Rethinking Romance: Love Stories of ASOIAF

[Le Cygne]

Great analysis, DogLover!

Even though their love scenes are so passionate and steamy, there are some tender moments that indicate Qarl truly loves Asha.

Asha and Qarl dagger scene, one of my favorites. I love the "she liked" passage where she thinks of all the things she likes about him. His body, his kisses, his smile. They seem like they'd be content just to be together, and he wouldn't ask anything of her she didn't want to give. Unlike Tris. As booknerd2 said, Tris doesn't "get" her, so he doesn't get her. For now, anyway.

At least one of the three will die and the more I think about it, the more I think it will be Asha. :crying:

Maybe like you said, both Qarl and Asha will die together, she thinks that would be better than dying alone. I think we would know who she loves, even if we'd only heard her say that.

There's another place GRRM mentioned dying alone, Jon Snow, interesting, he thought it would be dying alone with Ygritte, but not Ghost:

He had no sense of the direwolf, not even in his dreams. It made him feel as if part of himself had been cut off. Even with Ygritte sleeping beside him, he felt alone. He did not want to die alone.

And I loved your observation about axe symbolism! Now I'm starting to wonder about when Sandor stopped Arya from running into a massacre (and certain death) with an axe.

Brienne: ... and when you say that we were naked, were we the only ones, or... ?

Jaime: No, we were the only ones that were naked.

Jaime: Huh... come to think of it, that is kinda weird.

Brienne: Okay, well, I'm going to do my best to forget that this conversation ever happened.

Jaime: Yeah... okay...

:rofl:

Please let them both live long enough for him to tell her about this dream (if they don't live it, but she really needs to know about the naked part).

Stories we've been talking about so far - updated index on next page...

[Elba the Intoner]

{snip}

I've touched upon some of this above but my main problems with Arya/Gendry centre around Arya and the assumptions that are placed on her both in the book and by commenters, such assumptions include:

-that Arya is heterosexual

-that heterosexual relationships in Westeros are not problematic with regard to the relative power of men and women and that Arya will view engaging in such a relationship as something she will be willing to do

-that Arya will be more interested in traditional femininity as she grows older and will find enjoyment in this

-that Arya will view the role of wife (and potentially mother) as one that she wants to inhabit

-that male and female relationships are unlikely to be platonic if both parties are unattached and display any non-romantic chemistry or attraction

I think that it is these assumptions which are the foundation of the Arya/Gendry relationship. However I think all these assumptions are:

a - not true of real life (in fact I know many people who break these assumptions and for whom such assumptions are problematic and damaging)

b - that they are really patriarchal and reflective of dominant social narratives about girls and women rather than the lived reality of these people

c - not being applied to Arya because of who she is but because of her sex and who people want her to be

In essence I don't believe most or all of these assumptions to be true of Arya.

I know this was a super long post. Sorry.

This was a good post that gave me something to think about. You make a good point that our assumptions influence how we approach a story and they are not necessarily true for everyone and I don't disagree with that. However, after thinking about it, I do disagree with what you say about assumptions placed on Arya by the book because what is written should be the basis for the story and that is all the reader has to go on. If the book actually shows evidence for a certain assumption, then I do take that as it is. The assumption that Arya is heterosexual is a good example. I do think Arya is being written as heterosexual because of things we see in the books, like she always seems to notice the handsome men like Jaqen and really looks at them, as she does a few times with Gendry. While this is not die hard proof that she is heterosexual, her thoughts and processes do seem to suggests it to me since I see in the way she is written a definite appreciation of the opposite sex.

Also, I am not sure what you mean about the second assumption that "that heterosexual relationships in Westeros are not problematic with regard to the relative power of men and women and that Arya will view engaging in such a relationship as something she will be willing to do." I don't see how anyone reading these books can think that any relationship is not problematic given the dominant patriarchal society in which the characters are living. Heck relationships are problematic in our own real world. I think pretty much every POV we read deals with this issue on some level. They are very problematic but I hope that doesn't mean that none of them will find love in some form or another. I doubt that Arya would ever accept a traditional marriage scenario and agree that we should not assume "that Arya will view the role of wife (and potentially mother) as one that she wants to inhabit". I don't think that traditional marriage is end game for her, but I do think she wants love in her life and I hope she finds it and I do think that her relationship with Gendry has been built up the most so far.

