Rethinking Romance: Love Stories of ASOIAF

[Summerisle Dog]

Great essays RhaenysBalerion! There's a lot of information about how their relationship is more than what it seems. The symbol and motif collection is great too. I should look at that whenever I plan to reread Dany's chapters.

Great point, meant to comment on this earlier.

And found some wording similarities here:

I never thought about the comparisons between Dany and Drogo to Sandor and Sansa before. I can't wait for more comparisons and stories.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Thank you for those essays I've really enjoyed reading them. Having been somewhat absent of late its taken me a good fortnight to catch up on this thread and read the PTP thread which I had been wanting to get into.

The Dany Drogo essays have been fantastic and really insightful.

Its crossed my mind that Drogo must have had a fascination with Westerossi culture to have been approached by Illyrio to wed Danaerys.

He likes drinking Westeros wine we are told, and he clearly wanted this exotic foreign wife. Plus his manse in Pentos is very alien to the Dothraki way, do other Khals have homes in the free cities? hmmm. He must have seemed a lot more likely to go for the plan than other war lords would. Its would seem he knew to ask his new bride rather than go about it the Dothraki way. at least that first time, and Dany figuired out the way to take some power back when she took him out to under the stars and rode him for all to see. Does this strike others as a domination thing? she's showing the Khalisar that she can ride their Khal, that she can dominate him and take HER pleasure from him.After all the Dothraki fashion of sex is rear entry yes? which is generally accepted to be about domination and dehumanising the woman. Most people associate it with degradation of the female, using terms such as "doggy style" is pretty de humanising, making the sex all about animalistic desire, the position completely bypasses the external parts of the clitoris which limits female enjoyment, unless the man chooses to stimulate her digitally.

Rear entry is also associated with anal sex which again is usually seen as being about power play domination and subservience. imagery of bending someone over and fucking them is used to convey using someone, abusing them, getting one over on them, screwing someone over, etc. Its used to convey weakness and of course emasculation.

Whereas woman on top conjures up the idea of the woman being in control, she is taking the man into her rather than receiving him, she is free to control the pace and depth of the love making, she can rock back and forth to stimulate her clitoris herself and use her own hands to ensure she gets enough clitoral stimulus to orgasm. The man is often extremely aroused during this position, experiencing powerful orgasm while being dominated by the female. Who can pin his arms down lean forward and smother his face with her body and generally is in a position of control and power over him. Dany does this in front of Drogo's subjects..She takes him out and shows them all and him who is boss.

[Le Cygne]

Vicerys had a grip on her, she was afraid of showing her feelings to Drogo. But once she kicked Vicerys to the curb, she told Drogo, this is the way it's going to be, and he followed her! And riding the silver, that was his gift to her, and it set her free. I love the wording here (Daario called out her name, too, nice touch):

Long after the moon had risen, they sat together, talking. That night, when Khal Drogo came, Dany was waiting for him. He stood in the door of her tent and looked at her with surprise. She rose slowly and opened her sleeping silks and let them fall to the ground. This night we must go outside, my lord, she told him, for the Dothraki believed that all things of importance in a mans life must be done beneath the open sky.

Khal Drogo followed her out into the moonlight, the bells in his hair tinkling softly. A few yards from her tent was a bed of soft grass, and it was there that Dany drew him down. When he tried to turn her over, she put a hand on his chest. "No," she said. "This night I would look on your face."

There is no privacy in the heart of the khalasar. Dany felt the eyes on her as she undressed him, heard the soft voices as she did the things that Doreah had told her to do. It was nothing to her. Was she not khaleesi? His were the only eyes that mattered, and when she mounted him she saw something there that she had never seen before. She rode him as fiercely as ever she had ridden her silver, and when the moment of his pleasure came, Khal Drogo called out her name.

I never thought about the comparisons between Dany and Drogo to Sandor and Sansa before. I can't wait for more comparisons and stories.

I love the way he words things the same way across the romances!

Moved the index forward...

[Annara Snow]

Thank you for those essays I've really enjoyed reading them. Having been somewhat absent of late its taken me a good fortnight to catch up on this thread and read the PTP thread which I had been wanting to get into.

The Dany Drogo essays have been fantastic and really insightful.

Its crossed my mind that Drogo must have had a fascination with Westerossi culture to have been approached by Illyrio to wed Danaerys.

