging, but for those who contemplate them through the adequate set of mind and moral code pertaining ASOIAF.

[Mladen]

snip

Winterfellian, this was brilliantly written. I love your post.

I do believe Jon is archetype hero, but one thing is certain, he isn`t stereotype hero. He has all the qualities you mentioned, but also, he doesn`t fit into heroic boxes. He isn`t flawless hero, with undeniable courage and strength. He isn`t someone that can overcome everything. And deconstructing stereotype and staying loyal to archetype is what Martin does the best. And that`s why, IMO, his world is so rich and poetic.

Another thing you pointed out, and GRRM had done superbly is that he allowed us to see Jon quite objectively. We can both love him and hate him in different situation, he can be the badass and annoying bastard boy. There is so uch subtelties in Jon`s story that makes him perfect hero, but not the hero we have all been seeing for so long. The twist GRRM has brought into everyone`s, including Jon`s story, is something that ultimately determines the tone of the books, and the fate of the characters.

Again, brilliant work, Winterfellian. Well done, indeed

[Florina Laufeyson]

I would also like to add that much like Mormont's raven, this crow is very much intent on eating corn in this chapter while Bran is falling:

Yes i found that quite interesting. Which leads me to the three eyed crow and Mormont's Raven being tied to the same person.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

This, to me, foreshadows that Jon will wake up one day and become truly cold as ice in his own way. Aemon eventually tells him to "kill the boy." Perhaps Bran is seeing that?

Winterfellian, great post! This is why i think Jon is actually our main protagonist. GRRM disguises his archetypes rather well and leads the reader in unusual ways. But hes pretty straight forward with Jon. Jon has all the marks of the "Hero's Journey" perhaps more so than Dany. I see Dany as the foil to Jon. Both characters have arcs that parallel each other in a lot of ways. Dany goes from super submissive to rather headstrong and entitled. With Jon, he goes from arrogant and entitled to a stoic leader. Both have people around them constantly challenging them, but one ends up facing consequences much harder than the other. Especially since that one ends up getting first hand experience with the pointy end.

Like the Hero archetype, its rather clear that Jon will be like a phoenix. Rise again stronger than before.

[Fire Eater]

@Florina Stark

Since Jon is the one fitting the hero archetype, and Dany is his foil, does that mean she will be the villain to the Starks compared to Jon as the hero?

Tyrion with the gnarled walking stick is playing the role of the sage in Jon's POV, a kind of Yoda, giving Jon advice.

I'd like to thank evita mgfs for this one:

The gaunt outlines of huge catapults and monstrous wooden cranes stood sentry up there, like the skeletons of giant birds

Dany's dragons will come to the Wall

[Elba the Intoner]

Darn, this is the problem when I am behind on the chapter posts. By the time I read the chapters and come to post my observations, others have already said much of what I wanted to say, like in Tyrion II I also noted the irony of the "there are no dragons" discussion.

Ok, so here are a few random things:

Tyrion II -

Jon's reaction to Yoren and the Night's Watch "recruits" is similar to Sansa's.

Tyrion noticed Jon Snow watching Yoren and his sullen companions, with an odd cast to his face that looked uncomfortably like dismay. ...

[descriptions of Yoren being crookbacked, smelly and filled with lice and the boys as smelly and lice ridden]

No doubt the boy had made the mistake of thinking that the Night's Watch was made up of men like his uncle. If so, Yoren and his companions were a rude awakening. Tyrion felt sorry for the boy. ...

From AGOT, Sansa III -

"There was a black brother," Sansa said, "begging men for the Wall, only he was kind of old and smelly." She hadn't liked that at all. She had always imagined the Night's Watch to be men like Uncle Benjen. In the songs, they were called the black knights of the Wall. But this man had been crookbacked and hideous, and he looked as though he might have lice. If this is what the Night's Watch was truly like, she felt sorry for her bastard half brother, Jon.

Sansa makes the same exact observation as Tyrion. I think all the Stark kids had very idealized views of knights, including both the King's Guard (Bran wanted to be one) and the Night's Watch, and when they face reality it hits them all hard.

In Jon's chapter when he gets his lecture from Donal Noye, Noye echoes these thoughts as well: "Yes. Cold and hard and mean, that's the Wall, and the men who walk it. Not like the stories your wet nurse told you."

