Warrior vs. Smith

[Mladen]

But isn't killing because of the laws the domain of the Father?

See, that's what I meant. We have a seven-faceted religion, but for some reason we seem to focus on a dichotomy when we should look at a heptochomy, so to speak.

I think here we can use dichotomy to explain Seven-faceted religion. Ok, we have divided actions on whether they are constructive or deconstructive forces, and each of the Seven facets brings something, so to speak, Father can be both constructive and deconstructive, Mother too, and so on and on. Thing about this Warrior vs Smith is that it ask very deep psychological question of human nature? This isn't just about several parallels between characters and deities, this is more like an analysis of how two sides of human being are constantly in war. This is Seven's version of Ice and Fire, War and Peace...

[Rishav Banka]

I think the dualism philosophy in ASOIAF has more to do with Ice and fire than Warrior and smith(Although the latter may just be a different way of looking at it.

Targaryen']

The fire consumes whereas the ice preserves....

[coil]

I'd like to provide some insight on the clash between the Warrior and the Smith in ASOIAF. The warrior aspect has always been more revered, especially by the nobility, even though the Warrior only has the power to destroy in contrast to the power of the Smith who builds. This can be seen when comparing the two Daerons. Daeron I, is more revered than Daeron II, even though the Young Dragon's attempt to annex Dorne failed and resulted in the deaths of 50,000 men while Daeron II managed to successfully annex Dorne without spilling a drop of blood.

First Blackfyre Rebellion

“The hammer and the anvil?” The old man’s mustache gave a twitch. “The singers leave out much and

more. Daemon was the Warrior himself that day.

Daemon is said by GRRM to have looked every inch the warrior. Maekar and Baelor are referred to as "the hammer and the anvil," a reference to the smith. Daemon embodied the Warrior while Daeron II embodied the Smith, Daeron constructed negotiation with the Prince of Dorne that resulted in bringing Dorne under the dominion of the IT while Daemon started a war to crown himself king. The triumph of the Smith over the Warrior is an active motif in the series with Blackfyre supporters having been Warrior's men while the Targaryens under Daeron were the Smith's men.

Starks

The aspect of the Warrior is akin to fire in that fire consumes until there is nothing left and the fire dies. In the aspects of the Seven the Stark family represents, Robb is the Warrior. Robb dies and loses his kingdom, and WF will pass to Rickon, who likely embodies the Smith given through deduction of the other roles of the Seven of the Starks.

Tyrion

In Meereen there are three ardent suitors for Dany; Victarion, Daario and Jorah, all of whom are warriors. Daario is a sellsword while Victarion is an Ironborn reaver and Jorah was and is now a sellsword; their occupations regarding their abilities are used to make war and woe.

Next was a bull set against a bear in a bloody battle that left both animals torn and dying.

I think we will see Jorah, the bear, fight Victarion, who is described as a bull. He may die at the hands of Victarion.Daario is not long for this world either.

"Only their shadows," Moqorro said. "One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood."

"You ought to see it [Dothraki Sea] when it blooms, all dark red flowers from horizon to horizon, like a sea of blood."

Dany's description of Drogon: I am looking into hell

Victarion: "I could sail the Iron Fleet to hell if need be."

"There are tales of dragons who grew so huge that they could pluck giant krakens from the seas."

Victarion will go into the Dothraki Sea on an expedition to find Dany. After Dany learns that he killed Barristan along with Hizdahr and possibly Jorah, she will have Drogon kill Victarion or Drogon will kill him after he tries to take Dany by force when she refuses him.

All the warriors, including Barristan, will die leaving only Tyrion. Tyrion will likely by administering in Meereen, and unlike the others, choose not to fight Victarion. Tyrion is a dwarf, and dwarves are portrayed in mythology and LoTR as skilled smiths and craftsmen. As Hand, Tyrion constructed the alliances between Highgarden and Sunspear, and worked to alleviate the suffering of KL, and having the boom chain built.

Finally, I think Gendry will be legitimized and made Lord of SE. He is a smith unlike his father, he uses his hammer to build rather than destroy.

