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Angalin

R+L=J v.54

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I had another thought as I pondered the question of how Ned would throw everyone off the scent of Lyanna having a child. If he suggested that he only found Lyanna's bones when he went looking for her, and that she had died much earlier, that would not leave enough time for her to deliver . . . Food for thought. ;)

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We know that Ned did a good job of hiding Jon's parentage, and he may well have told Robert something to discourage him from looking for and possibly killing a child of R+L.However, this doesn't necessarily prevent others investigating. Of course, since Robert's Rebellion there were plenty of other things for people to think about, but there must have been some curiosity about the truth of R+L's relationship.

I don't think this needs to be a problem for the R+L=J theory, I just find it odd that apparently no-one in the Seven Kingdoms was speculating about or looking for a R+L child. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Hello and Welcome to the forum!

Ya know I've always wondered what Jon Arryn thought about the whole Lyanna/Rhaegar/Ned/Jon Snow situation, but we obviously don't get his take on the matter and maybe that was another reason Ned avoided he or his family going to KL as much as possible. Regardless I still think there's at least one person in the realm other than Howland Reed that at the very least suspects R+L=J, and there will also be numerous characters like Cersei, Varys, Ser Barristian, Jon Connington, Tyrion, Jamie, and Dorne in general that will realize that R+L=J makes complete sense(if it's indeed revealed to them of course) and the clues were right in front of them the whole time but they just didn't take the time to see it. That comment Cersei made to Ned in GOT about how he, "hid his bastard up North in snow." Always creeps back into my mind, Cersei had no idea how right she was about that lol. Needless to say a lot of ppl in Westeros will be kicking themselves in the butt for not figuring it out themselves.

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How many people realized this from actually reading the books before finding it out from a forum like this? Cause I sure didn't, but as soon as I did everything clicked into place.

Well with me it got to a point where the whole R+L story seemed off. I thought the truth of what really happened was being hidden, versions of Rhaegar's personality were clashing and so I went searching for people's opinions on the subject and found out about R+L=J, which explains everything

In the beginning I thought Lyanna died from a wound Rhaegar left her or something, and the KG were there keeping her as a prisoner.

I thought Rhaegar was a mad, evil guy and the "official" version was the real deal.

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There are very scant clues regarding events following the Tourney at Harrenhal. We must assume that 9 to 12 months of winter followed the tourney. Ned and Lyanna were at Winterfell when Lyanna was betrothed to Robert. Lyanna had probably been presented to Robert as a candidate at Harrenhal, and been accepted. It was at Harrenhal that Lyanna had a chance to learn Robert's character. It was at Winterfell that Lyanna voiced her doubts to Ned with regard to Robert's proclivities.

Littlefinger challenged Brandon when he learned of Catelyn's betrothal, and Brandon responded immediately. The announcement must have been after winter had lifted, for Brandon to respond. Added into this is that Brandon was absent from Riverrun for more than a fortnight, but short enough a period to match his excuse to Catelyn of a short time for the errand. Brandon was on his way to the wedding when he was diverted to King's Landing.

I am not trying to imply that Lyanna could not have been taken at Harrenhal. I am saying that she wintered at Winterfell, which argues against her being warded at Harrenhal. She was most likely warded elsewhere, if at all. Ned recalls her at Winterfell, and never thinks of her being warded.

And for some reason, I always thought the conversation took place before the Tourney and that she went there already Roberts betrothed.

But, over-confident Robert, drinking, fighting etc, basically ignored Lyanna until Rhaegar crowned her, and then she became the greatest love of his life when he realized someone else might want her.

Thus the greatest tragedy of the Rebellion that a man supposedly fought for the hand of the woman he took for granted and didn't really know or love as Elder Brother alluded to.

I assume that Robert had perhaps seen Lyanna before the Tourney, or even knew her prior, but as I said, I'm not good with the timelines.

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I think it's your use of the term "failure" which makes you seem dismissive. It's possible to disagree without setting that tone right from the start... And it's not a failure if one offers reasoning to back up the speculation anyway, merely a difference of opinion. Further, there has been no suggestion that this is my actual, strongly held opinion- just a suggestion. Nor did I say this was the only option, Ygrain looked for alternatives to the locales she had mentioned, I ruled out a few others and based upon a perceived pattern suggested another.

Sorry.

OTOH, here is what you wrote, and what I responded to.

Looking at a map, the only place I can imagine besides what you mention is Dorne.