Also from Tyrion II, at the very end Jon "had drawn the night's first watch." Tyrion looks back and sees Jon staring into the fire, "his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames." This comes just after Jon has resigned himself to the fact that if Tyrion's version of what the Night's Watch truly is is true then so be it. This last bit symbolizes that. He has drawn the first watch and is looking deeply into the fire. We have the watcher theme take root here. Also, I think this is the first of Jon's many associations with fire.

In Jon III - more foreshadowing of Jon's fate at the end of Dance out of the mouth of Donal Noye:

"Yes, life," Noye said. "A long life or a short one, it's up to you, Snow. The road you're walking, one of your brothers will slit your throat for you one night."

[Lady of Long Lake]

I possibly should wait til next chapter, but it's on my mind now.

I really like the relationship between Jon and Tyrion... I find it oddly strange but somehow touching at the same time. But tonight, while rereading I couldn't help but ask - why them? Why are they friends? Maybe I'm looking too deeply into this, possibly I am.

They are both outsiders, yes, but Tyrion didn't have to go to the wall.

Tyrion went to the Wall to experience it, see it, touch it. He's inquisitive by nature and a history buff because of all the reading he's done:)

I loved the part when Jon held out his hand and called Tyrion "friend"! It was SO uncharacteristic for reserved Jon and it totally threw Tyrion for a loop to have someone be so nice to him. They both went way out of their way to make the other feel appreciated and liked.

I think they feel an affinity with each other. Both come from the greatest houses in the land and both are the shame of their families. Mind you, most of the family members don't think of them that way!! But Tyrion and Jon think of themselves that way :( I think they are drawn to each other out of compassion because they know how the other one has felt.

I hope they end up together at the end of this story. Tyrion would be a brilliant addition to the Wall and it would be healthy for Jon to have another friend there besides Sam ( if they all live). He tends to take a fatherly role with Sam, rather than a best friend role, because Sam needs that kind of support.

[Isildur's Mane]

Tyrion went to the Wall to experience it, see it, touch it. He's inquisitive by nature and a history buff because of all the reading he's done:)

I loved the part when Jon held out his hand and called Tyrion "friend"! It was SO uncharacteristic for reserved Jon and it totally threw Tyrion for a loop to have someone be so nice to him. They both went way out of their way to make the other feel appreciated and liked.

I think they feel an affinity with each other. Both come from the greatest houses in the land and both are the shame of their families. Mind you, most of the family members don't think of them that way!! But Tyrion and Jon think of themselves that way :( I think they are drawn to each other out of compassion because they know how the other one has felt.

I hope they end up together at the end of this story. Tyrion would be a brilliant addition to the Wall and it would be healthy for Jon to have another friend there besides Sam ( if they all live). He tends to take a fatherly role with Sam, rather than a best friend role, because Sam needs that kind of support.

Yes, their friendship fascinates me. I really do hope they get to meet up with each other before the end.

I agree with you with what you said about Tyrion going to the wall to experience it etc, I guess I'm looking too closely to it.

I really like your observation about Jon calling Tyrion 'friend' first, and how it seemed so out of character, it reminded me how Ghost was the first to comfort Sam, and how that was out of character for Ghost (sorry, couldn't help myself by going even further).

[Manderlay]

Finally, as Tyrion goes off to sleep he sees Jon staring into the fires, recalling Tyrion's confession of wishing to see his family burned alive. It seems Tyrion assumes Jon is also indulging this fantasy as he stares into the flame, though, I'm not so certain that's the truth of what's occurring.

Excellent analysis, the best part I liked in the tyrion chapter was when he goes back to sleep he looks at jon staring into the fires with a Sad Smile, Jon contemplating the choice he has made and the hard truth he got from tyrion. I just started my first re-read, eager for the next analysis.

[Targaryen_Rubies]

Taking Ghost opening his eyes first and the incident with Tyrion as signs that Jon has a stronger mind's eye than we're led to believe I found this in the chapter: " As he watched his uncle lead his horse into the tunnel, Jon had remembered the things that Tyrion Lannister told him on the kingsroad, and in his mind's eye he saw Ben Stark lying dead, his blood red on the snow."

The interesting thing is that later he refers to it as a vision not dream a couple times in the chapter. At first I thought the word vision didn't mean anything but later he uses it; "They had heard something about Benjen, he thought wildly, he was dead, the vision had come true."

