GRRM, literary conventions and Jon Snow

[The guy from the Vale]

Mladen I think we have a language barrier issue here.

In this context, original means unique or creative. He's basically saying this type of plotline is a cliche, and not something new.

Let me quote Goethe here, I'll try to translate as well as I can."Every smart thought has been thought before. You only have to think it again."

[Mladen]

Mladen I think we have a language barrier issue here.

In this context, original means unique or creative. He's basically saying this type of plotline is a cliche, and not something new.

Got it... I thought about being oart from beginning, not in terms of creativity...

[Guest]

What I don't understand is why so many people think that Jon has to be the one in the Iron Throne if L + R = J.

To me, the Prince that was Promised does not mean he's going to be the one to sit the Iron Throne. He's destined to save the realm from darkness and Jon Snow is in EXACTLY THE RIGHT PLACE for it. Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is the one leading the first line of defense against the others.

Also, I think this would make it more tragic if he died - he's well on his way to fulfilling his destiny only to have a couple blockheads who have no inkling of what they've done run him through.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Ah, we didn't have one like these today yet. Who's going to make tomorrow's?

[MRHD]

Let me quote Goethe here, I'll try to translate as well as I can."Every smart thought has been thought before. You only have to think it again."

That's a good quote, certainly it is hard to have a new idea when so many stories have been written in human history. Although I'm sure GRRM could think of some ways to make a storyline that it would be hard to pin down a prior story that did the same thing.

Say against all expectations from 99% of the readers including myself that Jon really IS dead and doesn't come back to life. Then the realm later finds out that a bunch of nobodies killed Azor Ahai Reborn who was supposed to be the hero to save the realm from the Others and that they are now all doomed. Might be something Mark Twain would have written, had writing fantasy been his thing. ;)

[Winterfellian]

So I haven't been around this forum for very long, but I've noticed that a lot of people expect Jon Snow to be AA/PtwP and end up on the Iron Throne or as KitN (I do know not everyone agrees). However GRRM has spent five books deconstructing fantasy norms, so why would he then make Jon a cliché of either the hero who saves the world and ends up king or the martyr who dies while saving the world? And what makes this especially banal is that Jon seems to have a secret royal lineage (assuming R+L=J). GRRM has consistently shown that blue blood does not make someone better, more noble etc. While i do think that Jon Snow probably has an important role to play, given his general storyline and how much he's been developed, I can't imagine it ending up like my examples above without GRRM somehow subverting the fantasy genre conventions that lead to that expectation. I think it would actually be much more interesting if R+L=J and he's still a bastard and no one finds out (or no one but him), and if he survives to the end, stays in the NW, doesn't ride and/or skinchange a dragon and doesn't play the pivotal role in saving Westeros from the WW (if that indeed needs to happen).

Not all of his fans (and I include myself in this) expect him to sit the IT or be a King the fully political sense of the word or save the world all by himself.

You seem to think that the deconstruction/subversion of an archetype involves only the final result (becoming king or saving the world), but for me it involves the whole process that leads to the said result as well as the impact it has in the world in which said character, in this case Jon, moves. By focusing only in the end result you are denying yourself the chance to explore the character further, especially considering that ASOIAF is a story where the POV of other characters really matters.

Take for example, Jon’s hidden parentage and Kingship. His lineage certainly might provide him with a claim to the throne, but almost from the beginning GRRM subjected him to an institution and vows that nullify whatever claim he might have had through his connection to Rhaegar, therefore subverting our own expectations for its parentage once we realize it. If we, as readers, still expect Jon to become King we must asks ourselves, how then? Robb’s will? Duty? He might see it see it as duty to accept Robb’s will in order to further the chances against the Others. But then, how will his siblings view this act through their own POVs? Will him accepting the will make him a traitor in his siblings’ eyes and prove Cat’s fears about him true?

And this is just an example. There are many variables in play if Jon becomes King, and in we focus only in the Crowning aspect of it we might miss them.

[Jabronius Maximus]

When you look at how Jon became LC, that wasn't cliche at all. It wasn't like the others realized 'hey, this guy knows what he's doing, and he's Ned's son! Let's vote for him!'. It was by some devious maneuvering by Sam. Now Sam's a good guy and all, but that move would make LF proud.

So, as he became LC, he could become King in a non-cliche way (although I don't want him to; his place is at the wall). For example, he could see that Westeros sucks and can't see the true threat, and decides to grab the throne by force to organize a proper defense. Or he could assume the Northern Crown to marshal the defenses of the realm. But it won't at all be a rosy event, like Aragorn returning to the throne of men or something like that. And he will most likely die by the end of the series.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

So, as he became LC, he could become King in a non-cliche way (although I don't want him to; his place is at the wall).

I just can't see the Wall surviving the entire series. At some point it's got to come down or be subverted by the others in some manner, or they were a pointless plot element, and I just don't see that being the case. To me, the "oh crap" moment of Winds of Winter will be the wall crumbling, be it by someone sounding the horn, or by the magic of the others, or some long buried dragon melting it to the ground.

And when the Wall is gone, is there really any Night's Watch left?