Great discussion everyone! Rose-Papillon your summaries of Brienne and Jaime are enjoyable and hilarious! I could never be that creative. Great job on Asha and Qarl as well DogLover. I don't have much to add to that but they were well done. You emphasized how much Asha views her time with Qarl as an escape form reality, which she really craves. I had not picked up before.

[jessiejcs]

Arya offers him a job. She lost the rest of her pack and she would like him to smith over at Riverrrun when they get there. I am sure that she is also trying to help him out. He does nothing but repeat the word “Riverrun” after she finishes saying it from her last sentence. Not sure what to make of that if anything. He seemed distracted and he was about to change the conversation anyway to focus it on her. Any interpretations? I have a mental block on this one. I just can’t read into it.

First off, I just want to say I think you are amazinggggg!!! The Arya/Gendry relationship is one of my favorites! I have to confess I watched the series before I read the books, and the first thing I thought when I saw them interact in the show was they were going to get married and be king and queen, haha! I feel like there is an obvious connection between them in the show so I'm sure I was a bit biased when reading the books. Anyway, when Gendry gets distracted by the mention of Riverrun here, I think he is just coming back to reality a bit. Arya is a highborn lady, offering him a job and things are going to go back to 'normal' where he is a nobody and their relationship will totally change. I think it makes him sad and I think it's another reason he doesn't go.

[DogLover]

And I loved your observation about axe symbolism! Now I'm starting to wonder about when Sandor stopped Arya from running into a massacre (and certain death) with an axe.

When I have some time (I've been derailed with a busy work schedule this week), I'd like to write some more about the significance of the axe in Minoan goddess religion. And I also wondered about the axe Sandor used to prevent Arya from running to her death. Not sure what to make of it yet, though.

Also, I am not sure what you mean about the second assumption that "that heterosexual relationships in Westeros are not problematic with regard to the relative power of men and women and that Arya will view engaging in such a relationship as something she will be willing to do." I don't see how anyone reading these books can think that any relationship is not problematic given the dominant patriarchal society in which the characters are living. Heck relationships are problematic in our own real world. I think pretty much every POV we read deals with this issue on some level. They are very problematic but I hope that doesn't mean that none of them will find love in some form or another. I doubt that Arya would ever accept a traditional marriage scenario and agree that we should not assume "that Arya will view the role of wife (and potentially mother) as one that she wants to inhabit". I don't think that traditional marriage is end game for her, but I do think she wants love in her life and I hope she finds it and I do think that her relationship with Gendry has been built up the most so far.

Great points, Elba. Each of the romances we're going to explore have their own set of problems. It wouldn't be realistic or interesting if they didn't. Also, not only is it unlikely Arya will comfortably settle into a traditional marriage, but it is now highly unlikely Sansa will as well, even though that was something she desired before her dreams were cruelly shattered.

First off, I just want to say I think you are amazinggggg!!! The Arya/Gendry relationship is one of my favorites! I have to confess I watched the series before I read the books, and the first thing I thought when I saw them interact in the show was they were going to get married and be king and queen, haha! I feel like there is an obvious connection between them in the show so I'm sure I was a bit biased when reading the books. Anyway, when Gendry gets distracted by the mention of Riverrun here, I think he is just coming back to reality a bit. Arya is a highborn lady, offering him a job and things are going to go back to 'normal' where he is a nobody and their relationship will totally change. I think it makes him sad and I think it's another reason he doesn't go.

I was initially reluctant to include Arya/Gendry, but I'm so happy I was persuaded (it really didn't take much). Booknerd2 has done such a fabulous job with this "ship" and I'm now a believer (sorry, Edric Dayne). And Maisie Williams and Joe Dempsie have such fantastic onscreen chemistry. I love their scenes together.