And if Benjen is dead, Morment's bird refers to Ben as dead somewhere, then at this time Jon would have glimpsed the future.

My question here is if the vision is true and Jon did have a vision of the future then is this coming from the stark side or can it be attributed to r+l=j since Targs have dreams and visions(?)

[butterbumps!]

Interstitial chapters between Jon III – Jon IV

NED IV

This is where Ned arrives at KL, is called to the council meeting to discuss the “Hand’s” Tourney, then goes with LF to meet Cat in a brothel.

I wanted to pull out this passage; it doesn’t relate to Jon directly, but confirms the coma dream Bran had in his last chapter (Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart.) More significantly, though, Ned’s mention of a “frozen hell” for the Starks seems apropos to note in relation to Jon’s dream in the next chapter in which he roams the crypts.

He had only to look at Sansa’s face to feel the rage twisting inside him once again. The last fortnight of their journey had been a misery. Sansa blamed Arya and told her that it should have been Nymeria who died. And Arya was lost after she heard what had happened to her butcher’s boy. Sansa cried herself to sleep, Arya brooded silently all day long, and Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.

I find the next two passages quite interesting, mainly as embedded support for R+L, but also, in the adjacency of Sansa and Jon. Sansa has just lost Lady, and we’re reminded here that it was Jon who spoke as the intermediary between the “gods” and Ned to enable his sibling’s possession of them:

What was it that Jon had said when they found the pups in the snow? Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord. And he had killed Sansa’s, and for what? Was it guilt he was feeling? Or fear? If the gods had sent these wolves, what folly had he done?

Then there’s an other grouping of Sansa and Jon (indirectly) here, as he associates Sansa’s pleas for her pup with those of Lyanna’s:

Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert’s talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

I wanted to bring these up, as Sansa and Jon never have any on-screen interaction, which makes me believe that little connections like this may hold future significance (the connection to R + L is clear here, though I meant significance beyond this).

TYRION III

This is where Tyrion shares a meal of crabs with Mormont, gets an info-dump about the state of the Watch, and talks with Jon one last time from the top of the Wall. A full analysis can be found here.

Alliser Thorne is the most misunderstood man in Westeros

I think this deserves a post of its own. The last few times I’ve read through these early Jon chapters, I’ve found myself questioning the true malfeasance of Alliser. Going back over Jon III, and looking at this chapter and Jon IV, I’m not certain Alliser is actually as nefarious as one might think. For example, he’s actually correct in Jon III, when he criticizes Jon’s pride at having beaten Grenn, saying that he didn’t actually win, but rather, that Grenn lost. Here, Tyrion was actually making light of the NW (though not maliciously), and Alliser wasn’t incorrect to try to call Tyrion on it—that is, he did correctly detect a hint of mockery. Even Mormont comments to this end:

Lord Commander Mormont cleared his throat. “Sometimes I fear Ser Alliser saw you true, Tyrion. You do mock us and our noble purpose here.”

Tyrion shrugged. “We all need to be mocked from time to time, Lord Mormont, lest we start to take ourselves too seriously.”

Looking at this, I think a case could be made for Alliser’s methods as tough, but honest in terms of preparing the trainees for their paths. However, against Alliser’s case is this line stating that he never taught the boys the basics of swordfighting: “Thorne had never even shown [Pyp] the proper way to grip a sword.”

I’m increasingly interested in what’s become of Alliser, and I wonder just how “bad” he really is.

Stirred feelings

Mormont seems to have barely taken any notice of Jon by this chapter. When Tyrion suggests that Jon accompanies him back to Winterfell, Mormont firmly counsels against this, as Jon needs critical distance: “Snow? Oh, the Stark bastard. I think not. The young ones need to forget the lives they left behind them, the brothers and mothers and all that. A visit home would only stir up feelings best left alone. I know these things. My own blood kin … my sister Maege rules Bear Island now, since my son’s dishonor. I have nieces I have never seen.”

State of the Watch Address

Mormont makes a plea to Tyrion, detailing the decrepit state of the Watch, imploring him to send more resources. Though Tyrion does not take this very seriously during the conversation, unease begins to stir in him as he stands atop the Wall afterward (Tyrion will much later reflect fondly on his shared meal with Mormont, revealing lasting sympathy with the Old Bear and his words here):

Tell them of our need here. You have seen for yourself, my lord. The Night’s Watch is dying. Our strength is less than a thousand now. Six hundred here, two hundred in the Shadow Tower, even fewer at Eastwatch, and a scant third of those fighting men. The Wall is a hundred leagues long. Think on that. Should an attack come, I have three men to defend

each mile of wall.”

