Atheist kids these days...

[naz]

Yeah I got hitched. It was after the age of 35, but there were no bridges nearby.

Thanks guys :)

And here I thought that, like your namesake, you'd be celibate forever.... Glad to know you're not. :)

[thistlepong]

I don't know that folks in the US have much chance of experiencing the whole "being atheist is normal" paradigm. We sort of have a relationship with faith whether we want one or not. I see a lot of folks describing their estrangement from the gods of their parents or gods in general. And, y'know, I've seen and heard from a lot of folks who've experienced an awakening or rebirth.

Losing and finding religion seems rather easy, here. Living without it or with as little influence as possible seems difficult.

I'd intended to respond to individuals but I've had little time lately. Reading the narratives y'all have laid down, I'm torn. Raising critical thinkers oughtta be the bare minimum, but does it follow that those same inquisitive minds must needs be exposed to... whatever, several Qu'rans, the Mahabharata, and The Hypostasis of the Archons? Or should all of it just be ignored, treated as fiction when it enters the environment coincidentally?

[Sci-2]

Raising critical thinkers oughtta be the bare minimum, but does it follow that those same inquisitive minds must needs be exposed to... whatever, several Qu'rans, the Mahabharata, and The Hypostasis of the Archons? Or should all of it just be ignored, treated as fiction when it enters the environment coincidentally?

Must? No.

But I find it a bit odd to insist that anything beyond the material is fiction. Isn't enough to say you don't believe and let them decide what aspects of the spiritual to accept/reject?

[thistlepong]

Must? No.

But I find it a bit odd to insist that anything beyond the material is fiction. Isn't enough to say you don't believe and let them decide what aspects of the spiritual to accept/reject?

I don't have an answer to that. S' why I'm asking.

I mean, that sounds great and open and all. But why wouldn't it be better to insist on the material if that's all we've got?

[Gertrude]

I don't know that folks in the US have much chance of experiencing the whole "being atheist is normal" paradigm. We sort of have a relationship with faith whether we want one or not. I see a lot of folks describing their estrangement from the gods of their parents or gods in general. And, y'know, I've seen and heard from a lot of folks who've experienced an awakening or rebirth.

Losing and finding religion seems rather easy, here. Living without it or with as little influence as possible seems difficult.

I don't know, my life has been devoid of religion and it seems normal to me. Sure, I see it around me, but it doesn't have an actual impact on my daily life. There are times when I run up against it, but those are very few and far between.

[Sci-2]

I don't have an answer to that. S' why I'm asking.

I mean, that sounds great and open and all. But why wouldn't it be better to insist on the material if that's all we've got?

Can't fundamentalist Christians [or Muslims and so on] say the same - Why teach tolerance for other viewpoints if it only increases the chance my child is damned for eternity?

But beyond that, while I'm a doubting agnostic my search for the answers definitely made me a better person in multiple senses of the word. If I'd been taught from the get go that there's likely nothing more than the material, I feel like a huge part of my own personal journey would be stunted.

[thistlepong]

I don't know, my life has been devoid of religion and it seems normal to me. Sure, I see it around me, but it doesn't have an actual impact on my daily life. There are times when I run up against it, but those are very few and far between.

That was specific to the US. Protestant Christianity is all up in our business, our laws, our schools. Indeed, it was actually the remembrances of other posters reverberating with my own and my peers. Any youngling oughta be prepared the moment ze enters public school to be confronted with the concept (s).

Just wondering how to establish that preparation.

[thistlepong]

Please pardon the double post.

Can't fundamentalist Christians [or Muslims and so on] say the same - Why teach tolerance for other viewpoints if it only increases the chance my child is damned for eternity?

But beyond that, while I'm a doubting agnostic my search for the answers definitely made me a better person in multiple senses of the word. If I'd been taught from the get go that there's likely nothing more than the material, I feel like a huge part of my own personal journey would be stunted.

Tolerance and entertainment are not the same thing. Neither are tolerance and encouragement. But your question's fair. Fundamentalists, by definition, don't teach other viewpoints. Why should materialists? How does it help?

This is mostly adversarial advocacy as an attempt to get interesting responses. In my anecdotal experience teaching kids half a dozen traditions in the absence of strong parent/guardian guidance yeilds mostly agnostics and atheists. If this thread's anything to go by, even a single unsupported faith will generally do that, too.

But isn't that time wasted? Wouldn't it be better spent on, say, deportment and elocution if politesse is all you're going for? Material grace rather than a smorgasbord of rejected noetic graces?

As for the agnostic personal journey, I have my own doubts about its value. I have a friend who's built a few different microscopes trying to get a better look at neural activity. Apparently there's a point where there's just some interference. If you try to get closer you get static. What good is wondering if that's god?

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Being raised in north Mississippi, protestant Christianity was inexorably linked to the culture I grew up in. To this day it's considered an oddity (at best) to not attend religious services, much less to openly profess atheism.

