Rethinking Romance: Love Stories of ASOIAF

[Ygrain]

Rhaegar wasn't 'unremarkable' though - he excelled at all he did, including the martial arts and supposedly 'always distinguished himself' (if not necessarily winning) in tournaments, just not being a frequent competitor. Its just that excelling does not always equal coming first when there are others who excel also.

For example, in another tourney (at Storms End) he unhorsed Simon Toyne (later the Smiling Knight) and broke 12 lances against Arthur Dayne before losing to another KG in the final.

Jorah, OTOH, appears to have been a one-shot wonder. So I don't recognise any particular parallel here.

Sorry, I'm the boring, pragmatic one, who takes romance and symbolism and the like out of the picture and just looks at the facts we have in the text.

No special 'inner drive' is necessary for Rhaegar to win Harrenhal. (Which does not preclude him having some, note). He was good enough already. A number of things may have given him an edge, if an edge he had, rather than it just being his time. Among them could be Lyanna, her KotLT performance, frustration at Aerys blocking his plotting, or any number of other things..

I tend toward the view that the 'unstoppable' image is the romanticism of the viewer (people watching at Harrenhal) imparting itself on the scene far more than the actual performers. And done so in hindsight too.

What we don't have in the text is any suggestion linking Rhaegar and Lyanna together after the crowning moment, for around a year, until the abduction. When we combine that with Rhaegar's famous dutifulness, his adherence to prophecy, his attempts to create three heads of the dragon and with Elia only being unable to provide the third after Aegon was born, and it says to me that the base assumption should be there was no romance between R+L at all at Harrenhal. Perhaps attraction, and certainly respect, but not romance, at that stage.

I knew some rational pragmatism was needed :-)

You may be perfectly right with the hindsight, but even that might be a clue in its own: it's Ned's hindsight, and he, of all people, might know.

And, while Jorah and Rhaegar were definitely not in the same league, Rhaegar was not noted as a tourney winner in his own league, either - remember how Dany was disappointed learning that he rode well but did not win? There is huge emphasy on winning, hence why I think that Rhaegar winning that particular tourney where Lyanna was present and where she shone as KotLT is of significance.

[Le Cygne]

Sorry, I'm the boring, pragmatic one, who takes romance and symbolism and the like out of the picture and just looks at the facts we have in the text.

And I see it differently. I want to look at everything in the text, including romance and symbolism and the like. As GRRM put it, "all the clues and the foreshadowing and the super structure that you build" that is in place for the reveal.

This is a romance, so he's most certainly writing it like one. And I believe that line in the text is very suggestive, and a place holder for the next or last book. He wants us to think, I wonder what happened? And Ygrain and Odon filled in the blanks nicely.

There's a quote from GRRM, and he mentions the line from "As Time Goes By" from Casablanca, "It's still the same old story, a fight for love and glory, we all want kind of the same things out of life. And that humanity can motivate characters and make them real, and that's what I try to remember at all times."

Love is love, and human beings have a way of acting on those feelings that's not changed all that much as time goes by. So it's really not hard to fill those blanks in.

[corbon]

And I see it differently. I want to look at everything in the text, including romance and symbolism and the like. As GRRM put it, "all the clues and the foreshadowing and the super structure that you build" that is in place for the reveal.

This is a romance, so he's most certainly writing it like one. And I believe that line in the text is very suggestive, and a place holder for the next or last book. He wants us to think, I wonder what happened? And Ygrain and Odon filled in the blanks nicely.

There's a quote from GRRM, and he mentions the line from "As Time Goes By" from Casablanca, "It's still the same old story, a fight for love and glory, we all want kind of the same things out of life. And that humanity can motivate characters and make them real, and that's what I try to remember at all times."

Love is love, and human beings have a way of acting on those feelings that's not changed all that much as time goes by. So it's really not hard to fill those blanks in.

I understand that, I'm not sure if I made my point well enough.

I don't think life is like the stories about it. I think life is immensely more 'real' and 'practical' than the stories. I think the stories, the romanticism, are the rosy glow we as humans put on memories. The same effect as 'it was always better in the old days'.

And I think GRRM understands this. I read the actions his characters make as being very real, very pragmatic, and rarely if ever even the slightest bit 'romantic'. But the way people (including other characters) see those actions is coloured by the romanticism they as observers put onto things, just as it is by the romanticism we as readers view everything with, and as storytellers impart to our stories. And I think GRRM does this better than anyone I've ever read.

Take, for example, the N+A 'romance, that was very widely believed to have been a thing, based on the KotLT story combined with a few rumours.