He likes drinking Westeros wine we are told, and he clearly wanted this exotic foreign wife. Plus his manse in Pentos is very alien to the Dothraki way, do other Khals have homes in the free cities? hmmm. He must have seemed a lot more likely to go for the plan than other war lords would. Its would seem he knew to ask his new bride rather than go about it the Dothraki way. at least that first time, and Dany figuired out the way to take some power back when she took him out to under the stars and rode him for all to see. Does this strike others as a domination thing? she's showing the Khalisar that she can ride their Khal, that she can dominate him and take HER pleasure from him.After all the Dothraki fashion of sex is rear entry yes? which is generally accepted to be about domination and dehumanising the woman. Most people associate it with degradation of the female, using terms such as "doggy style" is pretty de humanising, making the sex all about animalistic desire, the position completely bypasses the external parts of the clitoris which limits female enjoyment, unless the man chooses to stimulate her digitally.

Rear entry is also associated with anal sex which again is usually seen as being about power play domination and subservience. imagery of bending someone over and fucking them is used to convey using someone, abusing them, getting one over on them, screwing someone over, etc. Its used to convey weakness and of course emasculation.

Whereas woman on top conjures up the idea of the woman being in control, she is taking the man into her rather than receiving him, she is free to control the pace and depth of the love making, she can rock back and forth to stimulate her clitoris herself and use her own hands to ensure she gets enough clitoral stimulus to orgasm. The man is often extremely aroused during this position, experiencing powerful orgasm while being dominated by the female. Who can pin his arms down lean forward and smother his face with her body and generally is in a position of control and power over him. Dany does this in front of Drogo's subjects..She takes him out and shows them all and him who is boss.

Actually, rear entry sex aka doggy style gets voted as one of women's favorite sex positions in every research I've ever seen. It's known for deep penetration and easier stimulation of the G-spot.

Furthermore, all this strikes me as a bunch of pretty bad stereotypes. The ideas that sex all about "domination" or that whoever is on top is the "dominant" one, or that people can only find pleasure if they are "dominant", are ridiculous. Especially since so many men and women enjoy being sexually "submissive", in the BDSM terms as well - putting that under quotation marks, since the "submission" is a pretend/fantasy one and only serves to give pleasure in a fantasy scenario. (Not that rear entry sex in itself has to be a mark of a "submissive" role.) The traditional stereotypes about certain types of sex being "degrading" may also be exciting to people who enjoy the feeling of breaking taboos.

Receiving anal sex is, of course, also something that quite a few people enjoy, men and women.

Overall, it all seems like a really stereotypical idea of sex and gender roles that is particularly propagated by straight men who think that, say, receiving anal sex makes one weak or submissive "like a woman", which is connected by many of the stereotypes and prejudices about gay men (to quote one movie in which a gay guy laughs at his straight friend about the straight guys' tendency to make a big deal about who is penetrating who; it also makes me think of The Sopranos, where Vito was judged even more harshly for being gay once his mobster buddies learned that he was not a "pitcher", i.e. that he was seen giving another man a blow job rather than receiving it; or about the prison hierarchy where men dominate other men by making them their "women" or "bitches").

It's one of the reasons why I was never a big fan of that storyline with Dany and Drogo. Though I guess one could say that she widened his horizons since the Dothraki only practiced one sexual position.

[SeanF]

The Weirdwood's Eyes. Drogo's fondness for life in Pentos suggests to me that the Dothraki threat to the free cities is a bit of a sham. Almost certainly, these rich city states could afford to dive off the Dothraki (as Tyrion suggests to Illyrio) . But, the profits from dealing in slaves with them are so enormous that it's far more lucrative just to give them protection money/manses/wine etc.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Thats kinda my point, The accepted white hetrosexual male assumptions about sex are being used.

Not for a minute saying I agree with the ideas, but one has to admit they are prevalent throughout our society.

I think personally they are being used in this story to convey a message about Dany & Drogo's relationship.

Personally love a bit of rear entry and hate being on top.

Its more about other peoples perceptions of sex than the actual reality. If that makes sense.

Its just something I've always got from that scene, personally. Yes I think it plays into the false assumptions and outdated ideas about sexuality, but I think its being used to convey a development within the story.

Wether or not western white male heterosexual stereotyping is true or not isn't what I was trying to get at. more that those stereotypes are being applied to this work of fiction.

GRRM gets it wrong in other areas too, such as Lysa Tully still breastfeeding being used to convey the idea she is unstable, cloying and over protective, unable to allow her son to grow up etc.

The reality of full term breastfeeding could not be further from the truth!

