Septa Lemore is?

[Ygrain]

Your view of lameness isn't shared by everyone. I don't think eye color is the same as your analogy. Ignoring or not noticing the color of a person's eyes is in no way comparable to a blood stained hand. People often cannot recall eye color. Unfortunately many men do not even make eye contact with women, but focus on other parts of a woman's body. A fact Martin makes use of in his recently released spoiler chapter. Tyrion can probably recall details of the shape of Lemore's breasts, but he may not have concentrated on looking her in the eyes. He wouldn't be the first man to do so. So that part of it is not unbelievable.

If he does notice her eye color, why then is it "lame" for the author to not note it for the reader, especially if it is a clue he doesn't want the reader to have at that point? We don't know that Tyrion knows anything about Ashara's appearance and would mark the significance of her eye color as a clue, but we as readers know it from other sources, so why give the reader a heads up when he's not ready to do so?

Because it was the author who made Ashara's eyes special and remarkable. You cannot give a character a special feature and then conceal their identity from the reader by not referencing it in any way, that's just bad writing.

Also, the argument of Tyrion or men in general being obsessed with other features as an excuse for not noticing eyes has got quite old. Must I indeed re-post the passage of Tyrion watching Lemore closely and wondering about her identity?

[SFDanny]

There is no problem here.

He doesn’t like Ned. The squire seemed nice enough to Arya; maybe a little shy, but good-natured. She had always heard that Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey.

In George's literature, a Dayne cannot be introduced without mentioning the eye color. It is as simple as that.

Ergo, Lemore is not Ashara or any other secret Targaryen for that matter.

Do we have an eye color for Ser Arthur? We see him in Ned's dream, but I don't seem to recall an eye color. Let me look ... no, no eye color. Perhaps Ned wasn't focusing on his eye color. I'm not inclined to accept your maxim as true. Even if Ned did notice his eye color, the author may be wanting us to focus on other things than that in the Tower of Joy sequence. So too, the author may want us to focus on other things in the Tyrion-Lemore encounters.

[Marcel]

Marcel, a nicer, more decent response I couldn't have asked for. Thank you. I will certainly look forward to reading more of your posts. You are a gentlemen and a scholar, Ser!

Thank you very much, and since it's already established that I regard you an intelligent person, perhaps you can answer something to me. I noticed in your signature that Aerys made Viserys his heir after Rhaegar's death - is that considered cannonic?

I'm trying to put together a theory about whether Daenerys is going crazy or not but it would fall apart if (F) Aegon was legitimate. If Viserys was named heir of Aerys, the question of (F) Aegon's legitimacy loses relevance. So if Viserys had been named heir is crucial for me.

[SFDanny]

Because it was the author who made Ashara's eyes special and remarkable. You cannot give a character a special feature and then conceal their identity from the reader by not referencing it in any way, that's just bad writing.

Also, the argument of Tyrion or men in general being obsessed with other features as an excuse for not noticing eyes has got quite old. Must I indeed re-post the passage of Tyrion watching Lemore closely and wondering about her identity?

No, I read your post and showed why I disagree with it. You don't have to agree with mine by any means. I can repost my arguments too if you like, but I get the impression you don't want to really listen to any of the points I make. Or am I reading that wrong?

[SFDanny]

Thank you very much, and since it's already established that I regard you an intelligent person, perhaps you can answer something to me. I noticed in your signature that Aerys made Viserys his heir after Rhaegar's death - is that considered cannonic?

I'm trying to put together a theory about whether Daenerys is going crazy or not but it would fall apart if (F) Aegon was legitimate. If Viserys was named heir of Aerys, the question of (F) Aegon's legitimacy loses relevance. So if Viserys had been named heir is crucial for me.

It is canon in the sense it is part of The World of Ice & Fire. One should always look at anything published in the series with view of where it is coming from, and this is no different. I think this new information is very important in evaluating the conduct of the three Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. If you get a chance read the links I have in my signature and let me know what you think. Always interested in informed opinions.

[Mithras]

“Can I have a sword to run them off with?” Egg asked. He had blue eyes, Dunk saw, very dark, almost purple. His bald head made them seem huge, somehow.

This was before the revelation of Egg's true identity.

By then, the two younger knights had come trotting back to see what had delayed their party. “There you are, Gormy,” called the rider on the black, a young man lean and lithe, with a comely, clean-shaven face and fine features. Black hair fell shining to his collar. His doublet was made of dark blue silk edged in gold satin. Across his chest an engrailed cross had been embroidered in gold thread, with a golden fiddle in the first and third quarters, a golden sword in the second and the fourth. His eyes caught the deep blue of his doublet and sparkled with amusement.

This was the first time Dunk saw the Fiddler (who was actually Daemon II). And his eyes were actually purple but his blue dressing was hiding it.