[Le Cygne]

I wanted to hear booknerd2 talk about them, that was my ulterior motive. :)

Rolling around in the dirt in the acorn dress with Gendry tickling her, then they open the door to hear the song of the maiden of the tree laughing with her forest love in a dress of golden leaves, that's a lot right there. He put a lot of time into writing that, it was like their bearpit scene.

[Winter's Knight]

Anyway, when Gendry gets distracted by the mention of Riverrun here, I think he is just coming back to reality a bit. Arya is a highborn lady, offering him a job and things are going to go back to 'normal' where he is a nobody and their relationship will totally change. I think it makes him sad and I think it's another reason he doesn't go.

That is what I thought as well. If Gendry does get work at Riverun, he'd not only lose Arya irrevocably but he'd have to live with that under his nose everyday. The most he could hope for was an illicit love affair, something which could never end well for him-there is a member of the Night's Watch who was sent there for rape who swears that the highborn girl had invited him in.

In Riverrun, Gendry could only ever be another Mycah and he'd live one misunderstanding away from death.

(Also, reading y'all has me rethinking my anti-Gendrya stance, so good work.)

[a free shadow]

reading y'all has me rethinking my anti-Gendrya stance, so good work

Re-reading part of the forums is so awesome! And I just now found it...

DogLover, good job with Asha/Qarl, it gave me more of the 3D quality as well :ninja: Not only of their relationship, but of both charcters separately.

[Lady Arya's Song]

Coming out of lurk to thank doglover and booknerd and Rosepapillon for some wonderful posts. I do not have the books as e-books so its hard for me to quote from them and I am still not sure how to post quotes but I wanted to give a heads up to those of you who like the Arya/Gendry and Sandor/Sansa ideas along with the axe analysis. I hope those of you who are much more intelligent than I am will take a look at what I am posting and go re-read the Varamyr prologue. Perhaps do an analysis on it.

Why Varamyr? While reading his prologue I was overwhelmed with the parallels to Arya Sandor and Sandor and Sansa with just a few tweeks which George always seems to do but the overall emotional impression is that we are given more information and emotional clues regarding Arya, Sandor, and Sansa in his thoughts. I will share below a few points but I am hoping someone else will take a look and actually see and write on what I sensed reading his prologue.

1. Varamyr is wounded and thinking back on his childhood and how we wanted to be a great warrior and have songs written about him. Shades of Sandor's childhood playing with a wooden knight pre being burned.

2. Varamyr thinks about how he burned as an eagle and became craven and ran from the battle at the Wall. Shades of Sandor who fought at the Blackwater Bay and snapped and ran from the fire aspect in the battle.

3. Varamyr remembers how he lost everything that Mance Rayder the king had given him by running. He lost his place at the kings' table, and all his gold. Sandor has lost all he once held including his gold and his place in the king's guard.

4. Varamyr thinks about the various places he and the other wildlings were running to. Sandor also is experiencing where to go ..after fleeing KL.

5. Varamyr is hurt when he attempts to take a squirrel skin cloak. Who has been associated with squirrel (Arya) skin (Arya false names are like a covering a skin) and cloak (Sandor and Sansa cloaks).

6. The mother or owner of the squirrel skinned cloak was hit in the back of the head by an axe. Hmmm Catelyn died as Sandor is taking Arya to reunite and Sandor hists Arya in the back of the head with an axe. Martin inverts the story here but the symbols are still there. Arya holds a grudge against Sandor for not rescuing her mother and for hitting her in the head with the axe.

7. The young boy rushes out and stabs Varaymer when he attempts to take the cloak, then the young boy runs away. At the end Arya leaves Sandor when he is wounded and does not give him the gift of mercy that he cries for due to hitting her, killing Mycah etc etc.

8. Varamyr reflects on Haggon his mentor as he is slowly dying. This is curious to me but in some type of emotional way it reminds me of Sandor perhaps relecting on Ned Starks code of honor. Haggon constantly warned Varamyr about abomination..what was not permitted as a warrior or skinchanger. Is it possible that George wrote this as a foil to Ned's honor code and that Sandor has internally off screen made comparison in his head about his actions versus how Ned Stark and the northern old gods would view his actions?