I think Jon will still feel both the need and feel honor bound to face the Others, but to do so, he'll have to enlist help from the seven kingdoms, and if that means him accepting his lineage and uniting them under his banner, then that's what he'll do, much like he accepted the LC title and brought in Wildlings, because he recognizes the true threat to Westeros, and will do everything in his power to battle against it.

[Summah]

You seem to think that the deconstruction/subversion of an archetype involves only the final result (becoming king or saving the world), but for me it involves the whole process that leads to the said result as well as the impact it has in the world in which said character, in this case Jon, moves. By focusing only in the end result you are denying yourself the chance to explore the character further, especially considering that ASOIAF is a story where the POV of other characters really matters.

I agree that Jon is a heroic archetype character has been subverted from the beginning, I thought that implicit in my statement about the 5 books deconstructing conventions. But we have the beginning and middle of his story arc in those 5 books, and we'll get his ending when TWOW and ADOS are published, and since there is so much speculation here about what will happen, I focused on that. But because this subversion is such a large part of the books, I find it ironic that so many people seem to want such a trite ending as Jon saves the world, becomes king and everyone lives happily ever after or whatever. That type of ending would undo the pre-existing deconstruction and just turn him into a cliche. I don't think that GRRM would do that. I think his ending will be as subverted as the rest of his story is. And happily it seems that most of the people who replied to this topic don't want to see that type of cliched ending for the character.

[Ser Arc]

Jon's story is very easy to subvert.

Jon is the PtWP, Azor Ahai, R+L=J, KitN, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch that rides a dragon and slays the Others...only for Varys to convince everyone his mummer dragon is the real deal and comes first in succession.

[Tagganaro]

I actually agree with a decent amount of the OP- As a big Jon Snow fan, I for one gag at the thought of such an awful "cliche" ending. GRRM won't allow it I would hope. Certainly there are a few Jon Snow "fanboys" who are over the top with their "It's all about Jon...It MUST be all about Jon in the end" fanaticism, but I wouldn't substitute those few extreme views in for the majority of Jon Snow fans. Just like we take other extreme fan's views of certain characters with a grain of salt, I'd do the same when you see that kind of crap that you talk about in the OP.

[johnnysd]

I think that the opinions here are quite a bit different from a normal reader of the series. It seems so obvious to all of us who've obsessed over the books and pulled apart every last detail, and overturned every little nugget of information squirreled away in the books.

There's nothing obvious about Jon Snow or his lineage in a normal read of the books, just small hints that wouldn't even be picked up by a normal read.

So I'm going to disagree with your premise, and say that there would be nothing whatsoever cliche about Jon Snow eventually either taking the throne, or sacrificing himself as a martyr.

Really? It would be completely cliche because all of the elements would be revealed. In fact, if John were to sit the Iron Throne ASOIAF would have devolved to include the BIGGEST cliche in the genre. It is why I hope he is actually dead. It would hammer the point home that this is not a cliched fairy tale and his "royal blood" in the end meant nothing. He was truly just Jon Snow: an arrogant prick murdered by his own men.

[johnnysd]

I think that the opinions here are quite a bit different from a normal reader of the series. It seems so obvious to all of us who've obsessed over the books and pulled apart every last detail, and overturned every little nugget of information squirreled away in the books.

There's nothing obvious about Jon Snow or his lineage in a normal read of the books, just small hints that wouldn't even be picked up by a normal read.

So I'm going to disagree with your premise, and say that there would be nothing whatsoever cliche about Jon Snow eventually either taking the throne, or sacrificing himself as a martyr.

I actually disagree with that. There are many theories I never picked up on at all, and some that are painfully obscure like Aegon being a Blackfire or whatever, but I figured out R+L=J on first read withput ever evening knowing there was a fan site. My friend who just read it, picked up on it, and even over at televisionwithoutpity they have fugured it out from the TV show. It is not really super hidden

[Winterfellian]

I agree that Jon is a heroic archetype character has been subverted from the beginning, I thought that implicit in my statement about the 5 books deconstructing conventions. But we have the beginning and middle of his story arc in those 5 books, and we'll get his ending when TWOW and ADOS are published, and since there is so much speculation here about what will happen, I focused on that. But because this subversion is such a large part of the books, I find it ironic that so many people seem to want such a trite ending as Jon saves the world, becomes king and everyone lives happily ever after or whatever. That type of ending would undo the pre-existing deconstruction and just turn him into a cliche. I don't think that GRRM would do that. I think his ending will be as subverted as the rest of his story is. And happily it seems that most of the people who replied to this topic don't want to see that type of cliched ending for the character.

I have been to my share of Jon threads since he's my favorite and from what I've seen is only a small portion of his fandom that seems to want the cliche happy ending you seem to be referring to.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear last time. Part of my point was that if Jon finds himself in a position of Kingship at the end I thrust GRRM to set the events leading to this in a way that compliments the previous subversion of his arch. That's to say, if he is indeed crowned king I don't expect it to be as a result of the traditional fantasy thrope- lost prince discovers his father was King and is acclaimed as King himself. If it does happens I thrust it will be in a way that doesn't disrupt his previous arch and that doesn't stand as a sore point within the context of ASOIAF.