But looked at objectively, there is no indication of any romantic connection between Ned and Ashara in the KotLT story. None at all. And the rumours are all post appearance-of-Jon and easily explained away by that event with no real N+A connection at all.

But still, nearly everyone (me included) saw the KotLT story as the first hints of a romantic connection. because thats what we humans do, and thats what GRRM laid out for us, in every way.

It was only Barristan's revelations later in ADwD that forced us to re-examine that story, and put together with some other clues and hints to see that Ashara dancing with shy Ned at Brandon's request really isn't a love-story in the making, just a girl dancing with a shy guy, at a dance, when someone else asks her to.

We can't help it. We love that shit, even though (perhaps because) it bears little resemblance to real life. And GRRm knows it, and knows how to use it.

In, perhaps, unnecessary self defense, I might add that I'm not as totally dry and unromantic as I would appear to be arguing this way. Just ask my wife. I (sometimes) know how to use that stuff too, in real life, because it makes her feel good, and thats the point. Its actually dry and practical for real, just we dress it up nicely in our fancies because thats what feels great.

Love is not feeling, its action. And actions are almost always practical, even if the practical is merely 'make someone else feel good'.

[corbon]

I knew some rational pragmatism was needed :-)

You may be perfectly right with the hindsight, but even that might be a clue in its own: it's Ned's hindsight, and he, of all people, might know.

And is Ned not just about the most romantic idealist in Westeros? The one least capable of rationalising?

:P

[Ygrain]

And is Ned not just about the most romantic idealist in Westeros? The one least capable of rationalising?

:P

The rational part was aimed at yourself :P

[corbon]

The rational part was aimed at yourself :P

Thanks, but my point there is that because its Ned's recollection is the very thing that makes it least reliable as a clue. Because Ned is the most romantic of all, in his soul, so the most capable of layering on things that weren't really there in his memory - not the factual parts, but the subjective parts.

For example, it is Ned's idealism that rules his actions in the end, and gets him killed, whereas in the opposite case Barristan has subjected his romanticism to his realism his whole life, making his subjective memories more reliable - IMO.

[Ygrain]

Thanks, but my point there is that because its Ned's recollection is the very thing that makes it least reliable as a clue. Because Ned is the most romantic of all, in his soul, so the most capable of layering on things that weren't really there in his memory - not the factual parts, but the subjective parts.

For example, it is Ned's idealism that rules his actions in the end, and gets him killed, whereas in the opposite case Barristan has subjected his romanticism to his realism his whole life, making his subjective memories more reliable - IMO.

I'm not sure, does his idealism necessarily equal romance? That part of his recollection, how the rose crown was placed in Lyanna's lap and he got hurt on its thorns seems rather symbolic of the realisation that the romantic ideals crashed on the ugly reality.

[corbon]

And, while Jorah and Rhaegar were definitely not in the same league, Rhaegar was not noted as a tourney winner in his own league, either - remember how Dany was disappointed learning that he rode well but did not win? There is huge emphasy on winning, hence why I think that Rhaegar winning that particular tourney where Lyanna was present and where she shone as KotLT is of significance.

Did not win always.

Dany, naturally, expected the great and glorious idolised big brother to win everything all the time. Such is romanticism, not reality.

I expect there were some other tourneys he won. I'm sure there were more than the half dozen tourneys we know about over the years, and I don't think it is actually said it was the only tourney he ever won.

And I don't agree that the emphasis is on winning, for real. Most participants do not expect to win, heck, probably most of them don't even hope to win. Look at Dunc, for example, who hoped to win 2-3 jousts before losing, so that he could make enough profit to survive on. Or Barristan's comments about how small things and luck mean that any swordsman (or jouster, by corollary) can lose any bout, regardless of who is the best. Even the best of the best rarely expect to win - unless you are Jaime-I-am-a-golden-god Lannister - who still isn't seen winning more often than he loses.

Its only the deluded romantics, like little-girl Dany, who expect someone to win all the time.

I'm not sure, does his idealism necessarily equal romance? That part of his recollection, how the rose crown was placed in Lyanna's lap and he got hurt on its thorns seems rather symbolic of the realisation that the romantic ideals crashed on the ugly reality.

Does that mean it wasn't a simple true recollection?

I think idealism means a rosy layer put on things, that can easily translate as an inaccurately romantic view of events.

[Ygrain]

Sifting through SSMs, I came across a SSM concerning tourney rules: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/1999/04 It is quite long but two pieces of information stand out: Harrenhall was a really great, important event, and it is compared to the tourney depicted in Ivanhoe. Now, in Ivanhoe, who won the tourney and whom did he crown as QoLaB? /hint hint/ :-)

[Le Cygne]

Now, in Ivanhoe, who won the tourney and whom did he crown as QoLaB? /hint hint/ :-)

Ygrain, you are awesome. :) It's the way stories are written.