The fact that children who are given unrestricted access to breastfeeding until they self wean and who co sleep with their mother until they chose to leave the parental bed has been proven to result in all round more stable secure independent people is by the by. We all know the writers intention when he paints Lysa as he does. Fact is she was absolutely 100% doing what was best by her son in that regard. But the stereotype is used to great effect non the less.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Great point SeanF. There must be more to the Dothraki relationship with the free cities as you say, they could in fact easily see them off with a hired sell sword army or two. hmmmm.

[Le Cygne]

Probably more than a reflection of individual preferences, the emphasis was on Dany stating her preferences, and they both were happy. There was a lot of emphasis in the text on the eyes throughout their story, too, as a way to show they truly see the other person, so I think he was going for that. Face to face. "This night I would look on your face."

Just a reminder, the focus of this thread is the romantic aspects of the writing of these particular stories. If an interesting side discussion pops up, we ask that this please be taken to another thread.

[SeanF]

Probably more than a reflection of individual preferences, the emphasis was on Dany stating her preferences, and they both were happy. There was a lot of emphasis in the text on the eyes throughout their story, too, as a way to show they truly see the other person, so I think he was going for that. Face to face. "This night I would look on your face."

Just a reminder, the focus of this thread is the romantic aspects of the writing of these particular stories. If an interesting side discussion pops up, we ask that this

please be taken to another thread.

Sorry. I've done that before with this thread.

[Le Cygne]

No worries! :) Your thoughts are always good.

That was just for anyone dropping by, to keep the focus on romance and writing so we can get the rest of the stories in.

[DogLover]

Thats kinda my point, The accepted white hetrosexual male assumptions about sex are being used.

Not for a minute saying I agree with the ideas, but one has to admit they are prevalent throughout our society.

I think personally they are being used in this story to convey a message about Dany & Drogo's relationship.

Personally love a bit of rear entry and hate being on top.

Its more about other peoples perceptions of sex than the actual reality. If that makes sense.

Its just something I've always got from that scene, personally. Yes I think it plays into the false assumptions and outdated ideas about sexuality, but I think its being used to convey a development within the story.

Wether or not western white male heterosexual stereotyping is true or not isn't what I was trying to get at. more that those stereotypes are being applied to this work of fiction.

While I don't necessarily interpret Daenerys taking the top position as an intended act of domination, but rather an act that shifts the balance of power to a level playing field between the two of them, I do think there's some truth to this. Asha clearly enjoys the rape fantasy roleplay with Qarl, which is one of the most popular forms of sexual roleplay, especially among people who hold powerful and stressful positions, as Asha does, and want to temporary relinquish the sense of control and allow someone else to take charge. But soon after she takes the top position. I consider that GRRM's way of conveying that she's actually the one in charge.

Probably more than a reflection of individual preferences, the emphasis was on Dany stating her preferences, and they both were happy. There was a lot of emphasis in the text on the eyes throughout their story, too, as a way to show they truly see the other person, so I think he was going for that. Face to face. "This night I would look on your face."

Beside the fact the Drogo explicitly asks for Daenerys’s consent to go through with the wedding night, another significant moment proves that he treats and considers Daenerys as his equal. Every time Khal Drogo is described throughout the book, GRRM points out how he towered over everybody (Jorah, Viserys, Illyrio, his bloodriders, etc). The same thing happens now as well. “Drogo towered over her, as he towered over everyone.” Then, however, Drogo sits Daenerys on top of a large rock, while he himself sits on the ground thus making “their faces finally at a height.” It is only Daenerys whose face is ever at a height with Khal Drogo’s.

<snip>

While we have no information on in whatever position Daenerys lost her virginity on their wedding night, it is confirmed that during the settling-in era, Drogo always took her “from behind, Dothraki fashion” and that night was the first time Daenerys stepped out of the traditional Dotharki woman role for taking control during their intercourse by being on top. The moment is symbolic, as from this point on, Daenerys is in full control of her relationship with Drogo.

I agree that the emphasis on looking at one another is significant and think it illustrates the balancing of the power dynamics. And, while Daenerys may not be dominating Drogo, I do agree with RB that Daenerys taking the top position is very symbolic and intended to be so.

[RhaenysBee]

Thats kinda my point, The accepted white hetrosexual male assumptions about sex are being used.

Not for a minute saying I agree with the ideas, but one has to admit they are prevalent throughout our society.

I think personally they are being used in this story to convey a message about Dany & Drogo's relationship.

