from GRRM's blog: Jeyne Westerling and other characters in TWoW

[LordStoneheart]

That'd be Catlyn.

the North ruined the North more than Catelyn is to blame.

[aryagonnakill]

My statement that Catlyn ruined the North was in response to a statement saying that Jeyne Westerling ruined it, I was simply saying that in comparison I thought Catlyn to have been even worse. In reality, if any 1 person is responsible than that was Robb.

[Slayer of Lies]

We can, GRRM confirmed that it was her and that the hip thing was a mistake.

…which is to say, Elio said GRRM said it was a mistake.

But the interview quote from Elio that I remember spawning the “confirmation” is, unfortunately, not bulletproof:

"I'm pretty sure it was just a mistake. George has apparently told people that it’s a mistake.”

This may stem from a response GRRM reportedly gave to a reader during a signing:

“When we approached the stage for signings we had the chance to ask a quick question, and he told me that that the hips were a mistake unfortunately.”

I still tend to take this as “close enough” to confirmation that GRRM said it was a mistake, and maybe there’s a video clip out there that I’ve missed or something where he makes it 100% clear, but without that it seems possible the case is still open.

In either event, I no longer believe Jeyne’s pregnant, but I’m still a little mystified as to why only one daughter was present for the encounter with Jaime. Perhaps it’s nothing.

Or perhaps someone has a more conclusive, case-closing GRRM quote on the matter that I’ve missed.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

the North ruined the North more than Catelyn is to blame.

My statement that Catlyn ruined the North was in response to a statement saying that Jeyne Westerling ruined it, I was simply saying that in comparison I thought Catlyn to have been even worse. In reality, if any 1 person is responsible than that was Robb.

I don’t think so:

1. It was Cat who prematurely grabbed Tyrion, thereby giving Tywin the pretext that he needed to invade and devastate the Riverlands.

2. It was Cat who took Tyrion to the Vale and lost him as a hostage.

3. It was Cat who pushed Ned to send Jon to the Wall, robbing the North of a capable captain should anything happen to Ned and Robb.

4. It was Cat who released Jaime, thereby freeing Roose and Walder Frey to commit their treachery.

5. It was Cat that led Robb to name Roose Bolton commander of the greater part of the Northern force.

Cat is one of the true villains of this story and the bane of the North.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

I don’t think so:

1. It was Cat who prematurely grabbed Tyrion, thereby giving Tywin the pretext that he needed to invade and devastate the Riverlands.

2. It was Cat who took Tyrion to the Vale and lost him as a hostage.

3. It was Cat who pushed Ned to send Jon to the Wall, robbing the North of a capable captain should anything happen to Ned and Robb.

4. It was Cat who released Jaime, thereby freeing Roose and Walder Frey to commit their treachery.

5. It was Cat that led Robb to name Roose Bolton commander of the greater part of the Northern force.

Cat is one of the true villains of this story and the bane of the North.

Could I kindly point out that this isnt the purpose of this thread? Perhaps your views are better suited here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99604-catelyn-allowed-the-red-wedding-to-happen/page-8#entry5154043

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Could I kindly point out that this isnt the purpose of this thread? Perhaps your views are better suited here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99604-catelyn-allowed-the-red-wedding-to-happen/page-8#entry5154043

Had not read the entire thread. Just responding to a couple of previous posters. However, I will abide by whatever conventions have been setup for this thread.

If you are taking the initiative to “Kindly” point me to another thread, make damn sure you are doing it for others.

Good day to you.

[aryagonnakill]

…which is to say, Elio said GRRM said it was a mistake.

But the interview quote from Elio that I remember spawning the “confirmation” is, unfortunately, not bulletproof:

This may stem from a response GRRM reportedly gave to a reader during a signing:

I still tend to take this as “close enough” to confirmation that GRRM said it was a mistake, and maybe there’s a video clip out there that I’ve missed or something where he makes it 100% clear, but without that it seems possible the case is still open.