2 cities have been ruled out, you look at a map the size of south america, and rule out everything else but one province? I stand by the statement that that is a looking-at-map failure.

Sure, you've provided reasoning after the fact. I disagree with almost every aspect of that reasoning, thats fine, no worries.

There are very scant clues regarding events following the Tourney at Harrenhal. We must assume that 9 to 12 months of winter followed the tourney.

Why must we? Why not a short winter? It could even be very short - a false spring is not a spring at all, but a temporarily warm continuation of winter.

I don't understand at all how or why you arrive at this 'must' or even the period.

Ned and Lyanna were at Winterfell when Lyanna was betrothed to Robert.

I'm going to apologise here, because I feel like we've been here before but I can't remember it and can't find it. So sorry for asking you this again (probably).

We know this how?

Lyanna had probably been presented to Robert as a candidate at Harrenhal, and been accepted. It was at Harrenhal that Lyanna had a chance to learn Robert's character.

And why not previously, before? What stops young Robert visiting Winterfell with Ned, or Lyanna visiting the Aerie on her way south even.

It was at Winterfell that Lyanna voiced her doubts to Ned with regard to Robert's proclivities.

Same as above.

Littlefinger challenged Brandon when he learned of Catelyn's betrothal, and Brandon responded immediately. The announcement must have been after winter had lifted, for Brandon to respond.

Why? Brandon can respond in the depths of winter if they are both at Riverrun, which they seem to be. Not suggesting it was the depths of Winter, just asking why we have another 'must' with no apparent reasons?

South of the Neck, Winter is mostly just winter, not the fearsome thing it is in the north.

Added into this is that Brandon was absent from Riverrun for more than a fortnight, but short enough a period to match his excuse to Catelyn of a short time for the errand. Brandon was on his way to the wedding when he was diverted to King's Landing. I am not trying to imply that Lyanna could not have been taken at Harrenhal.

I am saying that she wintered at Winterfell, which argues against her being warded at Harrenhal. She was most likely warded elsewhere, if at all. Ned recalls her at Winterfell, and never thinks of her being warded.

I very much doubt it was 'warding' at all. At least not in a formal sense. Simply spending a year or so 'visiting' somewhere, or even somewheres, would do perfectly fine.

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How many people realized this from actually reading the books before finding it out from a forum like this? Cause I sure didn't, but as soon as I did everything clicked into place.

Interestingly enough, and this is probably blasphemy, but I suspected Jon Snow of being Targ+Stark from the first season of game of thrones. The title of the series made me think of Ice and Fire and I thought how cool it would be if the "song" was a tale about Jon and it's revealed that he is R+L. I read the series after the first season to confirm my suspicion and then discovered this board. I even mentioned it to a friend of mine before reading the series who had read the novels, and he had never heard or thought of the theory before. Maybe the show makes it too obvious? I think they spend more time on the entire Targ storyline than the novels.

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Interestingly enough, and this is probably blasphemy, but I suspected Jon Snow of being Targ+Stark from the first season of game of thrones. The title of the series made me think of Ice and Fire and I thought how cool it would be if the "song" was a tale about Jon and it's revealed that he is R+L. I read the series after the first season to confirm my suspicion and then discovered this board. I even mentioned it to a friend of mine before reading the series who had read the novels, and he had never heard or thought of the theory before. Maybe the show makes it too obvious? I think they spend more time on the entire Targ storyline than the novels.

"That's Lyanna, my father's sister. King Robert was supposed to marry her, but Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped her. Robert started a war to win her back, he killed Rhaegar, but she died anyway." ―Bran Stark at Lyanna's tomb

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I'm going to apologise here, because I feel like we've been here before but I can't remember it and can't find it. So sorry for asking you this again (probably).

We know this how?

From GOT:

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End.

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From GOT:

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End.

Thanks. I should probably apologise again, for the future, because for some reason this one refuses to stay in my head. :blushing:

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I had another thought as I pondered the question of how Ned would throw everyone off the scent of Lyanna having a child. If he suggested that he only found Lyanna's bones when he went looking for her, and that she had died much earlier, that would not leave enough time for her to deliver . . . Food for thought. ;)

He said to Robert that he was with Lyanna as she lay dying, so the version would work only if he told Robert privately that she died in childbirth together with the child and publically spread a lie about an earlier demise. However, I don't think that Robert would be able to keep any secret, with his heavy drinking, and sooner or later he would make a slip that would prompt womeone thinking.