……………………

Too old and too weary for the burden I bear, yet if I set it down, who will pick it up? Alliser Thorne? Bowen Marsh? I would have to be as blind as Maester Aemon not to see what they are. The Night’s Watch has become an army of sullen boys and tired old men.

“The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore.”

(I also thought it noteworthy reports of Others have already gotten to Mormont already in the series).

Goodbyes

Jon and Tyrion walk a mile along his post at the top of the Wall. Tyrion offers to bring word to his brothers at Winterfell:

“Tell Robb that I’m going to command the Night’s Watch and keep him safe, so he might as well take up needlework with the girls and have Mikken melt down his sword for horseshoes.”

……………..

“Rickon will ask when I’m coming home. Try to explain where I’ve gone, if you can. Tell him he can have all my things while I’m away, he’ll like that.”

……………..

I don’t know what message to send to Bran. Help him, Tyrion.”

Of course, half of Jon’s message to Robb will come true, only too late to save him (and against a different enemy). Given GNC speculation, I find the message to let Rickon have “all of [Jon’s] things” perhaps a hint against impositions on his brother’s claim. Tyrion’s promise wrt Bran brings the two together in friendship:

“You’re asking a lame man to teach a cripple how to dance,” Tyrion said. “However sincere the lesson, the result is likely to be grotesque. Still, I know

what it is to love a brother, Lord Snow. I will give Bran whatever small help is in my power.”

“Thank you, my lord of Lannister.” He pulled off his glove and offered his bare hand. “Friend.”

Tyrion found himself oddly touched. “Most of my kin are bastards,” he said with a wry smile, “but you’re the first I’ve had to friend.”

ARYA II

This is where Arya leaves a dinner with her father’s men abruptly, leading into a long conversation between her and her father, resulting in the introduction of dancing lessons with Syrio. A full analysis can be found here.

I wanted to include these lines as indirectly related to Jon. I think we can assume that Jon received the same lesson from Ned about leadership, and the issue of shared meals will come up again in DwD:

Her father used to say that a lord needed to eat with his men, if he hoped to keep them. “Know the men who follow you,” she heard him tell Robb once, “and let them know you. Don’t ask your men to die for a stranger.”

I wanted to pull this bit of Arya-Lyanna-Jon convergence in the same way I believe the parallel with Sansa is significant as well. Ned find her sword and inquires how she came to own it:

Lord Eddard Stark sighed. “My nine-year-old daughter is being armed from my own forge, and I know nothing of it. The Hand of the King is expected to rule the Seven Kingdoms, yet it seems I cannot even rule my own household. How is it that you come to own a sword, Arya? Where did you get this?”

Arya chewed her lip and said nothing. She would not betray Jon, not even to their father.

This speaks to Ned’s own promise to not betray Jon, even to his wife and family. Ned then brings up Arya’s parallels to Lyanna, leading him to comfort Arya’s decision to throw rocks at Nymeria for her own safety:

Only she kept following, and finally we had to throw rocks. I hit her twice. She whined and looked at me and I felt so ’shamed, but it was right, wasn’t it? The queen would have killed her.”

“It was right,” her father said. “And even the lie was … not without honor.”

I think the shame and hurt Arya feels about saving Nym’s life by pushing her away is something of a parable to Ned’s guarding Jon’s life with a similar “honorable lie” of shame.

BRAN IV

This chapter contains Old Nan’s full account of the Long Night, and depicts Tyrion’s return to Winterfell, giving Bran the blueprints for a saddle. Only a few passages stand out as pertinent to Jon’s arc.

Robb stood and pointed at the little man with his sword. “I am the lord here while my mother and father are away, Lannister. I am not your boy.”

“If you are a lord, you might learn a lord’s courtesy,” the little man replied, ignoring the sword point in his face. “Your bastard brother has all your father’s graces, it would seem.”

I’m not certain that this is a fair assessment of Robb, though.

When asked why Tyrion has taken this interest in Bran, he brings up Jon as the arbiter of provision for his siblings: ““Your brother Jon asked it of me. And I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples and bastards and broken things.” Tyrion Lannister placed a hand over his heart and grinned.” It does strike me how often it seems Jon is in an arbitration position within his family: the direwolves, Needle, this saddle, and promises to let Rickon have his belongings.