In either event, I no longer believe Jeyne’s pregnant, but I’m still a little mystified as to why only one daughter was present for the encounter with Jaime. Perhaps it’s nothing.

Or perhaps someone has a more conclusive, case-closing GRRM quote on the matter that I’ve missed.

Hmm, before GRRM's statement I had actually taken the hip statement to be an unconscious thing Jaime did whereby he thought a woman smaller than Brienne was too small. If that makes sense.

I don’t think so:

1. It was Cat who prematurely grabbed Tyrion, thereby giving Tywin the pretext that he needed to invade and devastate the Riverlands.

2. It was Cat who took Tyrion to the Vale and lost him as a hostage.

3. It was Cat who pushed Ned to send Jon to the Wall, robbing the North of a capable captain should anything happen to Ned and Robb.

4. It was Cat who released Jaime, thereby freeing Roose and Walder Frey to commit their treachery.

5. It was Cat that led Robb to name Roose Bolton commander of the greater part of the Northern force.

Cat is one of the true villains of this story and the bane of the North.

I could see that for sure, in any event I just really didn't think Jeyne should be blamed for anything since Robb made the decision to mary her and Catlyn set up the marriage between Robb and the Frey.

[Slayer of Lies]

Hmm, before GRRM's statement I had actually taken the hip statement to be an unconscious thing Jaime did whereby he thought a woman smaller than Brienne was too small. If that makes sense.

Interesting angle I hadn't thought of, but I think the fact that it was "apparently" mentioned by GRRM as a mistake would suggest that the hip description mismatch was a "miss" on the part of his editors... if, in fact, GRRM acknowledged it as such, which I'm only mostly sold on based on the sources I've found so far. "Apparently" and "pretty sure" have me... "mostly" convinced.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I could see that for sure, in any event I just really didn't think Jeyne should be blamed for anything since Robb made the decision to mary her and Catlyn set up the marriage between Robb and the Frey.

Agreed, Jeyne is completely innocent in the fall of Robb and the North. All fault resides with Cat and Robb.

[WargMeIn]

Agreed, Jeyne is completely innocent in the fall of Robb and the North. All fault resides with Cat and Robb.

Jeyne and her family cannot be considered completely innocent. The question remains why they said yes to a marriage that could (and still may) result in the complete destruction of their house (Reynes of Castamere, anyone?) I have a feeling we are going to find out the answer(s) in TWoW through Jeyne.

The downfall of Robb was his (and Catelyn's) doing, but nothing that either of them did guaranteed their failure. The problem was that neither of them were great players - each move thathey made was OK in itself, but put all together they made for a mess - they just couldn't see the game as a whole and always be looking several moves ahead

[Scrambled Aegon]

Agreed, Jeyne is completely innocent in the fall of Robb and the North. All fault resides with Cat and Robb.

I personally would argue that all fault resides with Walder Frey

[WhiteGhost]

Mayhaps the Starks will borrow a page from Lannisters' book and she'll become Rickon's wife ?

Or a page from the Stark's book, like when Eddard married Catlyn after Brandon was killed.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Jeyne and her family cannot be considered completely innocent. The question remains why they said yes to a marriage that could (and still may) result in the complete destruction of their house (Reynes of Castamere, anyone?) I have a feeling we are going to find out the answer(s) in TWoW through Jeyne.

The downfall of Robb was his (and Catelyn's) doing, but nothing that either of them did guaranteed their failure. The problem was that neither of them were great players - each move thathey made was OK in itself, but put all together they made for a mess - they just couldn't see the game as a whole and always be looking several moves ahead

Releasing Theon, breaking a sacred vow to a very powerful bannerman, and entrusting the mass bulk of your forces to the head of a bitter rival are all pretty big mistakes with very low percentages of success. Cat was even worse.

All Jeyne’s family (mother really) was ensure Jeyne did not get pregnant.