At the high table, the man who’d called himself the Fiddler turned to smile at him. He had donned a purple tunic for the feast, Dunk saw. Purple, to bring out the color of his eyes.

Here, the true color of his eyes was brought out by his purple tunic.

“Your dreams don’t lie,” said Dunk, “but you do. John is not your true name, is it?”

“No.” The Fiddler’s eyes sparkled with mischief. He has Egg’s eyes.

This is the first time Dunk realized that The Fiddler was actually a Blackfyre.

This beardless boy could have any maiden in the Seven Kingdoms, blue hair or no. Those eyes of his would melt them. Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father’s eyes were pale, the son’s were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple.

This was before Tyrion learned who Young Griff actually was (or claimed to be).

If Lemore was Ashara, George would definitely make Tyrion note that she had "blue eyes so dark they looked almost purple".

[SFDanny]

Mithras, did I miss your response on Ser Arthur's eye color? I thought you said every time a Dayne was introduced we are told his eye color? Was I not reading your post correctly? Or did I miss where Ned mentions it?

[Mithras]

Mithras, did I miss your response on Ser Arthur's eye color? I thought you said every time a Dayne was introduced we are told his eye color? Was I not reading your post correctly? Or did I miss where Ned mentions it?

Arthur Dayne was introduced as Arthur Dayne in Ned's dream. He was not hiding his identity like the others were and Lemore is.

[SFDanny]

What other Daynes are hiding their identity again? Let's leave out Targaryens like Egg because we aren't discussing Targaryens are we? We are talking about a possible hidden Dayne, Ned Dayne isn't hidden and his eyes are described. Ashara isn't hiding at Harrenhal and her eyes are described. Ser Gerold Dayne is not hiding his identity and his eye color is noted. But when Ser Arthur is described by Ned, who knows who he is so Ser Arthur isn't hiding either, then his eyes are not described. Not only do I note an incredibly small sample size on which to make sweeping generalizations, but I don't see a pattern. One quarter of our sample has no description; three quarters has a description. Obviously, you are mistaken when you say the following:

In George's literature, a Dayne cannot be introduced without mentioning the eye color. It is as simple as that.

Or I'm mistaken because I've overlooked Ser Arthur's eye color. Which is it, Mithras?

Sorry, going to bed. I'll look for a response in the morning

[Ygrain]

No, I read your post and showed why I disagree with it. You don't have to agree with mine by any means. I can repost my arguments too if you like, but I get the impression you don't want to really listen to any of the points I make. Or am I reading that wrong?

I'm not talking about reposting arguments but about a piece of text which says, black on white, that Tyrion watches Lemore closely and without lecherous intent, hence the argument that he never notices her eyes because he is occupied with her other features is fallacious.

[Ygrain]

No, I read your post and showed why I disagree with it. You don't have to agree with mine by any means. I can repost my arguments too if you like, but I get the impression you don't want to really listen to any of the points I make. Or am I reading that wrong?

I'm not talking about reposting arguments but about a piece of text which says, black on white, that Tyrion watches Lemore closely and without lecherous intent, hence the argument that he never notices her eyes because he is occupied with her other features is fallacious.

[Mithras]

What other Daynes are hiding their identity again? Let's leave out Targaryens like Egg because we aren't discussing Targaryens are we? We are talking about a possible hidden Dayne, Ned Dayne isn't hidden and his eyes are described. Ashara isn't hiding at Harrenhal and her eyes are described. Ser Gerold Dayne is not hiding his identity and his eye color is noted. But when Ser Arthur is described by Ned, who knows who he is so Ser Arthur isn't hiding either, then his eyes are not described. Not only do I note an incredibly small sample size on which to make sweeping generalizations, but I don't see a pattern. One quarter of our sample has no description; three quarters has a description. Obviously, your are mistaken when you say the following:

Or I'm mistaken because I've overlooked Ser Arthur's eye color. Which is it, Mithras?

Ned's dream is a dream and not necessarily an absolutely accurate one. That makes it a clear exception.

Arthur was not a person hiding his identity or at least unknown to the POV character at the moment of introduction like the others. Lemore is a person who hides her real identity. If George designed her to be Ashara, then he should have dropped some hints for this case because he is a good writer. There is no textual evidence suggesting that Ashara is Lemore. If Lemore had dark blue eyes that looked almost purple, then I would agree that there was textual evidence to suggest that Lemore is Ashara. But even at such a case (i.e. with Lemore having purpleish blue eyes being mentioned in the text), a more plausible theory would be that Lemore is the mother of fAegon.