Personally love a bit of rear entry and hate being on top.

Its more about other peoples perceptions of sex than the actual reality. If that makes sense.

Its just something I've always got from that scene, personally. Yes I think it plays into the false assumptions and outdated ideas about sexuality, but I think its being used to convey a development within the story.

Wether or not western white male heterosexual stereotyping is true or not isn't what I was trying to get at. more that those stereotypes are being applied to this work of fiction.

GRRM gets it wrong in other areas too, such as Lysa Tully still breastfeeding being used to convey the idea she is unstable, cloying and over protective, unable to allow her son to grow up etc.

The reality of full term breastfeeding could not be further from the truth!

The fact that children who are given unrestricted access to breastfeeding until they self wean and who co sleep with their mother until they chose to leave the parental bed has been proven to result in all round more stable secure independent people is by the by. We all know the writers intention when he paints Lysa as he does. Fact is she was absolutely 100% doing what was best by her son in that regard. But the stereotype is used to great effect non the less.

This is mainly offtopic, but evolution made children wean off of breastfeeding way sooner than 6 years old and I think there's a good reason for that. As for the mother's closeness, I agree it's pretty important, but psychology researches claim it's important in the early stages. According to baby and labor psychology, babies are to be give to mother in the moment of birth, first thing. Not after being cleaned, not after cutting the cord. Right when they are out, because the moment of birth and the first couple hours on earth will determine the child's original trust or mistrust in the world. This is a psychological theory, which I find quite convincing, but of course, not a fact. Just saying. As for the parental bed on the long run, that may be good for the child, but does little and less good to the parents' sexual life and evidentially relationship. This is not a theory, but personal experience, so again it may not be the same in all cases.

Getting to the point. I think the whole entire book, and every book for that matter depends on the reader's perception. Not just a sex scene, but any scene and thus it is the most natural thing for everybody to have a perception on things. And what the majority perceives shall be know as reality. In ancient Rome and Greece everybody had sex in any position they liked. Later rear entry got degraded into something that suggests the inferiority of the person receiving it and missionary position became "reality" and "normal". New trends are blowing in the wind, we are slowly drifting back to ancient Greece and Rome accepting any type of sexual position. What's real and normal depends on time and place. And it always changes. That's why I can't say it enough times to look at the Dothraki from the Dothraki POV, because that's their reality, their norms. Rear entry was their idea of vanilla (I can't believe I'm actually using this word to describe what is known as "traditional" sex) and it was no way dehumanizing or degrading women. We never get the impression that Dothraki women had anything against rear entry or Dothraki sex customs. Drogo was an open minded man, but being open minded doesn't mean he's straightforwardly devoted to the practice of an entirely different culture (he's still Dothraki), only that he will be open to it. As he was open to Daenerys riding him.

The Weirdwood's Eyes. Drogo's fondness for life in Pentos suggests to me that the Dothraki threat to the free cities is a bit of a sham. Almost certainly, these rich city states could afford to dive off the Dothraki (as Tyrion suggests to Illyrio) . But, the profits from dealing in slaves with them are so enormous that it's far more lucrative just to give them protection money/manses/wine etc.

That's a pretty good thought, though I think the word "fondness" for "life" in Pentos is a little too strong. He enjoyed those few days he spent in Pentos every second year or so. And I absolutely agree that the Dothraki had a mutual live and let live and enjoy its benefits relationship with the free cities. I'm not so certain that a sellsword company would so easily throw back the Dothraki though. Jorah, who is a practiced warrior claims that the Dothraki would actually stand a chance of sweeping the Seven Kingdoms and Robert is literally shitting his pants when he hears of the chance of a Dothraki assault. That is probably not without reason.

Great essays RhaenysBalerion! There's a lot of information about how their relationship is more than what it seems. The symbol and motif collection is great too. I should look at that whenever I plan to reread Dany's chapters.

I never thought about the comparisons between Dany and Drogo to Sandor and Sansa before. I can't wait for more comparisons and stories.

Thank you for your kind words! And welcome to the forums :cheers:

Thank you for those essays I've really enjoyed reading them. Having been somewhat absent of late its taken me a good fortnight to catch up on this thread and read the PTP thread which I had been wanting to get into.

The Dany Drogo essays have been fantastic and really insightful.

Its crossed my mind that Drogo must have had a fascination with Westerossi culture to have been approached by Illyrio to wed Danaerys.

