[Book spoilers]: GoT producers expect 8 seasons

[protar]

Am I the only one who read the ADWD epilogue? Everyone is very suspicious of Ungregor.

@DarkandFullofTurnips

I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can't consider there to be precedent and foreshadowing for Ungregor. In Game of Thrones we have Bran's prophecy of the stone giant without a head. In A Clash of Kings Qyburn is introduced and rumoured to practise necromancy. in AFFC we have Cersei ordering construction of a huge suit of plate. If you didn't like the foreshadowing that's not Martin's fault, but clearly Ungregor was thought of and foreshadowed right at the start of the series, so to say it came out of nowhere is just plain wrong.

[boojam]

Ygritte isn't going to die.

She's signed on for three more seasons, and Kit Harrington is dating Rose Leslie in real life as well. Ygritte is going to remain alive and Val is going to be merged into Ygritte, hence furthering this show and it's tr00 love cliches.

Three more seasons... it there a source for that?

Also, to the person on page 1 who was like THERE WAS NO DANCE WITH DRAGONS IN BOOK 5 - you do realize "A Dance with Dragons" isn't referring to war, but rather the dragons themselves? About Dany and Aegon dancing about juggling the plot, and about how countless suitors and advisers dance around them as well. I swear, that's pretty simple. Probably the hardest title to explain of the seven, but it still makes sense,

That has come up before , when ADwD was published, and I agree with it. There are also 'partial' dragons too , other characters with a drop or several drops of Valyrian blood.

So the interpretation you give is not a rationalization.

It's not like the dragons don't do anything in ADwD , but , and it's just my conjecture, I think George meant to do something more with them but couldn't figure out how to.

[boojam]

Robert Strong is kind of Scooby Doo villain-ish, now that I think about it. I mean, what he is isn't a laughing matter (it's pretty terrifying, actually), or outside the realm of the world Martin has created (given it's not the first time someone has been resurrected, though I don't like the idea that he doesn't have a head, for some reason), but it's like every other character has to become a complete moron in order for it to make sense why no one has question who - or what - Robert Strong actually is. Maybe this is referenced in the book, and I'm not just remembering it. I'm planning on re-reading the last two books in the series (though I'm still undecided if I'm going to read them as published, or try a combined reading list), as my memory has grown pretty hazy on some of the finer details contained in them.

A Scooby Doo villain... har I like that.

Robert Strong is sort of like a southern Coldhnads!

ASoIaF is an odd story , George does have a good backbone of plot , the battle for the Iron Throne makes a good story while keeping the East and Dany on the back burner , even if she seems to figure in some kind of importand plot development later. And the Others and Winter seem, from what George has put in place, to be the Goetterdaemmerung plot peak, where all arcs come together, if he does this in WoW , then I don't know what the hell A Dream of Spring is about! Unless he carries this Others plot forward to that book.

With so many rambling prose pages, and that's not a value judgment, George IS a good story teller, I am afraid GRRM's 'green thumb' for Gardner-Writing has a tendency to create Whirligig narrative elements that seem down right silly, besides Robert Strong (what a name, like George is thumbing his nose at us) , another example is the goof ball Arstan - Belwas , not-a-knight-with-a-squire thing that may have been funny to GRRM but made no sense to me, glad Dave and Dan saw it that way too.

Not that I would not mind having Belwas (brought onto the scene in a different way) back as a comic character, which would not hurt.

Mostly it seems George's plot is serious, with some truly funny moments (that fit) , sometimes he seems devil-may-care and shards of loony loops get spun out.

[Lannister Hamster]

Looks like we'll all be unsullied in a few years

[Mr Fixit]

In retrospect, AGoT's prologue does seem a bit... early. It makes perfect sense in the originally planned trilogy (AGoT-ADwD-ATfW) where all the supernatural stuff is front and centre pretty early. Now, book 5 is over and Others are still pretty much where they were 4 books ago.

[Weeping Sore]

So..I was right then? It's the prejudiced idea that fantasy elements prevent a work from being serious. Which of course is wrong.

Ungregor has plenty of precedent. Resurrection and the Undead have been a part of this series since Game of Thrones, chapter 1 and much was made of Qyburn practicing necromancy. And maybe you need to reread the epilogue of ADWD? Kevan and others rightly wonder who Robert Strong is and seem to be close to hitting the mark. As TWOW isn't out yet, you have know idea whether there'll be any fallout of from these speculations so it's too premature to criticise Martin for that.

I think the reason people are finding Ser Robert Strong uninteresting is that it makes a trial by combat too predictable- that is, an invincible undead warrior makes the outcome a foregone conclusion. Also, SRS's size makes his true nature a disquieting (and comical) "elephant in the room"

How about this scenario: (forgive the length):

The High Sparrow (drawing the exact conclusions about SRS's identity that we have as readers) is in no hurry to lose a Trial by Combat against Cersei. So he takes his time in finding a champion for the Faith, one that has an outside chance at defeating SRS, but a better chance at exposing the champion as an abomination against all the gods.

