Septa Lemore is?

[rozemarijn]

A+J=T is true. Mark my words.

It is not, mark my words.

I have another Ashara possibility. You know how Rhaegar was mad about prophecy? Link that to the dreams of the Targaryen daughter in Valyria who made them all rush to Westeros. There is more in that theory then doom. I honestly think this story is about the fight between two Gods as well and Valyria's doom was just an 1-1. My guess is Rhaegar sincerely believed two things: the three heads of the dragon as a saviour and the fact that there should be a Targaryen upon the throne to keep the others away. Add to that some obession with the song/pact of Ice and Fire.

So if Rhaegar believes it, Lyanna does so probably and so, do the Daynes (with Arthur, the purple eyes and the sword of the morning). When Lyanna lies dying she probably cares for her son but she also cares about the prophecy, so she might have pulled Eddard into some secret vague society/plan to fight the others.

Problem: Eddard does not really believe the Wild Walkers are coming back.

[RedShirt47]

Apart from them both being women between 30 and 50, both have given birth, both are somewhat attractive and both are educated enough to be able to mentor a child in The Faith, is there a single hint, clue, suggestion or scrap of evidence that points to Lemore being Ashara. I listed my reason why I think she is not. Can someone provide some evidence (that doesn't match a few thousand other women) to say why you think she IS Ashara?

Where is the blue rose, the loaded remark, historical precedence? What pointed people to this theory in the first place?

[Taenqyrhae]

A+J=T could go either way, it's certainly an out for GRRM's favourite character to escape the curse of the kinslayer.

Is it, though? (not a sarcastic question) I'm not sure how close a relation has to be for it to be considered kinslaying. Even if Tywin was not Tyrion's father, he would still be his cousin.

[lojzelote]

Oh my god. I've grown to despise the Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne theory. It has nothing to back it, nothing whatsoever, aside of the need some people feel to connect her to Ashara due to the fact Ashara's body was never found after she jumped off a tower into the sea... which I don't find suspicious personally... but had she lived and should she pop out in the narrative, I'm dead certain she's not Septa Lemore unless GRRM, the master of clues, suddenly turned into a big cheater.

[Taenqyrhae]

Apart from them both being women between 30 and 50, both have given birth, both are somewhat attractive and both are educated enough to be able to mentor a child in The Faith, is there a single hint, clue, suggestion or scrap of evidence that points to Lemore being Ashara. I listed my reason why I think she is not. Can someone provide some evidence (that doesn't match a few thousand other women) to say why you think she IS Ashara?

Where is the blue rose, the loaded remark, historical precedence? What pointed people to this theory in the first place?

Lemore is an avid swimmer, Ashara disappeared by diving into water. Both had brown hair, too. It's not nearly enough for proof (which is why I am not a proponent of Lemore=Ashara, just consider it a legit possibility), but it is something.

[anonnyscouse]

Is it, though? (not a sarcastic question) I'm not sure how close a relation has to be for it to be considered kinslaying. Even if Tywin was not Tyrion's father, he would still be his cousin.

Rhaegar was Robert's cousin and was not considered a kinslayer. Given the intermarriage between major Westerosi (especially southron) families, killing cousins is not likely to be uncommon in times of conflict. To me kinslaying follows a similar rule as incest for determining kin (brother/sister/mother/father/son/daughter).

[LordQorgyle]

If Aerys is Tyrion father is the worst thing George can do it mess with all the dynamic betwwen Tyrion and his family

[Taenqyrhae]

Rhaegar was Robert's cousin and was not considered a kinslayer. Given the intermarriage between major Westerosi (especially southron) families, killing cousins is not likely to be uncommon in times of conflict. To me kinslaying follows a similar rule as incest for determining kin (brother/sister/mother/father/son/daughter).

Makes sense to me! I like the idea of tying it to what's considered incest.

If you can create legitimate life with someone, you can also end their life without being cursed.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I would dispute this, Tyrion has been inaccurate regarding ages before. We know that Tyrion thinks she is over 40.