In the end, when winter comes it will be the smiths who triumph as the warriors die from fighting instead of preparing for winter.

Interesting post, probably it's going to find some hidden gems.

Posting to retrace the thread when I'll come back home later, up until then some random considerations.

1 I do not generally agree with the OP when speculating about the Starks (Rickon seems more out of the picture, and Robb isn't the only Warrior)

2 Robert Baratheon used a hammer, who knows if it means something. After all, despite many flaws his was a reign of peace.

3 Gendry, Donal Noye, the smith at Harrenhal, Tobho Mott, Mikken, the smith who reforged Oathkeeper and Widow's wail... any other smiths around?

Maybe we can trace a comparison.

4 Warriors are valuable but expendable, smiths are precious. No matter who wins Harrenhal, he keeps the smith. Does it mean anything, except for the obvious practical reasons?

5 smiths' right arm is bigger than the left one

6 Robb's crown was made by a smith

I think you are spot on something, can't still see a pattern at the current moment...

[Fire Eater]

I think the dualism philosophy in ASOIAF has more to do with Ice and fire than Warrior and smith(Although the latter may just be a different way of looking at it.

I never said the dualism was solely about the warrior vs smith. They are like ice and fire, opposites.

Interesting post, probably it's going to find some hidden gems.
Posting to retrace the thread when I'll come back home later, up until then some random considerations.
1 I do not generally agree with the OP when speculating about the Starks (Rickon seems more out of the picture, and Robb isn't the only Warrior)
2 Robert Baratheon used a hammer, who knows if it means something. After all, despite many flaws his was a reign of peace.
3 Gendry, Donal Noye, the smith at Harrenhal, Tobho Mott, Mikken, the smith who reforged Oathkeeper and Widow's wail... any other smiths around?
Maybe we can trace a comparison.
4 Warriors are valuable but expendable, smiths are precious. No matter who wins Harrenhal, he keeps the smith. Does it mean anything, except for the obvious practical reasons?
5 smiths' right arm is bigger than the left one
6 Robb's crown was made by a smith

I think you are spot on something, can't still see a pattern at the current moment...

1. Rickon is being retrieved by Davos and Bran can't rule since he is going to be a tree.
2. Robert did use a hammer, but as Noye said he is like a sword, he's built for war but goes away to rust in times of peace. Robert did little ruling as he left it to Stannis and Jon Arryn. Jon Arryn was the one who negotiated with Dorne and arranged the Lannister marriage.

[Lykos]

Fire Eater, this is one of my vavorite topics.

I posted this in the Tyrion reread.

I really like the find of the Inn "The Broken Anvil" and agree with Blisscraft´s interpretation, but would like to put it a bit broader as the anvil represents the fixed, unmoving part in the process of creation it can be seen as tradition, while the hammer represents change and in order to successfully create the smith needs to apply the force of change in a well dosed blanced way in order not to break the anvil.

I very much like that Ragnorak mentioned Septon Meribald and the Smith, but that would probably take us too far from discussing Tyrion. Here are some posts I made concerning this in the Less examined bits of the AA prophecy -threads one and two.

There is however a more direct meaning to "The Broken Anvil" that the reader can´t know at this point, but Tyrion should know as Singers sing about it in Westeros for decades, as we learn in the "Sworn Sword".

...

So Daemon would have broken the anvil, had he not been so chivalrous and every Blackfyre supporter would wish for the broken anvil.

This shows, that whoever named the Inn most likely was a Blackfyre supporter and the innkeeper is one of Tyrion´s prime suspects for informing Varys.

