Septa Lemore is?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Making grammatical errors when typing posts is something I admit to doing, but I just re-read that sentence and I don't see what part of it is a problem. Maybe if you diagram the sentence you can understand it better…I see a subject, verb, and object.

Ι don't mean that. I mean that I cannot understand what you mean.

The Ashara equals lemore the most ridiculized theory in this foruns after mance is Rhaegar?

and Khal Ned.

[Taenqyrhae]

What does one thing have to do with the other?

Tyrion is making a phisical description of a person that is in front of him and doesn't note her most amazing feature..curious..

What does a phisical description have to do with Joff being a bastard..

And the drunken Tyrion doesn't stand simply because connington didn't let him drink

Your entire argument is that purple eyes are so notable and important that Tyrion would have to mention it in his internal thoughts, that he would never leave out such an important detail.

He devotes far more words to talking about Joffrey in Game of Thrones than he does of Lemore in ADWD, yet not once does he mention or even THINK one of the most important things about Joffrey.

He does in later books, of course, and if Lemore is Ashara I am pretty sure that the purple eyes will get mentioned in the next book.

[Taenqyrhae]

Ι don't mean that. I mean that I cannot understand what you mean.

and Khal Ned.

I'm saying that when I discussed the use of the phrase "bed of blood" I was not 100% sure that my claim was true, so right there I said "I am not sure this is true, I don't have proof yet".

You repeatedly said that GRRM never refers to a woman under 40 as handsome in the series, insisted that you were right, and when someone pointed out that there were several who were, you still didn't believe it until you saw the quotes. You just make up things and claim they are true if they support your theory, and won't admit that you are just guessing until someone proves you are wrong. That's very bad manners, and it's why I will ask for a quote from the books for every single claim you make about what is or isn't in the books because you have proven yourself unreliable at best, a liar at worst.

Thinking back, I'm a little annoyed that I took the time to explain logic to you and why the fact that GRRM only described women as over 40 as handsome did not mean that handsome meant over 40, because I took your claim about his use of the word on good faith. This is why people hate debating with liars.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I'm saying that when I discussed the use of the phrase "bed of blood" I was not 100% sure that my claim was true, so right there I said "I am not sure this is true, I don't have proof yet".

You repeatedly said that GRRM never refers to a woman under 40 as handsome in the series, insisted that you were right, and when someone pointed out that there were several who were, you still didn't believe it until you saw the quotes. You just make up things and claim they are true if they support your theory, and won't admit that you are just guessing until someone proves you are wrong. That's very bad manners, and it's why I will ask for a quote from the books for every single claim you make about what is or isn't in the books because you have proven yourself unreliable at best, a liar at worst.

If you have to personally attack someone which is low, tacky and very immature at least do it properly I have already said I was wrong http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/93782-septa-lemore-is/?p=6950264

Tyrion said that Lemore was pass forty and GRRM said that she was 30.

Tyrion mentions no eyes which would be idiotic because she could had said that she was FAegon's mother.

So were are your quotes that Lemore is Ashara?

[Taenqyrhae]

If you have to personally attack someone which is low, tacky and very immature at least do it properly I have already said I was wrong http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/93782-septa-lemore-is/?p=6950264

Tyrion said that Lemore was pass forty and GRRM said that she was 30.

Tyrion mentions no eyes which would be idiotic because she could had said that she was FAegon's mother.

So were are your quotes that Lemore is Ashara?

You only said you were wrong after being shown you were wrong repeatedly, and you were intellectually dishonest by basing so much of your argument on something that you did not know to be true. If you had admitted you were wrong when you were first told that there were women under 40 referred to as handsome, then I'd have no grounds to criticize your poor debate skills. The fact you held onto that untruth and called other people mistaken for disagreeing with it shows that you are very immature.

[SFDanny]

Tyrion said that Lemore was pass forty and GRRM said that she was 30.

I'm assuming you mean Martin said Ashara was 30, right? Sorry, but I'm away from home right now, but I remember the Martin quote differently. Doesn't he respond to a question about Howland Reed by saying he is in his thirties, and then respond to the follow up question about Ashara's age with "Ditto"? Meaning anywhere from 30-39? Or am I missing a quote?

edit: here is the SSM in question.

6) How old is Howland Reed?

He'd be in his thirties.

7) And how would have been Ashara Dayne?

Ditto.