That said, my family was not typical. My mom is nominally a Southern Baptist, although she hasn't set foot in a church in about 25 years and rarely mentions religion anymore in casual conversation. She made me attend weekly church services as a child, which I did up until about age 15 or 16 when despite considerable duress from mom I decided to quit going. I now consider myself agnostic/apatheist, and since the subject never comes up, mom and I simply don't talk about it. I think she would prefer for me to be religious now, but she hasn't pressed me on it in decades. Might be she'd rather not face the truth of the situation.

My dad has been an apatheist as long as I've known him. The man will talk your ear off about any number of subjects, but I can't recall us ever having a conversation about religion. It simply doesn't interest him in the least.

My sister recently "came out" to me as an atheist (she's 49, 10 years my senior). She indicated that like me, she never really believed in any of it but attended church when she was younger and played along to make mom happy. Interesting that she and I developed similar beliefs without ever discussing them with one another. She is a bit more 'militant' than I am in regard to her disdain for religion in general.

[Gramsci]

Being raised in north Mississippi, protestant Christianity was inexorably linked to the culture I grew up in. To this day it's considered an oddity (at best) to not attend religious services, much less to openly profess atheism.

This big time. When I first moved to North Carolina, I experienced something very similar. There is a natural progression of questions that people seem to follow, with rehearsed answers to your response. "What church do you go to?" is sometimes the second or third thing I am asked. Often, when they find out that I was baptized as a Catholic (at my grandmother's insistence), I am met with the question "Were you baptized by your own volition?"

The school I teach at regularly holds prayers during staff meetings, luncheons, and other school activities, though I am not of a mind to object to it and ostracize myself from a community as small as this one. It is even more touchy teaching history. The Protestant Reformation is all well and good, but when you get into what we label "world religions", or even the dominance of the Catholic Church in medieval society? You are guaranteed phone calls from distressed parents. On more than one occasion I had a parent confront me regarding teaching their child that Catholicism was a Christian denomination, which they believed to be a lie.

In short, the ubiquity of faith and religion in society seems to have a lot to do with geography, at least in the case of the US.

[thecryptile]

In short, the ubiquity of faith and religion in society seems to have a lot to do with geography, at least in the case of the US.

I would say this is a global phenomena- religion isn't such a Big Deal in Western Europe, but if you go to Saudi Arabia; it makes the US Bible Belt look like San Francisco.

[Sci-2]

But isn't that time wasted? Wouldn't it be better spent on, say, deportment and elocution if politesse is all you're going for? Material grace rather than a smorgasbord of rejected noetic graces?

What exactly is "material grace"? I'm not sure how learning to decide matters of faith for oneself is time wasted.

As for the agnostic personal journey, I have my own doubts about its value.

For some people it might not be valuable. For me it was incredibly so.

If I had a kid I would let them decide what's worth pursuing in life. Are you worried they'll pick beliefs you don't like?

[Gramsci]

I would say this is a global phenomena- religion isn't such a Big Deal in Western Europe, but if you go to Saudi Arabia; it makes the US Bible Belt look like San Francisco.

But are there variations in the level of devoutness within Saudi Arabia that exist along distinct geographic lines? I suppose it would have been less ambiguous had I said "the ubiquity of faith and religion within a single country"?

I think in the US, if you start in Maine you are going to see a fairly secular society; however, as you gradually move South the culture is dominated more and more by religion. By the time you reach parts of Florida it begins to move in the other direction, as South Florida is fairly secular.

It seems to me that the level of religiosity, if you want to call it that, despite the United States being predominately a single religion, is significantly greater in one geographic part of the country than the other. That could be completely off base, though. I don't pretend to have visited every part of the United States.

Is the North of England markedly more religious than the South? Are the Basque and Catalan portions of Spain more religious than the Castilian or Andalusian portions?

Definitely something that would be interesting to look into.

[thistlepong]

What exactly is "material grace"? I'm not sure how learning to decide matters of faith for oneself is time wasted.

It was a pun. And, since I was feeling punchy, it was a bit of a snark about tolerance. Teaching the young poise and grace might go a lot further toward maintaining a polite, tolerant, society than teaching them about a bunch of faiths. Knamean? So, material, present, grace - social and physical - versus theophany.

If I had a kid I would let them decide what's worth pursuing in life. Are you worried they'll pick beliefs you don't like?

Oh my, no. This is really about what's more advantageous. The benefits of, say, Roman Catholocism or Judaism are obvious. I'm wondering if there are real benefits to atheism over agnosticism with this series of questions.

[lessthanluke]

I was raised by Jehovah's Witnesses. Hard core religious fundamentalists. My entire childhood lived and breathed this cult. (There are JW's with different levels of commitment. My family are all about it.)

Sure I believed when I was young. Because it was all I knew. And I was punished for asking questions that lead to thinking outside the religion.