[RedShirt47]

Tyrion is actively pondering the identity of Lemore, he looks at her and tries to figure out who this woman is. Purple eyes, whilst not incredibly rare are still note worthy. Immediately Tyrion should have had thoughts of Targaryens or maybe Daynes or other Valyrian families. This one clue should have sparked a train of thought along these lines.
But he does not consider any of these possibilities. The eye colour should have narrowed down his list of possibilities considerably. So the only reason this did not happen is because Lemore's eyes were not note worthy.

How is Ashara linked to Varys, Illyrio or the Golden Company? What is her relevance to this little conspiracy?
I don't see how Ashara fits into this whole scheme from a narrative perspective. What is the point of having Ashara (as apposed to any other high born lady) in this plot?
Seems to me it's a case of linking two names simply because they're there.

Why would Varys allow a well known person with distinctive looks from a major house be part of a discreet conspiracy? Even if it's in Essos, having such a person as part of the plan adds unnecessary risk.

Ashara likely knows of Jon's parentage, which is why GRRM couldn't include her in the series. Would she keep this secret from his "brother" and guardian? JonCon is protecting one of Rhaegar's sons, surely he'd want to protect any others too. Or at least even mention him.

Lemore is past her middle years, Ashara would be just before or in her middle years.
Lemore is handsome, Ashara is beautiful.
Lemore eyes are unremarkable, Ashara's are distinctive.

Of all the candidates put forward I place Ashara at the bottom of the list.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Tyrion failing to mention Septa Lemore's purple eyes, if she is Ashara Dayne, is an insurmountable difficulty to me. Unless we accept the fact that GRRM deliberately suppressed information that should have been provided in that context, I do not see how to support the argument that Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne.

I think she's the Mad Maid, but let's assume for a moment that she's Ashara, and that The George purposely avoided having Tyrion describe her eyes. Let's say just before or just after the big reveal The George has Tyrion remark on her eyes. Would that be sufficient?

[Ygrain]

Tyrion is actively pondering the identity of Lemore, he looks at her and tries to figure out who this woman is. Purple eyes, whilst not incredibly rare are still note worthy. Immediately Tyrion should have had thoughts of Targaryens or maybe Daynes or other Valyrian families. This one clue should have sparked a train of thought along these lines.

But he does not consider any of these possibilities. The eye colour should have narrowed down his list of possibilities considerably. So the only reason this did not happen is because Lemore's eyes were not note worthy.

Not just this. A purple-eyed woman travels with a purple-eyed kid who is concealing his looks - that alone is something that a bright mind like Tyrion's should take into consideration. Yet, not a trace.

I think she's the Mad Maid, but let's assume for a moment that she's Ashara, and that The George purposely avoided having Tyrion describe her eyes. Let's say just before or just after the big reveal The George has Tyrion remark on her eyes. Would that be sufficient?

Absolutely not, unless it came with a very good explanation why the fact wasn't noted earlier.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You only said you were wrong after being shown you were wrong repeatedly, and you were intellectually dishonest by basing so much of your argument on something that you did not know to be true. If you had admitted you were wrong when you were first told that there were women under 40 referred to as handsome, then I'd have no grounds to criticize your poor debate skills. The fact you held onto that untruth and called other people mistaken for disagreeing with it shows that you are very immature.

Shown repeatedly? I admitted that I was wrong only after there were quotes from the text that I was wrong.

I am still waiting for your quotes that she is Ashara.

I'm assuming you mean Martin said Ashara was 30, right? Sorry, but I'm away from home right now, but I remember the Martin quote differently. Doesn't he respond to a question about Howland Reed by saying he is in his thirties, and then respond to the follow up question about Ashara's age with "Ditto"? Meaning anywhere from 30-39? Or am I missing a quote?

edit: here is the SSM in question.

Note it says thirties, not thirty. As in from 30 years old to 39 years old as a range. Do you have anything that says different?

This SSM is from March 27, 2002 so it's after A Storm of Swords was published, putting the remarks in the context of year 299 or 300 AC. Which means if Ashara is Ned's age she turns 37 in 300, and if she is Brandon's age she turns 38 in 300. So the idea that makes Septa Lemore somehow too old to be Ashara is absurd. As I said before, Lemore has lived the last 12 years or so on a riverboat upon the Rhoyne. She hasn't lived the life of a pampered aristocratic lady of Westeros, but has been exposed to a much harsher existence. That Tyrion thinks she is over 40 in no way indicates that she can't be Ashara. It's a talking point that makes no sense.

Yada yada yada he said thirties and Tyrion a man who spent most of his life having sex with a woman said that she was past forties.

Mithras, did I miss your response on Ser Arthur's eye color? I thought you said every time a Dayne was introduced we are told his eye color? Was I not reading your post correctly? Or did I miss where Ned mentions it?B

Because when someone who happens to be the best freaking warrior, attacks you with a massive sword the first thing you do is to notice his eye colour?