Fire Eater, as always, nice analysis, and wonderful foreshadowings. I have seen this thread couple of days ago, but I wanted to think more deeply about the Warror vs Smith in ASOIAF. And I have gathered some things you might like:

<snip>

5. Parenting as Warrior and Smith

Father and mother. As we have seen, in Westeros, most commonly, fathers are great lords, commanders or warriors. Fron Ned who participated in RR and Greyjoy Rebellion, to Robert, Randyll, Oberyn etc, fathers are associated with warrior aspect. Mothers on the other hand, has more of a Smith in their hearts. Catelyn wants to preserve her son's reign without more blood, QOT protects her family with her plotting, Ellaria Sand clearly states she wants to end vicious circle of vengeance. So, Mother and Father are in equilibrium, and when that is disbalanced, hell breaks loose. Look at Lannisters, and especially Joffrey. His father (both of them actually) is Warrior, but his mother is anything but Smith. Cersei as destructive force combined with Robert's warrior philosophy created a true sociopath like Joffrey. But in that equlibrium both parents have to have both Warrior and Smith side for things to work.

This is just some of thoughts I have gathered about this theme. But, more importantly, this battle has surpassed one character or one House and it became philosophy of ASOIAF. What is build is bound to be destroyed, and what is destroyed can be rebuilt again. The idea of grand battle between warrior aspect and smith aspect of ASOIAF comes from very deep, human nature - to build something or to destroy it.

Yes, I think this topic deserves deeper investigation. I like this take on parenting, since I have trouble defining the Father´s qualities. In the Howl at the Moon thread we found hints that make me believe that the female aspects of the Seven represent qualities of the natural circle of life.

• The Maid - the waxing moon - young life (innocence) and fertilty (promise of growth). I think squires fall into the same category. :P Egg - Pod.
  
• The Mother - the full moon - maturity and nourishment. Provider of basic needs.
  
• The Crone - the waning moon - experience and knowledge. Maybe presentiment of the Otherworld.
  
• The Stranger - the new moon - the unknown (Otherworld) were the Crone goes, but also were the Maid comes from. What lies between death and birth.
  

The male aspects are both simpler and more complicated.

• The Warrior - should be a protector as "Ser Galadon of Morne", but the protector of one is most of the time the raider of others.
  
• The Smith - represents all crafts. (Maybe also invention and creative spirit)
  

Septon Meribald says in Feast.

I have never known a boy who did not love the Warrior. I am old, though, and being old, I love the Smith. Without his labour, what would the Warrior defend? Every town has a smith, and every castle. They make the plows we need to plant our crops, the nails we use to build our ships, iron shoes to save the hooves of our faithful horses, the bright swords of our lords. No one could doubt the value of a smith, and so we name one of the Seven in his honor, but we might have easily called him the Farmer or the Fisherman, the Carpenter or the Cobbler. What he works at is no matter. What matters is he works. The Father rules, the Warrior fights, the Smith labours, and together they perform all that is rightful for a man. Just as the Smith is one aspect of the godhead, the Cobbler is one aspect of the Smith.

• The Father - he rules, obviously. But what does that mean? Doesn´t a good leader have qualities and knowledge of all the other aspects?
  

Interestingly Athena "is the goddess of wisdom, courage, inspiration, civilization, law and justice, just warfare, mathematics, strength, strategy, the arts, crafts, and skill." Wikipedia. She represents all the qualities of the male aspects of the Seven while Artemis is a good representative of the female aspects.

[Fire Eater]

No one could doubt the value of a smith, and so we name one of the Seven in his honor, but we might as easily have called him the Farmer or the Fisherman, the Carpenter or the Cobbler.

The Volmarks and Stonetrees had large holdings on the isle and boasted famous captains and fierce warriors of their own, but even the fiercest had bent beneath the scythe.

There is also the Reader to consider as well whose sigil is the scythe, a farmer's tool; the farmer being one of the aspects of the Smith according to Meribald. Harlaw is the most populous of the Iron Isles, indicating it has more fertile soil and is more industrious than any of the other Iron Isles. Unlike the rest of the Ironborn, Rodrik Harlaw does not hunger for battle or the Old Way. He wants peace, and prefers more land for the Ironborn to work than a return to the Old Way.

After House Greyjoy goes extinct, I think the Reader will be Lord of the Iron Isles as he is lord over the richest and most populous of the Iron Isles, and will stay out of the infighting when the remnants of the Ironborn fight each other for supremacy after House Greyjoy goes extinct, reserving his strength.