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I think it's just possible Ned told Robert enough of the truth (ie she died of complications of childbirth but the child died too) to put him off the scent

That sounds likely, it would be enough to put Robert off the scent. I wonder how much (if any) of the truth Ned was ever going to tell Robert?

I bet I'm not the first person to suggest this but:

The time had come for Robert to hear the whole truth, he decided then and there.

AGOT, Ned II

Ned goes on to tell Robert the truth of how Tywin entered King's Landing, and how Ned found Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne. Robert does not seem particularly shocked or bothered to hear this. To me this chapter seems to be hinting that Ned had been planning to tell Robert at least some of the truth about Jon - not necessarily at that particular moment, but he was building up to the subject by talking about the end of the rebellion. Perhaps Ned felt that as Robert's Hand, he should no longer keep such a big secret from him. Robert's hatred of Targaryens is explained in this chapter, and by the end of the chapter Ned seems resigned to not telling Robert everything he was going to. As we see later, Ned is concerned about the consequences of Robert finding out about Cersei and Jaime, so it may have been the wisest thing not to tell Robert the whole truth of R+L=J.

Regardless I still think there's at least one person in the realm other than Howland Reed that at the very least suspects R+L=J, and there will also be numerous characters like Cersei, Varys, Ser Barristian, Jon Connington, Tyrion, Jamie, and Dorne in general that will realize that R+L=J makes complete sense(if it's indeed revealed to them of course) and the clues were right in front of them the whole time but they just didn't take the time to see it.

I was thinking that too, there are probably some people who have a vague idea or can see some of the clues.

Thanks for the welcomes.

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@corbon There is a gap in the timeline of at least nine months between Harrenhal and the taking of Lyanna, to allow for Aegon to be born. I don't see how anyone can object to a nine month winter between. Lyanna was offered to Robert at Harrenhal, after the first night, because Robert had more interest in is war of cups than he did for Lyanna. If he was already betrothed to her, and this is the first time he has seen her in a long time, ignoring her would be improbable, even for Robert. During the conversation, in Winterfell with Ned, it is the day the betrothal is announced, and Lyanna has met Robert, and knows of the bastard he fathered in the Vale, and his proclivities for dringking and whoring.

As far as winter being nothing, below the Neck, where is the Vale? It is below the Neck, but they abandon the Eyrie during winter. I am from the PacNW, and lived in LA for an extended period. In the mountains in both places, travel is extremely restricted during the winter. Robert comments on summer snowfalls in the north. When snow is falling travelling on foot or by horse is extremely hazardous, because of the temperature, not the snowfall itself.

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@corbon There is a gap in the timeline of at least nine months between Harrenhal and the taking of Lyanna, to allow for Aegon to be born. I don't see how anyone can object to a nine month winter between. Lyanna was offered to Robert at Harrenhal, after the first night, because Robert had more interest in is war of cups than he did for Lyanna. If he was already betrothed to her, and this is the first time he has seen her in a long time, ignoring her would be improbable, even for Robert. During the conversation, in Winterfell with Ned, it is the day the betrothal is announced, and Lyanna has met Robert, and knows of the bastard he fathered in the Vale, and his proclivities for dringking and whoring.

As far as winter being nothing, below the Neck, where is the Vale? It is below the Neck, but they abandon the Eyrie during winter. I am from the PacNW, and lived in LA for an extended period. In the mountains in both places, travel is extremely restricted during the winter. Robert comments on summer snowfalls in the north. When snow is falling travelling on foot or by horse is extremely hazardous, because of the temperature, not the snowfall itself.

Who is to say that Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't have an affair earlier in the timeline and then ran off together to get married.

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Who is to say that Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't have an affair earlier in the timeline and then ran off together to get married.
Well, I have laid the timeline out, before. You can go research it, but keep in mind that Jaime was 15 at Harrenhal, and 17 when he killed Aerys. That Rhaenys was 2 maybe 3 when she was killed, and her birth had kept Elia bedridden for half a year afterwards. Aegon was a year old when he was killed. It starts mounting up pretty solid that Harrenhal was 24 +/-3 months before the fall of King's Landing. No, Rhaegar's expression changed in Daenerys' vision of him, when he said, "there must be one more."

ETA: If Rhaegar and Lyanna had started an affair prior to marriage, Ned is not going to remember Rhaegar as anything better than a dishonorer. Ned clearly does not.