[Marcel]

I think she's the Mad Maid, but let's assume for a moment that she's Ashara, and that The George purposely avoided having Tyrion describe her eyes. Let's say just before or just after the big reveal The George has Tyrion remark on her eyes. Would that be sufficient?

No, it wouldn't, because GRRM left enough clues in the plot that made us able to deduct important future developments (and I'm not refering only to R + L = J), which means that he respects the readers he has. Thus, I see no reason for him to omit as hard such detail about the identity of Septa Lemore, even if she is Ashara Dayne. Anyway, I'm willing to rethink this question regarding her eyes. I intend to reread the passages where purple eyes are described and until then I don't think I can make any other significant contribution to this discussion.

[AllOfTheHours]

I think she's the Mad Maid, but let's assume for a moment that she's Ashara, and that The George purposely avoided having Tyrion describe her eyes. Let's say just before or just after the big reveal The George has Tyrion remark on her eyes. Would that be sufficient?

This is something I wonder about too. If he had said her eyes were purple from the get-go, that would be a major hint that Septa Lemore = Ashara. If he had said her eyes were brown or blue or hazel from the get-go, it would mean that Septa Lemore =/= Ashara.

So not having her eye color noted doesn't support nor does it really disprove who she is. In Essos, we know whores with Valyrian looks are much more common than in Westeros. So if someone had purple eyes in Essos. from first glance, it still wouldn't be very likely that she's a Dayne from Westeros. But, since we know she is Westerosi and a "septa" in her 30's who has had a child, having purple eyes would really shrink the possible candidate pool of who she is.

IMO, if Tyrion didn't comment on her eyes, but she does have purple eyes/is Ashara, the only real excuse I could see GRRM using is that they are still not as interesting/remarkable as Tyrion's own. He has super rare heterochromia, so if he noticed her eyes, the idea that he must find them "haunting," or strange, or unforgettably unique (like some other people have), is arguable since his own eyes are more remarkable/interesting. So the threshold to being amazed by eye color is higher for Tyrion than Ned or Barriston. (The obvious exception to this reasoning would be that he deduced that YG was Aegon partially because his eyes provided evidence. But I guess, it could be said that if he theorized that Lemore was Ashara Dayne he could but the pieces together, but until he has a working theory to prove/disprove he couldn't guess the meaning of her eyes?) It's a weaker excuse, but if GRRM played it that way I could see it working out okay. :dunno:

[Taenqyrhae]

Lemore is handsome, Ashara is beautiful.

Catelyn was beautiful during the years before Ashara supposedly killed herself. Now she's handsome. Ashara would be only a couple of years older than Catelyn.

I've noticed through the years that women who are exceedingly beautiful when they are young become much less attractive as they age, while often women who are not particularly pretty as young girls grow into better looks in their later years. I don't think this is coincidence, I have a very good explanation for it, based on my old friend Amanda.

I knew Amanda since middle school. When she was 12, she was, without a doubt, the most beautiful girl in the school. Nobody would guess that she was only 12 and it got a lot of high school guys in trouble - if someone told you 12 year old Amanda was 18, you wouldn't doubt it. This was because of her facial features, not body development - there were plenty of girls in middle school more physically developed but you could see they were young in their faces.

But people's noses grow throughout their lives, and the striking features that made Amanda look several years older than she actually was continued to evolve over the years. By the time I graduated high school she was still pretty, but not particularly exceptional. My other friend Amy, who had a kind of piggish little nose and a funny looking face at 12 had a normal looking nose by the time she was 18 and was arguably a lot prettier than Amanda.

Now that we are all in our early 40s, nobody would say Amanda was pretty. She has a big hook nose and her strong features became so strong they appear mannish. Amy looks damn good for a 40 year old, but not as pretty as my wife - and I've seen pictures of my wife at that age and she would have been the least pretty of the three at the time. I've seen this time and again, the kind of features that make a young woman look mature and pretty will almost always morph into something much less attractive later in adulthood. It comes up a lot with women of middle eastern, Indian, or Italian descent - they are extremely pretty in their teen years, but by the time they are 30 they have big hook noses (and often moustaches but that's not really relevant).

(Aging has worked out well for me, though. As a young guy I was maybe a little above average in looks, now in my 40s I'm probably the most attractive man amongst my peers and I am frequently hit on by much younger women.)

So it makes perfect sense that a lady who as described as being exceedingly beautiful in their teen years would be merely "handsome" by the time they are in their early 40s. I would actually be surprised if a woman described as beautiful at 16 was still seen as beautiful at 40.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Catelyn was beautiful during the years before Ashara supposedly killed herself. Now she's handsome. Ashara would be only a couple of years older than Catelyn.

Why? Why she cannot be a couple of years younger? After all the only thing that we know for sure is that she would be in her 30s. Why she wouldn't be in her early 30s?