Which ages did Tyrion guess incorrectly? Perhaps Tyrion was not misjudging Jon's age. Perhaps he was just toying with him? Consider the context. Jon was asking Tyrion why he reads so much and Tyrion set about to educate him. He started by asking him, "You're what, about 12?" It seemed to me that Tyrion was being sarcastic. But if you disagree then maybe Tyrion should get a pass as to guessing Jon's age right after the Lannisters had visited Winterfell, since Joffrey was 12 but taller than Jon and Robb. As to Aegon, Tyrion guessed him to be 15 or 16, just a year or so younger than Jon. Unless you believe that Aegon is who Aegon thinks he is, we don't have any reason to doubt Tyrion's guess do we? The George had Tyrion guess at Aegon's age to alert the reader that all was not as it seems. Aegon looks to be about 15 or 16. And Lemore looks to be past 40, but still mighty fine.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Lemore=Ashara is at the same level of confirmation bias as Howland Reed=High Sparrow and A+J=T.

Hey now... I'm digging A+J=T...

[Greymoon]

Lemore is an avid swimmer, Ashara disappeared by diving into water. Both had brown hair, too. It's not nearly enough for proof (which is why I am not a proponent of Lemore=Ashara, just consider it a legit possibility), but it is something.

Ashara didn't 'dive' into the water, she jumped off a tower, and as far as we know, she was no professional, not even a hobby, cliff diver. We don't know how high the tower is, but if she intended to die from the jump it was probably high enough. The potential for death, serious injury to the spine, concussion, or for simply being knocked out from the shock would have been extremely high.

Even if only knocked out, she'd have swallowed half the sea before she regained her bearings, and drowned. And isn't the Palestone Tower located on cliffs, anyway? So that add the possibility that Ashara landed on cliffs, before her body was carried away by the water. We only know that her body wasn't 'recovered' -- we don't know who witnesses the event, and what the circumstances were.

Cliff diving from any height can't be called safe -- it's one of the most dangerous extreme sports. In fact, official tourism sites of popular cliff diving destinations don't promote the activity.

Cliff diving puts tremendous stresses on your body. If you jump from 20 feet (6 meters) above the water, you'll hit the water at 25 mph (40 kph) -- the impact is strong enough to compress your spine, break bones or give you a concussion [source: Glen Canyon Natural History Association]. But that's only if you enter feet-first in a straight, vertical line -- a horizontal, or "pancake," landing is like hitting concrete. Halving the height of the jump to 10 feet (3 meters), as mentioned earlier, reduces your speed of impact to 17 mph (27 kph), and even cars sustain damage when hit at that speed.

Because of the high potential for injury, the World High Diving Federation recommends that no one dive from 20 meters (65.5 feet) or higher unless there are professional rescue scuba divers stationed in the water [source: World High Diving Federation]. Bruises, dislocated joints, broken bones, compressed spine, injured discs, paralysis and death are among the injuries that cliff divers experience.

http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/water-sports/cliff-diving3.htm

[aryagonnakill#2]

The reason a lot of people believe Ashara could be Lemore is probably due to a lack of other options, and the fair presumption that she has a hidden identity. Dorans wife makes no sense based on Dorans actions, and Wenda the White Fawn, while possible is not a character most readers would even remember existed. I'm not saying its definite, I really don't know who she is, but it is certainly possible.

[Marcel]

If Aerys is Tyrion father is the worst thing George can do it mess with all the dynamic betwwen Tyrion and his family

And if he never find it out?

[Marcel]

Ashara didn't 'dive' into the water, she jumped off a tower, and as far as we know, she was no professional, not even a hobby, cliff diver. We don't know how high the tower is, but if she intended to die from the jump it was probably high enough. The potential for death, serious injury to the spine, concussion, or for simply being knocked out from the shock would have been extremely high.

Even if only knocked out, she'd have swallowed half the sea before she regained her bearings, and drowned. And isn't the Palestone Tower located on cliffs, anyway? So that add the possibility that Ashara landed on cliffs, before her body was carried away by the water. We only know that her body wasn't 'recovered' -- we don't know who witnesses the event, and what the circumstances were.

http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/water-sports/cliff-diving3.htm

But what if the story about her leap from the tower is a lie?