Note it says thirties, not thirty. As in from 30 years old to 39 years old as a range. Do you have anything that says different?

This SSM is from March 27, 2002 so it's after A Storm of Swords was published, putting the remarks in the context of year 299 or 300 AC. Which means if Ashara is Ned's age she turns 37 in 300, and if she is Brandon's age she turns 38 in 300. So the idea that makes Septa Lemore somehow too old to be Ashara is absurd. As I said before, Lemore has lived the last 12 years or so on a riverboat upon the Rhoyne. She hasn't lived the life of a pampered aristocratic lady of Westeros, but has been exposed to a much harsher existence. That Tyrion thinks she is over 40 in no way indicates that she can't be Ashara. It's a talking point that makes no sense.

[anonnyscouse]

Interesting quote from GRRM from long before ADWD came out (1999 in fact) suggesting purple eyes would not be that extraordinary:

I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . . look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are . . . well, neith Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man.

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

[Ygrain]

Explain why Ned NEVER thinks about, reminisces about, or mentions in passing anything describing the mother of Jon.

"Lovely" is not a physical description, which is why you never see it in police reports. A description creates a picture of a person in your mind. I could say a woman is "lovely" and she could be anyone from Chloe Grace Moretz to Halle Berry. It's not moving the goalposts to say "lovely" is not a physical description. It could even be used to describe someone who was physically ugly but lovely in other ways.

Oh, come on. It is more than obvious that Ned uses "surpassing loveliness" in the meaning of "beautiful", and, while vague, that is physical description. You demanded anything, not a specific feature :P

[Marcel]

Tyrion failing to mention Septa Lemore's purple eyes, if she is Ashara Dayne, is an insurmountable difficulty to me. Unless we accept the fact that GRRM deliberately suppressed information that should have been provided in that context, I do not see how to support the argument that Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne.

[Ygrain]

Tyrion failing to mention Septa Lemore's purple eyes, if she is Ashara Dayne, is an insurmountable difficulty to me. Unless we accept the fact that GRRM deliberately suppressed information that should have been provided in that context, I do not see how to support the argument that Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne.

Especially that on at least one occasion, Tyrion watches Lemore closely, sober and without lechery. leaving out purple eyes, or just any reference that might later be connected to Ashara's defining feature, would be like having a murder mystery leave out the fact that someone was seen red-handed.

[Lord BitterRaven]

Especially that on at least one occasion, Tyrion watches Lemore closely, sober and without lechery. leaving out purple eyes, or just any reference that might later be connected to Ashara's defining feature, would be like having a murder mystery leave out the fact that someone was seen red-handed.

Tyrion is drying out and about the only solace he has is watching lemore bathe naked in the morning. He describes her body and her face being handsome with brown hair. He makes no mention of eye color at all, which is a little curious when it comes to how detailed Martin usually is with physical descriptions. I think Tyrion is just too preoccupied with watching her naked and riddling out aegon and jon con to really focus in Lemore. I know that he mentions that she's more than what she seems, but he says it right before Jorah kidnaps him so he never gets a chance to take a closer look.

[SFDanny]

Tyrion failing to mention Septa Lemore's purple eyes, if she is Ashara Dayne, is an insurmountable difficulty to me. Unless we accept the fact that GRRM deliberately suppressed information that should have been provided in that context, I do not see how to support the argument that Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne.

Tyrion noting Septa Lemore's brown eyes would be and insurmountable difficulty to me. The fact he doesn't mention her eye color is only the author's way of saying Tyrion didn't notice or the author isn't telling what Tyrion noticed about eye color until he wants to.

[Ygrain]

Tyrion noting Septa Lemore's brown eyes would be and insurmountable difficulty to me. The fact he doesn't mention her eye color is only the author's way of saying Tyrion didn't notice or the author isn't telling what Tyrion noticed about eye color until he wants to.

Which would be absolutely and totally lame - see my parallel with a red-handed murderer.

Tyrion is drying out and about the only solace he has is watching lemore bathe naked in the morning. He describes her body and her face being handsome with brown hair. He makes no mention of eye color at all, which is a little curious when it comes to how detailed Martin usually is with physical descriptions. I think Tyrion is just too preoccupied with watching her naked and riddling out aegon and jon con to really focus in Lemore. I know that he mentions that she's more than what she seems, but he says it right before Jorah kidnaps him so he never gets a chance to take a closer look.