On a final (heartbreaking) note, the chapter ends with Robb and Bran thinking of how to see Jon again: “Mother will be home soon. Maybe we can ride out to meet her when she comes. Wouldn’t that surprise her, to see you ahorse?” Even in the dark room, Bran could feel his brother’s smile. “And afterward, we’ll ride north to see the Wall. We won’t even tell Jon we’re coming, we’ll just be there one day, you and me. It will be an adventure.”

[Ice Turtle]

I think that the line about Rickon is a foreshadowing but I wonder if it's about Rickon taking Jon's place or Jon taking Rickon's till the other returns.

One quote that wasn't mentioned:

Tyrion scratched the white wolf behind the ears. The red eyes watched him impassively. The beast came up as high as his chest now. Another year, and Tyrion had the gloomy feeling he’d be looking up at him.

It think that the next time they will meet, Jon will be in higher position than Tyrion, or maybe Jon will be one giving Tyrion advices. Though word "gloomy" could also hints that they won't meet as friends.

[Winterfellian]

@Mladen and Florina, thank you both for the kind words! :)

Butterbumps, great post! Am glad that you guys are taking the time to cover the in between chapters in Jon’s arch. I share your feelings about Allyser Thorne. As things stand I belive his story with Jon isn't over.

About Jon and Tyrion’s meeting:

For me this meeting is a follow up on their encounter in Jon III and as so there are a few interesting parallels and contrasts.

As in Jon III Tyrion catches Jon unaware again. Tyrion remarks that there’s much to be said about catching people unaware. So what do the two meetings say about Jon? In the words of Jennifer Donnelly: Sometimes, when you catch someone unaware at just the right time and in just the right light, you can catch sight of what they will be. In both instances when Jon is surprised he calls Tyrion “Lannister”. How many others would have answered imp or something similar? This reminds me of when Tyrion tried to get Jon to call him a dwarf on their way to the wall and yet Jon replies that he sees only Tyrion Lannister. Jon sees Tyrion for himself not for being a dwarf or his father’s son. By ADWD Jon has become a person that sees men for what they are, only men.

The place of both meetings I also find it to be symbolic. The first one in Jon III takes place at the base of the wall when Jon is looking up while he feels the great weight of all that ice pressing down on him, as if it were about to topple. In this one Jon is found at the very top serving as one of the watchers on the wall. By the time of the last meeting Jon was still very unhappy recruit with the Wall; he had no friends and was still susceptible at being called Lord Snow. In short, he didn’t fit in. The Jon we see in Tyrion’s chapter is no longer an outcast. Yes he’s still low in the chain of command as a recruit in training but he has earned himself a place amongst his peers by teaching what Ser Allyser will not and even a place at the top of the wall as a result of his actions with Ser Allyser and the rest of the boys.

Ironically, in ADWD where Jon is figurative at the top of the Watch as LC he once again is isolated and feels the weight of the Wall pressing down on him but now in the form of responsibility.

ETA:

There’s a bittersweet and yet satisfying feeling with Jon’s goodbye to Tyrion. Jon’s last remaining link to WF besides Ghost is going away. And yet we see that Jon has learned from Tyrion's lessons (and he gives one every time they interact- never forget who you are, some men will rather deny a hard truth rather than accept it, make Lord Snow your name). Jon has learned all that he can from Tyrion and now he sends him and his words to his brother Bran hoping that he in turn can learn from him.

Am going to start working on a way to make my posts shorter ;)

[Ragnorak]

Very nice and very thorough, Butterbumps.

I think you are being overly kind to our friend Thorne though you are on to something. Mormont says

Too old and too weary for the burden I bear, yet if I set it down, who will pick it up? Alliser Thorne? Bowen Marsh? I would have to be as blind as Maester Aemon not to see what they are.

There is also the nature of Thorne's behavior and choices when he returns with Slynt. If I recall Thorne is one of the men who was originally loyal to the Targaryens and chose the Wall over bending the knee. The path Jon was walking prior to Noye's speech strikes me as very close to the path I imagine Thorne walking when he arrived at the Wall. At the Wall a man only gets what he earns is only so true. Waymar Royce got a command by birth not merit and Thorne seems similar. We'll see this political reality at the Wall return later when Jon chooses Satin as his steward.