[Taenqyrhae]

Ashara didn't 'dive' into the water, she jumped off a tower, and as far as we know, she was no professional, not even a hobby, cliff diver. We don't know how high the tower is, but if she intended to die from the jump it was probably high enough. The potential for death, serious injury to the spine, concussion, or for simply being knocked out from the shock would have been extremely high.

Even if only knocked out, she'd have swallowed half the sea before she regained her bearings, and drowned. And isn't the Palestone Tower located on cliffs, anyway? So that add the possibility that Ashara landed on cliffs, before her body was carried away by the water. We only know that her body wasn't 'recovered' -- we don't know who witnesses the event, and what the circumstances were.

http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/water-sports/cliff-diving3.htm

As you said, we don't know if the story of how she disappeared is even true. And the cliff diving link implies that dives from as little as 3 meters are dangerous, but Olympic divers jump from 10 meter high diving platforms ALL THE TIME and hardly ever get injured unless they hit something other than the water. People who specialize and train in diving can do even more amazing feats. Professor Splash dove from over 11 meters into water only 30 CENTIMETERS deep without being injured. Roy Fransen dove over 33 meters into water less than 3 meters deep without being injured. Dana Kunze has dived from a height of over 50 meters five times without injury. And people have survived unintentional falls from even greater heights into water.

[LordQorgyle]

Lool Ashara is not a professional diver from the XXI century

[LordQorgyle]

Marcel for me Tyrion is Tywin's only son like Genna said..He is the only one who thinks like him

I would prefer that the twins are from Aerys and Tyrion from Tywin

[Taenqyrhae]

Lool Ashara is not a professional diver from the XXI century

High diving is not a 21st century invention, and not all those records were set in the 21st century.

Ashara was a noblewoman who lived near the sea. IF she had an interest into diving into water from heights, she would have had plenty of time to practice it. Maybe she started out only diving 10 meters into water when she was very young, and as she got older and bolder started trying it from increasingly greater heights until she had perfected the correct way to enter the water.

Perhaps she did not intend to fake her death, and dove from a great height, and after jumping her survival instincts made her go into the pose she perfected for recreational diving. Surviving a dive from a height she had never before attempted, she became convinced that the Seven wanted her to live and became a septa...

[Ygrain]

Exactly, Tyrion is thinking "who is she and why is she her?". He's not really paying attention to her appearance. He didn't a take serious notice of Griff and Young Griff's appearance until he had already realized they were lying about who they were. Aside from seeing the purple in Young Griff's eyes (which he barely noticed) , Tyrion's suspicions rise because they're behavior and back story didn't add up.

Please, be so kind and explain how "Tyrion watched her closely" brought you to that conclusion, because I sure as hell don't get it.

Apart from them both being women between 30 and 50, both have given birth, both are somewhat attractive and both are educated enough to be able to mentor a child in The Faith, is there a single hint, clue, suggestion or scrap of evidence that points to Lemore being Ashara. I listed my reason why I think she is not. Can someone provide some evidence (that doesn't match a few thousand other women) to say why you think she IS Ashara?

Where is the blue rose, the loaded remark, historical precedence? What pointed people to this theory in the first place?

Both are dark-haired and supposedly dead people are found out to be alive all the time in GRRMth (which, for me, is the biggest turn-off for the theory. It's time someone stayed dead eventually)

As you said, we don't know if the story of how she disappeared is even true. And the cliff diving link implies that dives from as little as 3 meters are dangerous, but Olympic divers jump from 10 meter high diving platforms ALL THE TIME and hardly ever get injured unless they hit something other than the water. People who specialize and train in diving can do even more amazing feats. Professor Splash dove from over 11 meters into water only 30 CENTIMETERS deep without being injured. Roy Fransen dove over 33 meters into water less than 3 meters deep without being injured. Dana Kunze has dived from a height of over 50 meters five times without injury. And people have survived unintentional falls from even greater heights into water.

The bolded part is crucial here because, you know, it's not like Olympic divers do not specialise and train for their feats. Untrained people could easily get themselves hurt or even killed. Since you seem to be fond of personal examples, my mother dived from a high platform once, and the problems she had with a dislocated hernia all her adult life are very much tied to that incident which she described as "nearly breaking her back".

[Ygrain]

Oh, my. Westerosi high-dive hobby.

High time this thread was locked finally.