Something else interesting, the language of romance is often the same across stories, so there's a consistency, but this also gives us clues about the stories. Like Dany and Sansa fantasizing about "cruel" kisses. Here's one in this story, where author is describing maiden fantasies (or the things that inspire them).

Cersei fantasizing about Rhaegar:

And so it had, though once she had drawn a picture of herself flying behind Rhaegar on a dragon, her arms wrapped tight about his chest.

Sansa rescued by the Hound:

Sandor Clegane cantered briskly through the gates astride Sansa’s chestnut courser. The girl was seated behind, both arms tight around the Hound's chest.

[Alia of the knife]

I don't think Jorah and Rhaegar are supposed to be literal parallels, but examples of GRRM's technique of giving clues, and the necessity to read between the lines.

I think the point is that Rhaegar was motivated in ways he never was before.

And I think one of those clues lies in what Selmy said about his determination when he set his mind to something. I think it likely that a natural scholar like Rhaegar may have been bored by all the pageantry and "one-upsmanship" sometimes played out in those events, so he likely didn't care to prove himself- until Lyanna.

I would also like to leave the full quote by Faulkner that so impacts GRRM's writing:

"The young man or woman writing today has forgotten the problems of the human heart in conflict with itself which alone can make good writing because only that is worth writing about, worth the agony and the sweat.”

[DogLover]

n/m

[DogLover]

I've been pondering the John/Isabella parallels to Rhaegar/Lyanna, and I also wonder if John could have also somewhat been an inspiration for Robert's character in that both had an insatiable sexual appetite.

(Since I'm still grappling with the new quote function, I'm just taking the following approach.)

Ygrain said:

Concerning the parallel of R+J, I could perhaps add that both relationships, while certainly in defiance of conventions and causing huge offence, received far harsher backlash than they should have. The amends that Robb made to Lord Frey should have been sufficient. The "abduction" of Lyanna should have been settled with similar amends and negotiations, it shouldn't have come down to a full-scale war. Unfortunately, both Aerys and Lord Frey shared one super dangerous feature - an overblown ego which did not tolerate offence. Aerys' was his own undoing, and I sincerely hope that Walder's will be, as well.

Very true, but, as SeanF addressed in his essay, the consequences of these actions parallel the RL story of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville, since (prolonged) war was the result of Edward IV marrying Elizabeth, as it incurred the wrath of Warwick, who also had an inflated ego and felt the need to avenge his wounded pride. Edward IV ultimately prevailed, but at great cost to his family and the realm.

Not to derail the topic, but since we've encouraged participants to examine parallels to other ASoIaF romances whether or not they have been presented and parallels to Sansa have already been drawn, I do wonder if we can forecast Sansa's future choices by examining the choice Lyanna made. There's already textual evidence that suggests Sansa just may sacrifice "duty" for love again. If she does, how dire will the consequences be the next time around? Also, taking into consideration Ygrain's comment: "For the first time in years, Ned is forced to acknowledge that Lyanna was right in choosing Rhaegar over Robert", will Sansa this time around make the "right" choice, as in choosing the best man over someone expected based on her social status?

[SeanF]

John was smitten by Isabelle. She was far less keen on him. Allegedly, he hanged one of her lovers, over her bed. Even if the story is untrue, it indicates a very bad marriage.

[Le Cygne]

I'd like to think that the author is going somewhere with this, that love (and desire) matters. It's what motivates us, he says, again and again. He's a storyteller, first and foremost, and there has to be more to a story like this than in the end, all that matters is duty, or no one will ever say, storyteller, tell us that story again.

From LOTR:

"Happy folk are Hobbits to dwell near the shores of the sea!" said Haldir. "It is long indeed since any of my folk have looked on it, yet still we remember it in song. Tell me of these havens as we walk."

"I cannot," said Merry. "I have never seen them. I have never been out of my own land before. And if I had known what the world outside was like, I don't think I should have had the heart to leave it."

"Not even to see fair Lothlórien?" said Haldir. "The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair, and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."

And that last line, I think Tolkien accomplished that in the end. Love mattered, and endured. I've read LOTR many times over the years, and if that wasn't the case, I'd have only read it once.

[Lummel]

I'd like to think that the author is going somewhere with this, that love (and desire) matters. It's what motivates us, he says, again and again. He's a storyteller, first and foremost, and there has to be more to a story like this than in the end, all that matters is duty, or no one will ever say, storyteller, tell us that story again.

Oh yes, certainly, the conflict between love and duty or we could say between the individual and society is huge and central to ASOIAF. Love is the bane of duty and honour as Maester Aemon tells Jon in AGOT.