He likes drinking Westeros wine we are told, and he clearly wanted this exotic foreign wife. Plus his manse in Pentos is very alien to the Dothraki way, do other Khals have homes in the free cities? hmmm. He must have seemed a lot more likely to go for the plan than other war lords would. Its would seem he knew to ask his new bride rather than go about it the Dothraki way. at least that first time, and Dany figuired out the way to take some power back when she took him out to under the stars and rode him for all to see. Does this strike others as a domination thing? she's showing the Khalisar that she can ride their Khal, that she can dominate him and take HER pleasure from him.After all the Dothraki fashion of sex is rear entry yes? which is generally accepted to be about domination and dehumanising the woman. Most people associate it with degradation of the female, using terms such as "doggy style" is pretty de humanising, making the sex all about animalistic desire, the position completely bypasses the external parts of the clitoris which limits female enjoyment, unless the man chooses to stimulate her digitally.

Rear entry is also associated with anal sex which again is usually seen as being about power play domination and subservience. imagery of bending someone over and fucking them is used to convey using someone, abusing them, getting one over on them, screwing someone over, etc. Its used to convey weakness and of course emasculation.

Whereas woman on top conjures up the idea of the woman being in control, she is taking the man into her rather than receiving him, she is free to control the pace and depth of the love making, she can rock back and forth to stimulate her clitoris herself and use her own hands to ensure she gets enough clitoral stimulus to orgasm. The man is often extremely aroused during this position, experiencing powerful orgasm while being dominated by the female. Who can pin his arms down lean forward and smother his face with her body and generally is in a position of control and power over him. Dany does this in front of Drogo's subjects..She takes him out and shows them all and him who is boss.

I think a lot depends on the person. There are women who like to be on top and there are women who don't. That doesn't straightforwardly means that they are influenced/driven by the straight-white-male stereotype, as we started calling it, only that such is her preference. And while it is symbolic for Daenerys to ride Drogo and thus express their equality (and not her superiority because later we are never confirmed if they kept to the Daenerys on top position from then on, what's more it's implied that Drogo got back the top position sometimes "After taking his pleasure, Khal Drogo rose from their sleeping mats..." or something like that, which implies to me, that it was on occasion with Drogo on top), we must keep in mind that this is a fiction and literature and thus about every second sentence is symbolic. In real life, people don't have sex to express who's superior and who's inferior in a relationship or in a society.

Actually, rear entry sex aka doggy style gets voted as one of women's favorite sex positions in every research I've ever seen. It's known for deep penetration and easier stimulation of the G-spot.

Furthermore, all this strikes me as a bunch of pretty bad stereotypes. The ideas that sex all about "domination" or that whoever is on top is the "dominant" one, or that people can only find pleasure if they are "dominant", are ridiculous. Especially since so many men and women enjoy being sexually "submissive", in the BDSM terms as well - putting that under quotation marks, since the "submission" is a pretend/fantasy one and only serves to give pleasure in a fantasy scenario. (Not that rear entry sex in itself has to be a mark of a "submissive" role.) The traditional stereotypes about certain types of sex being "degrading" may also be exciting to people who enjoy the feeling of breaking taboos.

Receiving anal sex is, of course, also something that quite a few people enjoy, men and women.

Overall, it all seems like a really stereotypical idea of sex and gender roles that is particularly propagated by straight men who think that, say, receiving anal sex makes one weak or submissive "like a woman", which is connected by many of the stereotypes and prejudices about gay men (to quote one movie in which a gay guy laughs at his straight friend about the straight guys' tendency to make a big deal about who is penetrating who; it also makes me think of The Sopranos, where Vito was judged even more harshly for being gay once his mobster buddies learned that he was not a "pitcher", i.e. that he was seen giving another man a blow job rather than receiving it; or about the prison hierarchy where men dominate other men by making them their "women" or "bitches").

It's one of the reasons why I was never a big fan of that storyline with Dany and Drogo. Though I guess one could say that she widened his horizons since the Dothraki only practiced one sexual position.

So.. you don't like that Daenerys's breaking a stereotype when riding Drogo, because you think that's a stereotype too? I'm not sure I understood well.

[Annara Snow]

So.. you don't like that Daenerys's breaking a stereotype when riding Drogo, because you think that's a stereotype too? I'm not sure I understood well.