He has heard of the gravedigger on the Silent Isle from pilgrims who have stopped through there on their way to King's Landing. He has a good idea who this is, and thinks that if the Hound were to face his (former) brother, the conclusion of the abomination's identity would be inescapable.

By raven, he has a squad of Sword and Stars (the Faith Militant) mobilized in the Riverlands for two purposes- to destroy the abomination known as Lady Stoneheart and kill or convert her BwB, and retrieve the gravedigger to KL to serve as the Faith's champion.

When the Faith Militant return to the capitol, they report that LS has been destroyed and they have captured Jaime Lannister, who is of course implicated in Cersei's crimes and should be held until its outcome. He meets the Hound, who for some reason will not remove his Hound helm and has taken a vow of silence like his brother.

The Trial ensues. Very soon it is clear that Ser Robert Strong cannot be defeated. The giant delivers a devastating blow and the Hound cries out with a woman's voice. Jaime, watching with his sister, realizes that it's Brienne wearing the Hound's helm. He shouts for the High Septon to stop the trial- he will confess everything.

So Cersei is condemned to death by the hand of the valonquar. Perhaps Jaime gets away with taking the Black...

This is all inspired by Bran's Prophecy:

One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

On a previous thread, people had been debating whether the golden shadow was Jaime or Oberyn, when someone suggested that maybe the figure that's obviously the Hound could be someone else because Sandor no longer had his helm (the BwB has it since Brienne killed Rorge) Brienne has been compared to the Hound "Sandor Clegane with teats" several times, and is of similar size. Clearly the third figure is Ser Robert Strong. What the High Sparrow will do when King Tommen is proved to be a Lannister bastard could be even more interesting...

But anyway, I don't think SRS will be cut.

[Caelestis]

In retrospect, AGoT's prologue does seem a bit... early. It makes perfect sense in the originally planned trilogy (AGoT-ADwD-ATfW) where all the supernatural stuff is front and centre pretty early. Now, book 5 is over and Others are still pretty much where they were 4 books ago.

I understand your point and, had the story moved along a bit quicker than it ended up doing, I agree that the revelation of the Others at the start would've suited the series a bit better.

Nonetheless, I think it's inaccurate to say that the threat of the Others hasn't changed at all. On the contrary: the entire southern migration of the Wildlings and their attack on the Wall was all caused by the massive threat that the Others represent; on its last (and possibly final) major expedition beyond the Wall, the Night's Watch was annhilitiated by an army of Wights and picked apart by Others as they retreated. And msot crucially of all, there are some serious hints that massive shit is going down beyond the Wall in ADWD: there are suggestions that the remains of Mance's army under Tormund was harried by the Others after they were smashed by Stannis and I highly doubt Cotter Pyke would've bothered mentioning 'dead things in the water' in his desperate letter to Jon if they were really just dead bodies. ;)

Slowly, but surely, the supernatural stuff is moving more to the forefront in the series and the Others are no exception. Things have changed and it won't surprise me if the full scope of the Others is revealed early in TWoW.

[Mr Fixit]

I understand your point and, had the story moved along a bit quicker than it ended up doing, I agree that the revelation of the Others at the start would've suited the series a bit better.

Nonetheless, I think it's inaccurate to say that the threat of the Others hasn't changed at all. On the contrary: the entire southern migration of the Wildlings and their attack on the Wall was all caused by the massive threat that the Others represent; on its last (and possibly final) major expedition beyond the Wall, the Night's Watch was annhilitiated by an army of Wights and picked apart by Others as they retreated. And msot crucially of all, there are some serious hints that massive shit is going down beyond the Wall in ADWD: there are suggestions that the remains of Mance's army under Tormund was harried by the Others after they were smashed by Stannis and I highly doubt Cotter Pyke would've bothered mentioning 'dead things in the water' in his desperate letter to Jon if they were really just dead bodies. ;)

Slowly, but surely, the supernatural stuff is moving more to the forefront in the series and the Others are no exception. Things have changed and it won't surprise me if the full scope of the Others is revealed early in TWoW.

Oh, I agree. Personally I don't mind the prologue one bit. However, from the... I don't know, elegance or pacing or whatever you'd call it standpoint, it is disconnected from the rest.

[Caelestis]

Oh, I agree. Personally I don't mind the prologue one bit. However, from the... I don't know, elegance or pacing or whatever you'd call it standpoint, it is disconnected from the rest.

You're probably right on that end. Still, at least it introduced the Others with a bang. :)

[King Tommen]

The innate issue with the entire series is that you've got two supernatural forces (the Others and Dany with her dragons) whose eventual conflict you established very early on are going to be the true endgame of the series. And to emphasize this, you even have multiple characters acknowledge that all of the other conflicts you have going on aren't really important in the grand scheme of things.