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I believe they started an affair before they eloped

It would be really out of nowhere for Rhaegar to go to Lyanna and be like, hey let's run away as friends for no reason"

They obviously had something going on. Maybe that's why Brandon lost his mind, not because Rhae "kidanapped Lyanna" but because he discovered their affair so he went directly where he thought Rhaegar would be, in KL.

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I believe they started an affair before they eloped

It would be really out of nowhere for Rhaegar to go to Lyanna and be like, hey let's run away as friends for no reason"

They obviously had something going on. Maybe that's why Brandon lost his mind, not because Rhae "kidanapped Lyanna" but because he discovered their affair so he went directly where he thought Rhaegar would be, in KL.

It would be a lovely irony that Brandon went nuts because he presumed that Rhaegar had been doing with his sister the same what he had been doing with Barbrey Ryswell.

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ETA: If Rhaegar and Lyanna had started an affair prior to marriage, Ned is not going to remember Rhaegar as anything better than a dishonorer. Ned clearly does not.

Well, there's still the possibility that Ned did not know of this, though it's unlikely.

And they still could've had a romantic relationship for the time being, not yet a carnal one.

I believe they started an affair before they eloped

It would be really out of nowhere for Rhaegar to go to Lyanna and be like, hey let's run away as friends for no reason"

:agree: although, again, maybe not carnal from the start, explaining why Ned did not have a problem with it, as he himself seemed to have a crush on Ashara.

And it's also interesting to muse whether it really was Rhaegar's idea. We know that he was the one to carry out the alleged abduction, what we don't know is

on whose incentive the idea or the plan came to be. After all, Rhaegar was the melancholic, resigned type whereas Lyanna was wild and willfull.

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Well, there's still the possibility that Ned did not know of this, though it's unlikely.

And they still could've had a romantic relationship for the time being, not yet a carnal one.

:agree: although, again, maybe not carnal from the start, explaining why Ned did not have a problem with it, as he himself seemed to have a crush on Ashara.

And it's also interesting to muse whether it really was Rhaegar's idea. We know that he was the one to carry out the alleged abduction, what we don't know is

on whose incentive the idea or the plan came to be. After all, Rhaegar was the melancholic, resigned type whereas Lyanna was wild and willfull.

Since the official story is that Lyanna was a helpless victim of Rhaegar's claws, It would be really surprising to the characters finding out that Lyanna was the one who wanted to run away and Rhaegar was pussy whipped so he ended agreeing after persuasion

I don't know, the guy was so dutiful and seemed acceptable of his unhappy life while Lyanna was wild and younger, naive even. I can totally see the idea coming from her and him having doubts

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I just find it odd that apparently no-one in the Seven Kingdoms was speculating about or looking for a R+L child. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

This always bugged me. It was brought up in prior threads, but from reading those, I get the sense that the best explanation is that no one really questioned Ned, people were kind of happy to see Ned the Honorable end up with a bastard just like everyone else, the war was over and no one was looking to start it again, and there isn't one person who really has all the pieces (except Howland Reed, obviously). I don't think that is totally satisfactory, but I also think that when you aren't looking for something, then it isn't nearly so obvious. I know a number of people who have read the books and when asked, say that Wylla is Jon's mom and don't even perceive of Jon's parentage as an issue in the story. I think if you've read a lot of fantasy or just epics in general, you are familiar with the "hidden hero" idea, so are probably more attuned to the clues than others. Certainly, we readers have tons more info than the characters themselves, and they have plenty of other issues to worry about.

That being said, I still keep thinking Tyrion is just one or two crucial pieces of evidence away. A nice conversation with Selmy about exactly what the Kingsguard vows are for starters...and if Lemore is really Ashara, maybe a mention that Ned brought Dawn back to House Dayne on his return from Dorne. I think Tyrion could put it together that the Kingsguard was in Dorne and why they'd be there, and he knows Jon...

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Who is to say that Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't have an affair earlier in the timeline and then ran off together to get married.

Maybe I should have put it another way. It would be totally in character for Rhaegar to recognize Lyanna's skill and honor in her taking the cloak of the KotLT, but not form an attachment because he was bound to Elia. He may remember her fondly, from time to time, as Elia's delivery date nears, but he would honorably refrain from having further contact, with Lyanna, until the crisis. The crisis is when Elia presents him with Aegon and must declare that she cannot be a mother again. Rhaegar is stymied in his quest for a three headed dragon, and must find a way to have another child. That is why his expression changes, and it is not a surprise that he establishes contact with Lyanna at this point. He had married Elia out of duty, and now he was following his heart.

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