How do you see that as breaking a stereotype? We've been talking about this being an example of GRRM using the stereotype. As you have also acknowledged:

we must keep in mind that this is a fiction and literature and thus about every second sentence is symbolic. In real life, people don't have sex to express who's superior and who's inferior in a relationship or in a society.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

This is mainly offtopic, but evolution made children wean off of breastfeeding way sooner than 6 years old and I think there's a good reason for that. As for the mother's closeness, I agree it's pretty important, but psychology researches claim it's important in the early stages. According to baby and labor psychology, babies are to be give to mother in the moment of birth, first thing. Not after being cleaned, not after cutting the cord. Right when they are out, because the moment of birth and the first couple hours on earth will determine the child's original trust or mistrust in the world. This is a psychological theory, which I find quite convincing, but of course, not a fact. Just saying. As for the parental bed on the long run, that may be good for the child, but does little and less good to the parents' sexual life and evidentially relationship. This is not a theory, but personal experience, so again it may not be the same in all cases.

I don't want to drift off topic, but I do know rather a lot about this subject being as I am a qualified Breastfeeding Councillor and have spent many, many years studying the bare bones of the studies pertaining to when the natural age for human weaning is, the effect and importance of skin to skin, allowing a baby to self latch in the moments after birth, co sleeping, the fourth trimester, how womens and babies brains function during the important post birth period and the long term effects of this upon the mother child dyad etc and 6 is actually pretty much the age we would wean at if left to it without cultural pressures, societal norms etc. The work of Dr K Dettwyler is fascinating and reveals much about when weaning happens the physiological changes to the childs jaw which cause this to happen, the development of the childs immune system etc. And there are many fascinating articles out there on this subject if anyone does wish to find out more.

If you look at practices outside of the western world such as in Mongolia we see children continuing to breastfeed well into childhood. Ann Sinnott's book Breastfeeding Older Children is a great book on the subject, I have had the privilege of hearing her speak on the subject and meeting her and its very compelling.

Anyway its another topic I was just using GRRM's portrayal of Lysa as an example of the use of incorrect steryotypes to convey a message about a character or relationship within the story.

I think maybe using the word domination was wrong it is more a method of showing a shift in their relationship and more importantly in Dany's self.

I think you raise a really interesting point about viewing things from a Dothraki point of view. Are we supposed to view the Dothraki as a dominating and savage culture and showing them as copulating only from behind is a means to convey that. Or are we supposed to look at the sex scene between Dany & Drogo from the view point of their Dothraki audience? seeing it rather as a weird foreign means of having sex? what exactly would those present be thinking? its really interesting. I've never thought about it before, usually I read the events in context to the world Martin has created, I'm vocally against judging the characters by our own modern morallity code. Seems somewhat hypocritical of me I think. :/ I'm not sure if I have any clue as to which way around we are meant to think about this.

[Le Cygne]

About the Lysa and breastfeeding side discussion - taking that to a new thread sounds interesting. There are very differing opinions about that, and I respect those. I personally agree with RhaenysBalerion, but it would be interesting to look at the text to see what GRRM was trying to show on another thread (what specifically is he trying to show with Lysa)?

Back to our topic, which is romance in the writing of the story:

Looking again at the text, she knows others are watching, but that doesn't matter. "It was nothing to her. Was she not khaleesi?"

What does matter? His eyes.

"His were the only eyes that mattered, and when she mounted him she saw something there that she had never seen before."

The two lovers had to be face to face for her to see his eyes. Looking in the eyes, looking in the face, seeing someone, that's repeated two dozen times (I gave up counting after that) in Dany's first three chapters, throughout establishing her character and her relationship with Drogo. Here are just a few examples:

He put his finger under her chin and lifted her head, so she was looking up into his eyes... Then he sat on the ground facing her, legs crossed beneath him, their faces finally at a height...

Dany sat unmoving, silent, looking at his eyes...

She averted her eyes and covered herself with her hands. "No," Drogo said. He pulled her hands away from her breasts, gently but firmly, then lifted her face again to make her look at him...

Khal Drogo sat with his legs crossed, looking at her, drinking in her body with his eyes...

He cupped her face in his huge hands and she looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question.. "Yes," she whispered...

When he tried to turn her over, she put a hand on his chest. "No," she said. "This night I would look on your face."

Drogo was an open minded man, but being open minded doesn't mean he's straightforwardly devoted to the practice of an entirely different culture (he's still Dothraki), only that he will be open to it. As he was open to Daenerys riding him.

Agreed. And this is supported in the text with Drogo following Dany without question, and this, "She rode him as fiercely as ever she had ridden her silver, and when the moment of his pleasure came, Khal Drogo called out her name."