I do remember fairly early on having an issue with what was being taught from the stage. But knew better than to say anything about it. They (at least used to) discourage education. Whenever I complained that I wasn't getting time to do my homework. My father would ask what the point was. Jehovah will be destroying this wicked world any moment now. And what use would a worldly education do me in the new system of things.

We went to meetings (Church) 3 times a week had family bible study 3 times a week and I was forced to go door knocking at least twice a week (On holidays I was made to put in at least 30 hours door to door). On one of those family study nights. We were required to sit at the table and take turns reading the bible out loud and discussing at length what the scriptures meant. (I was mad that I had to read some of that messed up stuff but wasn't allowed to watch Disney movies) Most of the time though we weren't allowed to interrupt the scripture ourselves. The publications of the Watchtower and bible tract society (The corporate name of the JW's) are prized above the bible. As they believe the bible can not be understood with out the Watchtower books and magazines.

I really started to question things. Things like being told that watching Scooby doo or smurfs are inviting demons into the house.

I was told I couldn't be friends with a girl - I got along really well with at school - who wasn't a JW would be destroyed at Armageddon because she doesn't believe in Jehovah. I was punished every time I was caught talking to her.

I was taught that women are lesser beings to men. We weren't allowed to gain "Privileges" in the congregation but we are only useful to God by going door to door selling saving people with the WTBTS publications. Caring for our husbands and raising our children in the ways of the truth.

And the times I was out door to door and a JW would call 'dibs' on a house for after the "End of Times". When the owner of a nice home would declare "I'm not interested". That was taken as a rejection of the truth and their chance to be saved for eternal life on earth. Therefore after Armageddon their homes would be available. I personally found this to be incredibly disgusting.

I also disagreed with their blood policy. But I knew if I was ever in a situation where I needed a blood transfusion. My family would deny me. It was a frightening thought to me. They would happily let me die. Because of how they interpret the bible and they would write it off as a test of their faith. Honestly even though I'm out the thought still scares me that my parents could still somehow intervene.

I got to the point where I hated everything about being apart of the religion but knew if I left I would be disowned and shunned. I became suicidal and got to the point where I either left or died.

I left and am dead to my family.

After much research and soul searching. I am an Atheist.

But the one thing I truly hated as a child was I was never given a choice. I never had the right to think for myself.

So I will not push my atheism onto my sons. But I will not expose them to religion either. They will get plenty of opportunity to be exposed to all different belief systems. And I will be on the side lines encouraging them to ask questions and think complexly.

And ultimately be supportive of the path they choose.

Thanks for sharing this. I would like to add that not all JWs are like this however. Most of my dads side of the family are JWs and are all great. (apart from being religious)

[Galactus]

But are there variations in the level of devoutness within Saudi Arabia that exist along distinct geographic lines? I suppose it would have been less ambiguous had I said "the ubiquity of faith and religion within a single country"?

I think in the US, if you start in Maine you are going to see a fairly secular society; however, as you gradually move South the culture is dominated more and more by religion. By the time you reach parts of Florida it begins to move in the other direction, as South Florida is fairly secular.

It seems to me that the level of religiosity, if you want to call it that, despite the United States being predominately a single religion, is significantly greater in one geographic part of the country than the other. That could be completely off base, though. I don't pretend to have visited every part of the United States.

Is the North of England markedly more religious than the South? Are the Basque and Catalan portions of Spain more religious than the Castilian or Andalusian portions?

Definitely something that would be interesting to look into.

There's definitely distinct areas of differing levels of religiousity here. (although by now most of them have kind of died down) there's a strain of old "revival" stuff here (Laestadians, etc.) while my home area is mostly EFS, the Christian Democrats meanwhile are largely concentrated around Småland, etc.

[TheLoneliestMonk]

Would teaching ones child empiricism be thought of as teaching them atheism and/or agnosticism?

[Otho Bracken]

I was raised atheist, and am raising atheist daughters, now aged 15 and 17. They've encountered scorn and prejudice, as well as well-meaning evangelicals who attempt to convert them. I have read them parts of the bible and regularly entertain JWs within earshot of my girls. I tell them to learn about religion and make their own decisions. So far, they're still not buying any of that old-man-in-the-sky stuff.

[thistlepong]

I was raised atheist, and am raising atheist daughters, now aged 15 and 17. They've encountered scorn and prejudice, as well as well-meaning evangelicals who attempt to convert them. I have read them parts of the bible and regularly entertain JWs within earshot of my girls. I tell them to learn about religion and make their own decisions. So far, they're still not buying any of that old-man-in-the-sky stuff.

May I ask where, roughly, you are and when they first encountered both scorn and evangelism?

[Madfunkymonkey]

I have a question for the Atheists here.

Do your religious friends and/or family try to convert you or say that you are wrong or do they leave you alone about it?

And do you try to do the same?

The only problem I have with Atheists is when they say that religious people are wrong. Just like when a vegan gets all high and mighty by saying that killing and eating animals is wrong.

You will find that if you leave people alone with their beliefs that the issue wouldn't be a big deal.