Personally, I don't think that if he survives he will be a King in the end. I think his story will mirror more that of Aemon (the Gods made him fit to serve not to rule).

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

I don't care if he ends up king in the north or king of the 7 or a dragon rider or anything except alive. Shit I'm just exhausted from all my favs being stamped out.

[profilebegone]

Jon's story is very easy to subvert.

Jon is the PtWP, Azor Ahai, R+L=J, KitN, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch that rides a dragon and slays the Others...only for Varys to convince everyone his mummer dragon is the real deal and comes first in succession.

I still think it would be awesome for Aegon's legitimacy to be unresolved and for him to die like a quarter of the way into TWoW as the grey plague sweeps over the Stormlands. Now that's subversion.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I don't know why Jon eventually becoming King has to be a "happy" ending at all. The two are not mutually exclusive. If all of Westeros is in shambles, the majority of the nobility in shambles, the Wall destroyed, Dany dead, Arya dead (possibly by Jon's own hand), etc... that's not a "cliched happy ending" in any way shape or form.

[Teal'c]

I think it was AppleMartini who made a great point that for Jon, the trope subversion will come into play where, when learning about his secret lineage, he rejects it and prefers his bastard status and identity as a son of Eddard Stark. The normal stereotype would be for the hero to embrace his secret identity and really enjoy it.

Actually, this would be considered "refusing the call," also part of the archetype.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I think it was AppleMartini who made a great point that for Jon, the trope subversion will come into play where, when learning about his secret lineage, he rejects it and prefers his bastard status and identity as a son of Eddard Stark. The normal stereotype would be for the hero to embrace his secret identity and really enjoy it.

As for your other comments, no one knows for sure how the series will end, and opinions vary greatly. It's pretty clear from a literary perspective that Jon Snow is the Song of Ice and Fire, but what the means in terms of his interactions with Daenerys, his fight against the Others, and the eventual state of the government of Westeros, is almost impossible to guess. At this point, all I can say, is that I have faith in Martin and even if the series ends with Jon and Dany as king and queen, Martin will write in such a way as to be emotive, intelligent, and definitely not cliche.

EDIT: Spelling was horrible

Im down with that actually. Jon's my fave so as long as he does something badass, im happy. Even if he doesnt go "imma gonna be king" (which he totes wont) hes gonna do something and is in the position to learn a great deal. Even if he comes back a lot more bitter than before and gives no fucks.

What I don't understand is why so many people think that Jon has to be the one in the Iron Throne if L + R = J.

To me, the Prince that was Promised does not mean he's going to be the one to sit the Iron Throne. He's destined to save the realm from darkness and Jon Snow is in EXACTLY THE RIGHT PLACE for it. Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is the one leading the first line of defense against the others.

Also, I think this would make it more tragic if he died - he's well on his way to fulfilling his destiny only to have a couple blockheads who have no inkling of what they've done run him through.

I still think that Jon will put his Saving The World Boots on. Its the manner of doing so that will be more interesting. I do think he and Dany will meet, but it will not be a friendly meeting. At. All.

Actually, this would be considered "refusing the call," also part of the archetype.

Theres very few fantasy characters written that actually do this. The Call always finds them eventually. I think Jon isnt gonna answer The Call the same way. I think he will smash the phone. Dany is all about chatting up with The Call. Thats like, her thing. Jon seems to be in opposition with her way of doing things. While they end up in similar situations, they go about it a little differently. Dany will answer The Call coming from Westeros and charge in going all "Yeah whats up!" and The Call will hang up loudly but not before going "Oi! Wtf, i got the wrong number!" Jon gets The Call only to be like "Screw you!" *slam* *smashes phone* "Im doing MY WAY, bitches."

[IamMe90]

Yes, I totally agree that Jon Snow is not AA reborn or the PtwP, but it's more than that - there IS no AA reborn or PtwP. The two are related because they both serve as trope subversions.

I'm very surprised by the amount of posts I've seen lurking the forums about speculation as to whom AA reborn will be. IMO, the whole prophecy is a big red herring.

We get a lot of text linking several different characters to characteristics of the AA reborn prophecy. With Jon Snow, we have his dream of him wielding a flaming sword, his lineage, and a few less reliable textual clues. With Dany, we have the hatching of dragon eggs and the smoke of the pyre. We can even stretch some of the text to point toward Bran.

All of these clues create a lot of speculation as to who will fulfill the prophecy, but that will make it that much better when no one person fulfills the prophecy.

In a less direct sense, there is no one prince that was promised - instead, ALL of the important characters are "the prince" through their collective action and the unique parts they'll inevitably play in the fate of westeros.

Plus, it's just not in GRRM's style to have a prophecy of one person saving the entire fate of the universe, and actually HAVING one character fulfill that prophecy and going on to save the universe. It's such a lame, predictable idea. It's not just about subverting the archetypal hero (although that is undoubtedly part of it), it's also about subverting the idea of prophecy.