Look at me. He wants her to see him. She wants him to see her. Saying her name is very personal, too. Looking into her eyes, saying her name, that's about love. This is more than sex, it's a connection, and he's listening to her, too. She says yes, then she says no, and he listens. She is khaleesi.

Every position in the kama sutra can come later, if they like. This scene is about this night. Something important passes between Dany and Drogo on this night. "This night I would look on your face."

[RhaenysBee]

How do you see that as breaking a stereotype? We've been talking about this being an example of GRRM using the stereotype. As you have also acknowledged:

One post said the stereotype was that rear entry is dehumanizing. Then you said you didn't like that storyline in Daenerys/Drogo ('that' meaning Daenerys riding him, or so I thought you meant). And I wanted to know if you thought it was a stereotype too that Daenerys eventually got to be on top (after you described how rear entry is popular and pleasant in spite of the first stereotype). If that makes sense. Maybe it doesn't :lol: Or maybe I misunderstood that last bit of your post.

I don't want to drift off topic, but I do know rather a lot about this subject being as I am a qualified Breastfeeding Councillor and have spent many, many years studying the bare bones of the studies pertaining to when the natural age for human weaning is, the effect and importance of skin to skin, allowing a baby to self latch in the moments after birth, co sleeping, the fourth trimester, how womens and babies brains function during the important post birth period and the long term effects of this upon the mother child dyad etc and 6 is actually pretty much the age we would wean at if left to it without cultural pressures, societal norms etc. The work of Dr K Dettwyler is fascinating and reveals much about when weaning happens the physiological changes to the childs jaw which cause this to happen, the development of the childs immune system etc. And there are many fascinating articles out there on this subject if anyone does wish to find out more.

If you look at practices outside of the western world such as in Mongolia we see children continuing to breastfeed well into childhood. Ann Sinnott's book Breastfeeding Older Children is a great book on the subject, I have had the privilege of hearing her speak on the subject and meeting her and its very compelling.

Anyway its another topic I was just using GRRM's portrayal of Lysa as an example of the use of incorrect steryotypes to convey a message about a character or relationship within the story.

I think maybe using the word domination was wrong it is more a method of showing a shift in their relationship and more importantly in Dany's self.

I think you raise a really interesting point about viewing things from a Dothraki point of view. Are we supposed to view the Dothraki as a dominating and savage culture and showing them as copulating only from behind is a means to convey that. Or are we supposed to look at the sex scene between Dany & Drogo from the view point of their Dothraki audience? seeing it rather as a weird foreign means of having sex? what exactly would those present be thinking? its really interesting. I've never thought about it before, usually I read the events in context to the world Martin has created, I'm vocally against judging the characters by our own modern morallity code. Seems somewhat hypocritical of me I think. :/ I'm not sure if I have any clue as to which way around we are meant to think about this.

I never meant to question your knowledge on the topic (and I'm sure I didn't) or to challenge your opinion. What you propose is very interesting and I'd definitely check out some articles on this topic. I'm obviously not an expert, it's just a humble opinion, but it still strikes me as gross and unnatural for a six year old to be breastfed. A separate thread on Lysa breastfeeding would be really interesting.

My point is exactly that we should be able to view the Dothraki from both points of views, to see both sides of the coin, because that's exactly what Daenerys goes through. First she sees the Dothraki as any Westerosi sees them, alien and barbarous, but as she gets familiar with their morals and customs she finds out that they are human too, there are good and bad people among them too, they love and they hate too, they are overall not so different. And once she gets used to the Dothraki, she regards them as a norm and finds the Lhazareen alien and weird, which shows beautifully that everything is relative. As for the Dothraki seeing Daenerys, they go through the same as her. They see her as a weird foreigner girl and they accept her because of their love and respect for Drogo and their trust in him that he knows what he is doing. The Dothraki curse things that are alien to their culture, just like Westerosi might curse the Dothraki for their differences. They go mad when Mirri performs magic and they aren't very welcoming towards the authority of a female (Hago hates Daenerys all along, and Mago takes her interference with his ways for an offense too).

About the Lysa and breastfeeding side discussion - taking that to a new thread sounds interesting. There are very differing opinions about that, and I respect those. I personally agree with RhaenysBalerion, but it would be interesting to look at the text to see what GRRM was trying to show on another thread (what specifically is he trying to show with Lysa)?

Back to our topic, which is romance in the writing of the story:

Looking again at the text, she knows others are watching, but that doesn't matter. "It was nothing to her. Was she not khaleesi?"