I personally would argue that all fault resides with Walder Frey

No, Walder did indeed initiate the Red Wedding, but the conditions for him to do so were made possible by the mistakes made by Cat Robb. He was loyal until then.

Thanks for the discussion fellow posters, but I’m not sure how much to deviate from the thread. I’d hate to get another “Talking to” from the a _ _ hole that responded to one of my post earlier.

[WargMeIn]

Releasing Theon, breaking a sacred vow to a very powerful bannerman, and entrusting the mass bulk of your forces to the head of a bitter rival are all pretty big mistakes with very low percentages of success. Cat was even worse.

All Jeyne’s family (mother really) was ensure Jeyne did not get pregnant.

You expect an awful lot from a 16 year old.

Sending Theon was a risk, but it hat had a possible upside that just didn't happen. I think Balon would have attacked the North regardless of who Robb sent. Theon going after WF was due to his father's rejection, not from Balon's orders.

He hadn't actually broken any vows yet. He vowed to marry one of Frey's daughters after the war was over. Realistically, he's 16, wounded, and in the middle of the war. Anyone other than Walder Frey (and you) would cut him some slack.

House Bolton may be considered a rival, but one of his closest relations dealt them the biggest blow - Edmure going out and attacking Tywin Lannister's forces.

If you expect perfection in people you are going to be sorely disappointed all of the time.

Robb and Catelyn deserved to lose given their mistakes, but the fault for the RW always lies at the feet of Walder Frey and I expect we will see the "gods'" retribution for that in TWoW.

[aryagonnakill]

Perhaps if we see Jeyne again it will be to confirm once and for all whether she intentionally seduced Robb and whether she knew she was drinking an abortion drink or if she did indeed think she was being fertilized. I am inclined to think that Jeyne herself was completely innocent since she would be a more convincing actress that way. She was probably nudged in Robbs direction by her mom and told she was being fertilized, the drink very well could have been a fertility drink and either she or Robb could have simply had a problem, or she could have had a fertility drink while Robb was winning and an abortion drink when things had turned around.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

You expect an awful lot from a 16 year old.

Sending Theon was a risk, but it hat had a possible upside that just didn't happen. I think Balon would have attacked the North regardless of who Robb sent. Theon going after WF was due to his father's rejection, not from Balon's orders.

He hadn't actually broken any vows yet. He vowed to marry one of Frey's daughters after the war was over. Realistically, he's 16, wounded, and in the middle of the war. Anyone other than Walder Frey (and you) would cut him some slack.

House Bolton may be considered a rival, but one of his closest relations dealt them the biggest blow - Edmure going out and attacking Tywin Lannister's forces.

If you expect perfection in people you are going to be sorely disappointed all of the time.

Robb and Catelyn deserved to lose given their mistakes, but the fault for the RW always lies at the feet of Walder Frey and I expect we will see the "gods'" retribution for that in TWoW.

Well, yeah. Its a victory or death situation. Robb handled the military part of the war excellently, as Ned taught him well. He simply was not ready for the diplomatic/political part of the war. Ned would have never released Theon and he should have sought the counsel of others before he did so. Ned would never have shamed an ally and broken a sacred vow.

Balon would not have attacked with his only male heir still in captivity. You know who important male heirs are in the series and during these particular times. Balon likely did not settle on the attack until after Theon was in hand. And Edmure should have been let in on the plan. Stupid as he is, he should have been told, if only to avoid the critical error that he made.

I don’t expect perfection, but I do expect competence in life or death situations.

Perhaps if we see Jeyne again it will be to confirm once and for all whether she intentionally seduced Robb and whether she knew she was drinking an abortion drink or if she did indeed think she was being fertilized. I am inclined to think that Jeyne herself was completely innocent since she would be a more convincing actress that way. She was probably nudged in Robbs direction by her mom and told she was being fertilized, the drink very well could have been a fertility drink and either she or Robb could have simply had a problem, or she could have had a fertility drink while Robb was winning and an abortion drink when things had turned around.