The Reader is a smith among warriors.

[J. Stargaryen]

Azor Ahai was a smith

Agreed. This is something I noticed when I was looking up the Lightbringer origin story. From ASoS, Davos I:

Do you [Davos] know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I [salladhor Saan] shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero’s blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done.

Fire Eater, this is one of my vavorite topics.

I posted this in the Tyrion reread.

Yes, I think this topic deserves deeper investigation. I like this take on parenting, since I have trouble defining the Father´s qualities. In the Howl at the Moon thread we found hints that make me believe that the female aspects of the Seven represent qualities of the natural circle of life.

• The Maid - the waxing moon - young life (innocence) and fertilty (promise of growth). I think squires fall into the same category. :P Egg - Pod.
  
• The Mother - the full moon - maturity and nourishment. Provider of basic needs.
  
• The Crone - the waning moon - experience and knowledge. Maybe presentiment of the Otherworld.
  
• The Stranger - the new moon - the unknown (Otherworld) were the Crone goes, but also were the Maid comes from. What lies between death and birth.
  

The male aspects are both simpler and more complicated.

• The Warrior - should be a protector as "Ser Galadon of Morne", but the protector of one is most of the time the raider of others.
  
• The Smith - represents all crafts. (Maybe also invention and creative spirit)
  

Septon Meribald says in Feast.

• The Father - he rules, obviously. But what does that mean? Doesn´t a good leader have qualities and knowledge of all the other aspects?
  

Interestingly Athena "is the goddess of wisdom, courage, inspiration, civilization, law and justice, just warfare, mathematics, strength, strategy, the arts, crafts, and skill." Wikipedia. She represents all the qualities of the male aspects of the Seven while Artemis is a good representative of the female aspects.

I agree with the bolded part. It's something I've noticed upon researching the religions of the story.

[Stillhasclaws]

But isn't killing because of the laws the domain of the Father?

See, that's what I meant. We have a seven-faceted religion, but for some reason we seem to focus on a dichotomy when we should look at a heptochomy, so to speak.

This just reminded me of Cats scene in the sept right before Renlys death. She talks about how each one of the seven can embody elements of the other 6, eg the mother can be as fierce as the warrior, the crone can be beautiful etc. Perhaps in the same way as no one in the books is purely good or evil, every character has all seven elements within them. Some traits are stronger in some than others, but they are not mutually exclusive. So a warrior character can also be a smith.

For example - Cat would be most strongly associated with the mother. But she also has elements of the father (Ned planned to leave the rule of WF to her when he left for KL), warrior (fighting off Brans would be assassin), Smith (trying to broker peace between various factions), Maiden (in her younger more innocent days), Crone (advising Robb on strategy), and stranger (slitting Jingle bells throat)

[sansa's sworn sword]

This just reminded me of Cats scene in the sept right before Renlys death. She talks about how each one of the seven can embody elements of the other 6, eg the mother can be as fierce as the warrior, the crone can be beautiful etc. Perhaps in the same way as no one in the books is purely good or evil, every character has all seven elements within them. Some traits are stronger in some than others, but they are not mutually exclusive. So a warrior character can also be a smith.

For example - Cat would be most strongly associated with the mother. But she also has elements of the father (Ned planned to leave the rule of WF to her when he left for KL), warrior (fighting off Brans would be assassin), Smith (trying to broker peace between various factions), Maiden (in her younger more innocent days), Crone (advising Robb on strategy), and stranger (slitting Jingle bells throat)

you are a genius. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Mladen]

Adding to recurring theme of Warrior vs. Smith

Tyrion vs Stannis at Blackwater bay

Since I am dealing with Davos' POV chapter during Battle of Blackwater bay, this occured to me. Two guilds, smiths and pyromancers have won Stannis' army. The chain and wildfire trick destroyed lion's share of Stannis' army... Of course, that didn't beat Stannis, but it's testiment of how powerful the motif is in Tyrion's arc. This could be very well foreshadowing the events Fire Eater presented us in OP.