Look at the world that GRRM creates. It has very few institutions outside of the family, there are almost no places that a person can escape the role their family expects or needs them to play. The two that are outside of teh family - the night's watch and the Kingsguard are also deeply flawed and still tie back to the family.

On the whole I think we look more to love and the characters who feel pulled by love than by duty and honour, it's the struggle 'of the human heart against itself' between love and duty that engages most readers as far as I can tell.

[Alia of the knife]

John was smitten by Isabelle. She was far less keen on him. Allegedly, he hanged one of her lovers, over her bed. Even if the story is untrue, it indicates a very bad marriage.

I had heard the same thing. I think he actually had him quartered first, and then the bits of him hung over her bed.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I've actually thought a few times that those who wish to escape from the duty of family have several options, well the men do. A male child who does not wish to be wed off in some advantagious match can

1: Join the Church and become a Septon

2: Be a very good knight & join the KG

3: Volunteer for the NW

4: Go to Old town & become a Maester.

But women have half as many options its become a Septa or a Silent Sister. oooh great!

But yes duty v's love is a recurring theme.

In regard to Rhaegar & Lyanna I think its a very strong one, Lyanna's duty was to submit to the match with Robert and dutifully produce some stormlands heirs. She howether was not prepared to do this she presumably chose to carve her own path, she wasn't going to take either of the available get out clauses as she's not a follower of the seven. I doubt she or any other woman can just say actually I want to be a septa anyway, especially as the sole female heir to the house. I get the impression that you need parental permission in whatever you do in Westeros.

What remains to be discovered is was Lyanna a willing party, I think so I think that the sheild in the tree is indeed extreemly evocative of those stories of the prince happening upon the maiden naked and totally buy into the idea that this is what actually happened.

[corbon]

I think so I think that the sheild in the tree is indeed extreemly evocative of those stories of the prince happening upon the maiden naked and totally buy into the idea that this is what actually happened.

Rhaegar was commissioned to find the KotLT. "They" found only the shield. Doesn't sound like a conventional naked-swimming-maiden romantic situation to me.

Doesn't mean it wasn't, just I'm wary of stepping further and further away from the text in order to create seeming parallels.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I know it often seems easy to come to conclusions which are not spelled out in the text. But a lot of ASOIAF is reading between the lines and bringing all the loose threads together. Often using our knowledge of traditional folk lore and mythology is a great lead as to what may have happened or be going to happen in his work. He's quite open to having borrowed from various sources.

"They" does not have to mean she was not discovered in a state of undress. I'm not thinking they made mad passionate love under the tree canopy, more that he was smitten with her and there fore kept her secret. They could mean Rhaegar and Ser Arthus & Ser Oswell. The two who later went on to help with Rhaegar and Lyanna to elope.

In most naked swimming maiden tales the prince does not disturb the maiden, only observes her and falls in love, later seeking to win her affections or steal her away.

In ASOIAF we actually have a story of two lovers which utilises this exact same scenario in Florian & Jonquil.

Where he comes across her and her sisters bathing in the pool so naming the place Maidenpool.

It would seem that the origins of these tales of spying a beautiful maid in a state of undress exist in many cultures.

Often it seems the maid is some kind of shape shifter, very interesting indeed. Is Lyanna not a described as the wolf maid?

From Greem Nymphs to the swan maidens, the Selkie's of the shetland isles and the Croatian She Wolf myth. these stories are usually very similar in their plot. Even the Little mermaid bares a resemblance in parts.

The shape shifting female is caught without her skin, naked by the male, he is entranced by her beauty and plots to catch her by stealing the skin, and hiding it from her somehow. She marries him and invariably bares him children who eventually discover the whereabouts of her skin and enable her to return to her other form.

Now what has this to do with R&L?

Well GRRM does not directly copy any folk tales he only uses elements and inspiration so we don't need to find a carbon copy of the story to call it a theme here or use our knowledge of these tales to guess at what may have gone on.

So Rhaegar is the male and Lyanna the Shape shifter, she is a wolf maid, she could well have been a Warg. I happen to think she was but I know that is a highly debated topic in itself. She was definitely wearing a disguise though masquerading as the KOTLT. If she was indeed spied changing out of the Armour then we have the classic man spies maiden slipping out of her skin (disguise) and falls in love set up. Next he plots to steal her, to marry her, and to get a child by her. This as far as we know also is very plausibly is what happened but again hotly debated.

I do think it did, and I firmly believe in R+L=J.

But this is of course where the tale goes awry as Lyanna is not given the means to escape by her child as she is dead.

GRRM subverting the classic folk tale format.