I tend to agree with you. I think the meeting/coupling of Robb and Jeyne was legit and w/o any scheming by Lady Westerling. None of the men in her family knew of her treachery. She simply saw an opportunity to conspire with Tywin and elevate her family and she took it. I think we will find that Jeyne truly loved Robb and was an innocent.

[WargMeIn]

Well, yeah. Its a victory or death situation. Robb handled the military part of the war excellently, as Ned taught him well. He simply was not ready for the diplomatic/political part of the war. Ned would have never released Theon and he should have sought the counsel of others before he did so. Ned would never have shamed an ally and broken a sacred vow.

Balon would not have attacked with his only male heir still in captivity. You know who important male heirs are in the series and during these particular times. Balon likely did not settle on the attack until after Theon was in hand. And Edmure should have been let in on the plan. Stupid as he is, he should have been told, if only to avoid the critical error that he made.

I don’t expect perfection, but I do expect competence in life or death situations.

You have made a grave tactical blunder bringing Lord Eddard into this discussion. It's Ned's sense of honor passed down to his eldest son that leads him to marrying Jeyne in the first place.

You must be reading a different version of the books. Balon considered his son lost to him. The only thing keeping him from attacking the north again was the strength of the Starks. Once he heard they'd been weakened, he was going to attack.

Edmure didn't need to know, he needed to do what he was told - sit tight. The fewer people who know a plan, the more likely that it stays hidden from you enemy.

Eddard can be blamed for incompetence in his handling of the events going to and in KL that lead to his death. He should have known better how to handle each situation.

Robb and Catelyn however did act competently, just not well enough to keep from getting outplayed and betrayed.

[Whitering]

The media and writers and others think if you throw a young man and young woman together they will do it. Add in an English Patient storyline (I never actually watched it), oh boy, how is anyone supposed to resist that :bang:

Whatever, Robb is a hyper horny teenager boy, it's one of the stereotypes nobody complains about because it's kind of true, but nobody really gives a shit when men are giving these negative qualities in every form of medium for all time.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

You have made a grave tactical blunder bringing Lord Eddard into this discussion. It's Ned's sense of honor passed down to his eldest son that leads him to marrying Jeyne in the first place.

You must be reading a different version of the books. Balon considered his son lost to him. The only thing keeping him from attacking the north again was the strength of the Starks. Once he heard they'd been weakened, he was going to attack.

Edmure didn't need to know, he needed to do what he was told - sit tight. The fewer people who know a plan, the more likely that it stays hidden from you enemy.

Eddard can be blamed for incompetence in his handling of the events going to and in KL that lead to his death. He should have known better how to handle each situation.

Robb and Catelyn however did act competently, just not well enough to keep from getting outplayed and betrayed.

1. I’m quite well versed in the books...are you? It is true that Lord Balon had his strength assembled when Theon arrived, but it was not until Theon was in hand did he fully commit to any plan. He had no knowledge of the Stark plans, no knowledge of what forces Robb left, no knowledge of Robb’s intent. Theon and his letter provided all of these things. Asha may have been raised as a possible heir, but there was no certainty to the ironmen following her.

2. Ned was a poor player at the Game of Thrones, not at military tactics or keeping vows. Robb should have thought of what his father would have done in the same situation.

3. Edmure was de facto lord paramount of the Riverlands. Tywin Lannister looked as if he was bringing 20,000 men back to the Westerlands to trap King Robb or even take him in the rear unawares. Any commander without knowledge of the true plan would have acted the same.

4. Competent? What story have you read?

[aryagonnakill]

Edmure didn't need to know, he needed to do what he was told - sit tight. The fewer people who know a plan, the more likely that it stays hidden from you enemy.

It looks like something weird happened to the quotes there but you get the point. Not only what stallion said but you do not sit in a castle to defend it, especially if you have near as many men as your attacker. Defense in depth is a concept taught in any military school. Holding those fords was the most logical thing he could have done, he had a huge advantage there given the terrain.