[coil]

So I was thinking about this thread when a question popped out: does Daenerys have anything to do with smiths, at all?

Without even checking, I suspect that we won't see that much...

The only smith we see in Essos chapters comes from Tyrion when he's prisoner, right?

If there was a character on that land who was 'suited for a smith' in his chapters (assuming but not conceding that there's a sort of rule around), beside Tyrion it should be Quentyn, but I don't recall one.

[Fire Eater]

So I was thinking about this thread when a question popped out: does Daenerys have anything to do with smiths, at all?

Without even checking, I suspect that we won't see that much...

The only smith we see in Essos chapters comes from Tyrion when he's prisoner, right?

If there was a character on that land who was 'suited for a smith' in his chapters (assuming but not conceding that there's a sort of rule around), beside Tyrion it should be Quentyn, but I don't recall one.

Dany doesn't have any aspect of the smith, especially since she took in "dragons plant no trees." Dany has proven that while she is good in the destructive aspects of the warrior, both intentionally and unintentionally, she is lacking the constructive aspects of the smith.

Another thing I would like to add about Jaehaerys the Old King, is that his Hand for forty years was Septon Barth, a blacksmith's son.

[coil]

Dany doesn't have any aspect of the smith, especially since she took in "dragons plant no trees." Dany has proven that while she is good in the destructive aspects of the warrior, both intentionally and unintentionally, while lacking the constructive aspects of the smith.

Another thing I would like to add about Jaehaerys the Old King, is that his Hand for forty years was Septon Barth, a blacksmith's son.

And that's another good reason why I think you are on a nice theory...

Let's speculate some more for the sake of speculating: Donal Noye is a smith who had the rare chance to "mentor", or at least watch some king in making (namely Jon, Robert Baratheon, Stannis and Renly).

I don't recall him describing Jon Snow (and Jon looks quite smith-like in his 'ruling' - I recall him wanting to build greenhouses for vegetables at the Wall and rebuilding towers left and right, for example, probably there are more), but he surely speaks about the three Baratheon brothers, comparing them to metals.

At first I thought he was somehow thinking of weapons (steel and iron are synonims for weapons even in english, I believe), but Renyl feels out of the picture so we can't really say Baratheons>weapons>Warrior(s).

Yet they are these kings are compared to metals, something a smith works on.

Just brainstorming here and there ^^

[Corvinus85]

Here are the verses from the Song of the Seven which Sam sings to Gilly (the verse that caught my eye, relevant to this discussion, is in bold)

The Warrior stands before the foe,

protecting us where e'er we go.

With sword and shield and spear and bow,

he guards the little children.

...

The Smith, he labors day and night,

to put the world of men to right.

With hammer, plow, and fire bright,

he builds for little children.

[The guy from the Vale]

Another thing I just noticed... Aegon the Conqueror forged the Iron Throne with dragonflame. Many readers probably only see him as a warrior, but he has quite a number of Smith references too.

[Fire Eater]

Another thing I just noticed... Aegon the Conqueror forged the Iron Throne with dragonflame. Many readers probably only see him as a warrior, but he has quite a number of Smith references too.

Like I said in a previous post, the Warrior manifests the nature of fire while the smith harnesses the destructive aspect of fire and turns it something constructive by using it to create items of use. Aegon used the flames of Balerion the Black Dread to both make war and forge the IT, for both constructive and destructive purposes. I think he was balance between the Warrior and the Smith, like Baelor Breakspear and Jon.

[Fire Eater]

Tywin has aspects of both the Warrior and Smith. He uses his destructive abilities in crushing the rebellion of the Reynes and Tarbecks, sacking KL and fighting in the Wo5K, but he also served successfully as Hand for twenty years and helped to consolidate the alliances between HG and CR.

But he failed in the aspect of the Father that ends up as his house's undoing. His failure as a father led to Tyrion killing him and working to bring his house down, and failing to see the true extent of Cersei and Jaime's relationship. The Father also dispenses justice, an aspectTywin also fails in as shown in rewarding the Freys for the RW. Without the aspect of the Father, Tywin's vision is inherently unworkable.