I was referring to this passage, which doesnt really fit to any of your objections:

Lemore had changed out of her septa’s robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I’d judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

[Mithras]

As I said it million times before, if someone has purple eyes before being revelaed as a Valyrian (or a Dayne), the eye color is mentioned to be dark blue and it is even mentioned that the eyes look purple under certain lighting and this all happens before the true identity (hence the true eye color) of that person is revealed. There is no exception to this. Egg, Daemon II, Edric Dayne, fAegon all fit this pattern. So, Lemore can not be Ashara. Sorry.

[SFDanny]

Which would be absolutely and totally lame - see my parallel with a red-handed murderer.

I was referring to this passage, which doesnt really fit to any of your objections:

Lemore had changed out of her septa’s robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I’d judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

Your view of lameness isn't shared by everyone. I don't think eye color is the same as your analogy. Ignoring or not noticing the color of a person's eyes is in no way comparable to a blood stained hand. People often cannot recall eye color. Unfortunately many men do not even make eye contact with women, but focus on other parts of a woman's body. A fact Martin makes use of in his recently released spoiler chapter. Tyrion can probably recall details of the shape of Lemore's breasts, but he may not have concentrated on looking her in the eyes. He wouldn't be the first man to do so. So that part of it is not unbelievable.

If he does notice her eye color, why then is it "lame" for the author to not note it for the reader, especially if it is a clue he doesn't want the reader to have at that point? We don't know that Tyrion knows anything about Ashara's appearance and would mark the significance of her eye color as a clue, but we as readers know it from other sources, so why give the reader a heads up when he's not ready to do so?

[SFDanny]

As I said it million times before, if someone has purple eyes before being revelaed as a Valyrian (or a Dayne), the eye color is mentioned to be dark blue and it is even mentioned that the eyes look purple under certain lighting and this all happens before the true identity (hence the true eye color) of that person is revealed. There is no exception to this. Egg, Daemon II, Edric Dayne, fAegon all fit this pattern. So, Lemore can not be Ashara. Sorry.

And you saying it a million times some how makes it true? Damn, if I'd known I'd be posting more often. The problem here is there is no eye color remarked on for Septa Lemore. We have nothing to judge her identity on regarding her eye color and that's how the author wanted it.

[Marcel]

Tyrion noting Septa Lemore's brown eyes would be and insurmountable difficulty to me. The fact he doesn't mention her eye color is only the author's way of saying Tyrion didn't notice or the author isn't telling what Tyrion noticed about eye color until he wants to.

I respect your opinion and you certainly seems to be an intelligent person who reflected enough about this issue. I will reread the excerpts that mentions purple eyes. If everyone who mentions purple eyes were people who somehow had a close contact with the person in question, like dancing or kissing, or any other form of close contact, then, yes, I can consider the possibility that Tyrion wouldn't notice Septa Lemore's eyes since it's is already established that purple eyes are a bit trick to identify. Otherwise, it was a cheap trick from GRRM.

Disclaimer: Catelyn thinking about Ashara Dayne's "violet eyes" doesn't count to me, because her knowledge appears to come from a second or third source. Ashara's Dayne eyes are purple, not violet.

[Mithras]

And you saying it a million times some how makes it true? Damn, if I'd known I'd be posting more often. The problem here is there is no eye color remarked on for Septa Lemore. We have nothing to judge her identity on regarding her eye color and that's how the author wanted it.

There is no problem here.

He doesn’t like Ned. The squire seemed nice enough to Arya; maybe a little shy, but good-natured. She had always heard that Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey.

In George's literature, a Dayne cannot be introduced without mentioning the eye color. It is as simple as that.

Ergo, Lemore is not Ashara or any other secret Targaryen for that matter.

[SFDanny]

Marcel, a nicer, more decent response I couldn't have asked for. Thank you. I will certainly look forward to reading more of your posts. You are a gentlemen and a scholar, Ser!

[Marcel]

There is no problem here.

He doesn’t like Ned. The squire seemed nice enough to Arya; maybe a little shy, but good-natured. She had always heard that Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey.

In George's literature, a Dayne cannot be introduced without mentioning the eye color. It is as simple as that.

Ergo, Lemore is not Ashara or any other secret Targaryen for that matter.

I thought about this stretch too, but I always thought that Arya was very close to Edric Dayne in this conversation.