I think your Alliser observations have merit but I think there is too much bitterness in Thorne at his own fate and too much Southron noble entitlement. I would love to see Cotter Pyke and Thorne in a Watch staff meeting. Based on his sailing to Hardhome I'm pretty damn sure Cotter Pyke earned every bit of his leadership position at Eastwatch, but he's lowborn. I don't see Thorne as ever accepting a Cotter Pyke as a leader, or giving a Cotter Pyke what he's earned at the Wall because of his own bitterness and sentiments about nobility. He would always expect that the lowborn Pyke tender him respect for his noble birth-- or at least that's how I read him.

I really like how you pulled the R+L=J connections out of the various chapters and even tied them to the bonds among the Stark children. I had a notion a while ago to try and put together a Sansa and Arya as two sides of Lyanna thread but couldn't find enough material to make it work. I missed those connections when I was looking for them so I'm impressed.

Great stuff on the placement of the Jon/Tyrion meeting, Winterfellian

[Manderlay]

Alliser Thorne is the most misunderstood man in Westeros

I think this deserves a post of its own. The last few times I’ve read through these early Jon chapters, I’ve found myself questioning the true malfeasance of Alliser. Going back over Jon III, and looking at this chapter and Jon IV, I’m not certain Alliser is actually as nefarious as one might think. For example, he’s actually correct in Jon III, when he criticizes Jon’s pride at having beaten Grenn, saying that he didn’t actually win, but rather, that Grenn lost. Here, Tyrion was actually making light of the NW (though not maliciously), and Alliser wasn’t incorrect to try to call Tyrion on it—that is, he did correctly detect a hint of mockery. Even Mormont comments to this end:

Looking at this, I think a case could be made for Alliser’s methods as tough, but honest in terms of preparing the trainees for their paths. However, against Alliser’s case is this line stating that he never taught the boys the basics of swordfighting: “Thorne had never even shown [Pyp] the proper way to grip a sword.”

I’m increasingly interested in what’s become of Alliser, and I wonder just how “bad” he really is.

Nice Post

Interesting point you made about Alliser Thorne, I think he is a shade of grey just like so many characters in ASOIAF, I believe his actions are more out of bitterness rather than malicious, but his actions do portray him as bad, Alliser Thorne has been at the wall for several years now, IIRC he was sent because he was on the loosing side, he is a knight who seen the scum of westeros sent to the wall, the NW used to be an honourable calling, very few houses believe that now and most of them in the North, the majority of the south has forgotten the NW and views their order as scumbags. Not many knights take the black. He also didn't rise high in the NW the way he wanted, now I am not saying master at arms is a low post, he was still a high officer but not as high as he wanted to be. All of this can be viewed as Thorne's source of bitterness and perhaps more and he takes it out on the green boys he is training.

However, Alliser Thorne does somewhat turn malicious towards Jon and does his best to have him declared traitor and die a traitor's death. But this is in the future chapters, maybe this is offtopic.

[Mladen]

@Mladen and Florina, thank you both for the kind words! :)

You deserve it, Winterfellian. And I was just so amazed by that post of yours. Actually I still am :)

Ironically, in ADWD where Jon is figurative at the top of the Watch as LC he once again is isolated and feels the weight of the Wall pressing down on him but now in the form of responsibility.

That isolation is something I usually relate to that line Galadriel said to Frodo `to bear the ring of power is to be alone`, and I use it as referrenece when solitude and ruling are in question. For Jon`s solitude is something foreshadowing his uniqueness. When you look all around him, you`ll se how unique he`s. His wolf, that is the only out of six that can`t be find in nature(albino wolves is believed not to exist in real world) makes symbolical unique personnality out of all Stark children. And solitude of his, is what I believe is strong foreshadowing for him to one day rule the Westeros or North.

I had a notion a while ago to try and put together a Sansa and Arya as two sides of Lyanna thread but couldn't find enough material to make it work. I missed those connections when I was looking for them so I'm impressed.

Ragnorak, we should talk about this, I am most interested to hear your thoughts of Arya and Sansa being too sides of Lyanna, for that is also something that has been dwelling on my mind for some time.

[Manderlay]

snip

Interesting, I believe Hardin's tower has broken battlements IIRC, and the bran fell from the abandoned tower with broken top open to the elements where the crows come and bran feed them sometimes, you are onto something.