What does matter? His eyes.

"His were the only eyes that mattered, and when she mounted him she saw something there that she had never seen before."

The two lovers had to be face to face for her to see his eyes. Looking in the eyes, looking in the face, seeing someone, that's repeated two dozen times (I gave up counting after that) in Dany's first three chapters, throughout establishing her character and her relationship with Drogo. Here are just a few examples:

Agreed. And this is supported in the text with Drogo following Dany without question, and this, "She rode him as fiercely as ever she had ridden her silver, and when the moment of his pleasure came, Khal Drogo called out her name."

Look at me. He wants her to see him. She wants him to see her. Saying her name is very personal, too. Looking into her eyes, saying her name, that's about love. This is more than sex, it's a connection, and he's listening to her, too. She says yes, then she says no, and he listens. She is khaleesi.

Every position in the kama sutra can come later, if they like. This scene is about this night. Something important passes between Dany and Drogo on this night. "This night I would look on your face."

This is the first time they don't mechanically have sex, but make love. And conceiving Rhaego is a further proof that this was more than what they had before, that this was special and deep and mutually shared.

[DogLover]

My point is exactly that we should be able to view the Dothraki from both points of views, to see both sides of the coin, because that's exactly what Daenerys goes through. First she sees the Dothraki as any Westerosi sees them, alien and barbarous, but as she gets familiar with their morals and customs she finds out that they are human too, there are good and bad people among them too, they love and they hate too, they are overall not so different. And once she gets used to the Dothraki, she regards them as a norm and finds the Lhazareen alien and weird, which shows beautifully that everything is relative. As for the Dothraki seeing Daenerys, they go through the same as her. They see her as a weird foreigner girl and they accept her because of their love and respect for Drogo and their trust in him that he knows what he is doing. The Dothraki curse things that are alien to their culture, just like Westerosi might curse the Dothraki for their differences. They go mad when Mirri performs magic and they aren't very welcoming towards the authority of a female (Hago hates Daenerys all along, and Mago takes her interference with his ways for an offense too).

I've compared Jon and Ygritte to Robb/Jeyne, Rhaegar/Lyanna, and Asha/Qarl because of the themes of love and duty. I've also recently compared Dany/Drogo to Sansa/Sandor, but this post highlights, to me, the similarities between Daenerys/Drogo and Jon/Ygritte. Like Jon, Daenerys really learns to understand another culture and demonstrates real emotional and intellectual growth from her experiences, as Jon did. It's an angle I've never really considered before.

[RhaenysBee]

I've compared Jon and Ygritte to Robb/Jeyne, Rhaegar/Lyanna, and Asha/Qarl because of the themes of love and duty. I've also recently compared Dany/Drogo to Sansa/Sandor, but this post highlights, to me, the similarities between Daenerys/Drogo and Jon/Ygritte. Like Jon, Daenerys really learns to understand another culture and demonstrates real emotional and intellectual growth from her experiences, as Jon did. It's an angle I've never really considered before.

wow, you're absolutely right. great parallel! especially that the wildlings are similarly considered to be barbaric as the Dothraki. And Jon, just like Daenerys finds their values and soul. Great parallel, never came to my mind. :bowdown:

[Le Cygne]

Awesome, DogLover, and we get to contrast these cultures with Westeros, sometimes it's not at all clear who is civilized and who is not.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yes i too had never seen the parallel between D&D and J&Y in this sense before.

I don't know to be honest if I'd have the energy for a Lysa thread. I spend so much time discussing BF with people and peoples cultural norms are very hard to overcome. Hell it took me 4-5 years to get my head around it being normal and I had to do a lot of studying and meet a lot of mothers who were BF'ing past infancy in order to wrap my head around it. I ended up BF'ing my eldest for slightly more than a yr after saying I'd maybe do 6 months, and by the time we had our third child was saying I'd do it until 18 mths but anything longer would just be weird. I ended up BF'ing until she was 3 and she self weaned, knowing what I know I can see that she did so sue mainly to me restricting feeds due to societal pressures. Last night she said she wished she could have a feed even though it has been 2 yrs since she stopped!

But if one pops up I'd probably be unable to resist posting. I get the impression reading other peoples comments would likely make me want to bash my head against the wall though. Certainly the reality of natural term breastfeeding is NOT what GRRM was trying to illustrate when he chose to introduce a character who was feeding a 6 yr old.

But enough OT talk. lol. Back to romance.

When are we getting some more Jamie & Brienne?