The right leader would need to balance all three aspects of Warrior, Smith and Father.

[Fire Eater]

After that came a savory snake stew, chunks of seven different sorts of snake slow-simmered in dragon peppers and blood oranges and a dash of venom to give it good bite.

All Dornishmen were snakes, and the Martells were the worst of them.

I think we will see seven members of the Martell family die in the series, with the snakes described as simmered in dragon peppers to hint at the reasons for their demise. Dany will directly or indirectly kill seven members of the Martell family. Quentyn is already dead. When a weak Doran hears about what happened Quentyn, it will kill him. Arianne will perish in the second Dance of Dragons.

The ones I want to point to are the Sand Snakes. Doran gave Obara the choice between the spear or tears, and Obara chose the spear. Tyene is skilled in poisons, and thinks of killing "those sweet young squires" in Balon's party without so much as a thought for guest right. Nymeria is the same in that she wants war. I think Elia is the same being:

she is called Lady Lance, and is skilled with a lance.

They bring to mind a few things from the New Testament: "He loves death, will see death" as well as "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword." The four Sand Snakes mentioned above will die in the DoD 2.0. Sarella will live given that she has forged a few links on her chain already, and spends her time learning. She is constructive compared to the destructive nature of the other Sand Snakes.

[Corvinus85]

After that came a savory snake stew, chunks of seven different sorts of snake slow-simmered in dragon peppers and blood oranges and a dash of venom to give it good bite.

All Dornishmen were snakes, and the Martells were the worst of them.

I think we will see seven members of the Martell family die in the series, with the snakes described as simmered in dragon peppers to hint at the reasons for their demise. Dany will directly or indirectly kill seven members of the Martell family. Quentyn is already dead. When a weak Doran hears about what happened Quentyn, it will kill him. Arianne will perish in the second Dance of Dragons.

The ones I want to point to are the Sand Snakes. Doran gave Obara the choice between the spear or tears, and Obara chose the spear. Tyene is skilled in poisons, and thinks of killing "those sweet young squires" in Balon's party without so much as a thought for guest right. Nymeria is the same in that she wants war. I think Elia is the same being:

she is called Lady Lance, and is skilled with a lance.

They bring to mind a few things from the New Testament: "He loves death, will see death" as well as "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword." The four Sand Snakes mentioned above will die in the DoD 2.0. Sarella will live given that she has forged a few links on her chain already, and spends her time learning. She is constructive compared to the destructive nature of the other Sand Snakes.

That may be, but according to the others, Sarella is playing a game. The Red Viper also forged six links, but in the end chose the Warrior's path, so Sarella might follow in those footsteps. I don't think Sarella is safe at all. She hangs out with a maester who dables in magic, there is a Faceless Man afoot, and Oldtown is being threatened by the ironborn. But this might happen. I hope that at least Ellaria's daughters survive.

Also the line says "all Dornishmen are snakes" so the seven sort of snakes that may be killed by dragons might include members of other houses. There are still the two Dornish knights (thus both warriors), Archibald Yronwood and Gerris Drinkwater, who are also in a precarious position.

[Fire Eater]

That may be, but according to the others, Sarella is playing a game. The Red Viper also forged six links, but in the end chose the Warrior's path, so Sarella might follow in those footsteps. I don't think Sarella is safe at all. She hangs out with a maester who dables in magic, there is a Faceless Man afoot, and Oldtown is being threatened by the ironborn. But this might happen. I hope that at least Ellaria's daughters survive.

1. Maester Marwyn left for Dany I recall, and is no longer with Sarella

2. Jaqen has no reason to kill Alleras as he already has Pate's face and the key, and while I think he might attempt to kill Sam after Sam finds him in the vaults, I think Sarella will help Sam out or vice versa

3. Oldtown won't fall to the Ironborn

My crackpot theory is that Sarella ends up with Willas Tyrell.