This works in a trilogy where you can see where that endpoint lies. But after the decision was made to stretch this out to 7 books (hopefully no more), by playing your hand so early, you need to put your endgame elements in holding patterns while you tell the other stories you want to tell. But because you've established right from the very first book that this other stuff isn't really nearly as important, it makes the audience impatient to see you get to your endgame. The most frustrating parts of the more recent books all have to do with there being very little progress on the Dany and Others plots. I don't know how you fix this though because as soon as serious shit starts happening on either front, you've initiated the endgame of the series.

[YouSnowNothing]

This is all inspired by Bran's Prophecy:

One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

This is an interesting theory, and I could see it happening. But not from the prophecy. You missed out the important part - that these three "shadows" are surrounding visions of Arya and Sansa. Which makes me think that these three characters - presumably Jaime, Sandor and Robert Strong - are going to be involved with whatever the Stark girls get up to, probably in the Vale and Riverlands.

[Joyful Union]

I kind of don't want The Hound to come back. He's one of the few characters who looks like he could have a happy ending, and I find the thought of him living out his days on the Quiet Isle satisfying. That said, an UnGregor/Hound battle would be pretty badass...

[Weeping Sore]

I kind of don't want The Hound to come back. He's one of the few characters who looks like he could have a happy ending, and I find the thought of him living out his days on the Quiet Isle satisfying. That said, an UnGregor/Hound battle would be pretty badass...

The problem with an UnGregor/Hound battle is the Hound would lose. Anyone would lose to Ser Robert Strong, that's why Jaime's confessing to incest/treason is the only way Cersei loses a trial by combat. And Jaime certainly wouldn't do that on the Hound's behalf.

[Joyful Union]

The problem with an UnGregor/Hound battle is the Hound would lose. Anyone would lose to Ser Robert Strong, that's why Jaime's confessing to incest/treason is the only way Cersei loses a trial by combat. And Jaime certainly wouldn't do that on the Hound's behalf.

Hmm, your right. It would be ridiculous to have the Hound have a huge comeback, only to be immediately killed. More likely it's going to be Lancel, or a trial by Seven with the Kingsguard.

[Weeping Sore]

Hmm, your right. It would be ridiculous to have the Hound have a huge comeback, only to be immediately killed. More likely it's going to be Lancel, or a trial by Seven with the Kingsguard.

If it's Lancel, you might as well have the trial off-page and cut to Lancel being dead. A Trial by Seven would be cool. But I think it will be Brienne, with Jaime coming to her rescue with his confession.

[Colonel Green]

But I think it will be Brienne

Um, how would that happen?

Jaime confessing wouldn't change anything pertaining to the trial itself, anyway. Cersei would still be able to dispute the truth of the allegations.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

First of all the Rose Leslie dating Kit Harrington thing is false. I think the paparazzi caught them having dinner together once and blew it way out of proportion. 2ndly even if they were I don't think the show would make a major decision like that based on whether someone is dating another.

The only way I can see them not killing of Ygritte, is if they get rid of Mance Rayder, give most of Mance's role to Tormund, and make Ygritte Tormund's daughter like some have suggested. But even that is highly unlikely.

[Khal Porno]

I'm planning on re-reading the last two books in the series (though I'm still undecided if I'm going to read them as published, or try a combined reading list), as my memory has grown pretty hazy on some of the finer details contained in them.

I recommend this:

http://ballofbeasts.weebly.com/

Some people made an ebook combining A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons more or less chronologically, and they did a great job. Dumb re-title aside, I think it's actually a much better read than reading them separately.

[Khal Porno]

First of all the Rose Leslie dating Kit Harrington thing is false. I think the paparazzi caught them having dinner together once and blew it way out of proportion. 2ndly even if they were I don't think the show would make a major decision like that based on whether someone is dating another.

The only way I can see them not killing of Ygritte, is if they get rid of Mance Rayder, give most of Mance's role to Tormund, and make Ygritte Tormund's daughter like some have suggested. But even that is highly unlikely.

Merging Ygritte and Val actually makes a lot of sense and could result in some pretty good dramatic tension, IF they make Ygritte Dallah's sister.

However, I don't think they will do this, since Ygritte is too wild to take the place of the stoic Val. But it could be done.

[protar]

Merging Ygritte and Val actually makes a lot of sense and could result in some pretty good dramatic tension, IF they make Ygritte Dallah's sister.

However, I don't think they will do this, since Ygritte is too wild to take the place of the stoic Val. But it could be done.

Replacing Ygritte with Val makes precisely...0% sense. How exactly does Jon become LC, or for that matter return to CB without being executed if he's got a wildling GF on his arm? Not to mention the impact that Ygritte's death has on Jon's character arc.