9. Varamyr actually killed Haggon and ate his heart and he reflects that now Haggon seems to be a part of him. He hears his voice in his mind which bothers him with feelings of mixed guilt and anger. Perhaps Sandor has felt guilty for Ned's death in that he was part of a guard that supported a king like Joffrey and stood silent while Ned was beheaded. We do see him slowly trying to protect Sansa as she is being abused by the Lannisters and their court. Did Sandor get a better view of Ned Stark through his conversations with Sansa and contemplate on how much more he would have liked being a guard in the Stark camp? Reflections on killing the butcher boy Mycah?

10. Varamyr reflects on his brother and the fact that his mother never seemed to cry over him. This reminds me of Sandor and the idea that perhaps his father and mother never seemed to protect him from Gregor. A reversal of Varamyr as bump and lump but its there.

11. George seems to then paint Varamyr as a beyond the Wall Gregor Clegane beyond the wall in his treatment of the local women and that he had a name to be feared.

12. Varamyr and the wolves and the second life. He thinks dogs are the easiest to bond with. (Sansa and Sandor symbols). He reflects that women and wolves mate for life. " You take one(skinchange) that's a marriage, the wolf is part of you from that day on. You can befriend a wolf, even break a wolf but never truly tame a wolf. All of this is subtle but very true about Sansa and Sandor. Sandor has changed Sansa and she certainly has changed him but also Arya changed Sandor and he also changed her. He was a father figure in some twisted way to Arya. Not sure about Sandor and Sansa but a role of protector for both girls.

13. He cries out for Thistle, and regrets that he did not take her when he had the chance. I am sure many of you remember Sandor's words to Arya when he thought he was dying in regard to not taking Sansa when he had the chance.

14. Finally he commits abomination with Thistle and it results in Thistle looking remarkable like Lady Stoneheart a wright with scored bloddy cheeks. This is where George Martin reversed it since Sandor actually did not hurt Catelyn, Arya, or Sansa.

15. The very last sentence is " She sees me." It is a reference to Thistle as a wright seeing Varamyr as a wolf. I leave it to someone with much more insight than my poor attempts to explain that..BUT I wonder if perhaps Lady Stoneheart or Sansa will one day meet Sandor again and see him as he really is now..more wolf and northern than the southern dog he used to be. I hope his second life is sweeter.

I have very bad eyes and am not pc savy. Please forgive this very long post. I really am actually asking if someone with much better skills than I have has analyized this prologue and discovered these parallels and can make sense of them. If they were already covered somewhere else then please forgive me for bringing them up here.

I have to say that I have seen other clues regarding Arya that perhaps points to a non future for Gendry and Arya..which makes me sad as I love them together. I have more hope for a future Sandor/Sansa..but we will see.

As for Asha. I have to confess that I read Danny's chapter with Daario and then this Asha chapter with Quarl and the similarities are striking between both women. I sometimes do this..read a chapter of Cersei then Danny then Asha...many parallels jump out that way.

I have never cared for ironborn and I have to confess when Asha killed the Flint man when he was trying to rescue Lady Glover..well I do not have fondness for Asha or ironborn. My bias I guess.

[blacken]

The assumption that Arya is heterosexual is a good example. I do think Arya is being written as heterosexual because of things we see in the books, like she always seems to notice the handsome men like Jaqen and really looks at them, as she does a few times with Gendry. While this is not die hard proof that she is heterosexual, her thoughts and processes do seem to suggests it to me since I see in the way she is written a definite appreciation of the opposite sex.

I distinctly remember Arya thinking of some of the women in Braavos as pretty too, I don't think this indicates attraction, just observation.

[Winter's Knight]

I distinctly remember Arya thinking of some of the women in Braavos as pretty too, I don't think this indicates attraction, just observation.

I actually thought of Jon and Arya as latently bisexual, based on how they note the attractive folk around them. Jon for instance fangirls over Jaime during the feast at WF yet I don't remember him commenting on Cersei.

Similarly Arya seemed appreciative of Lanna in Bravoos.

The thing is, I'm used to reading coded and subtextual references to queerness in books and films because,until the last few years, that is how mainstream media referred to queer characters. In ASoIaF even, that is how Renly/Loras were referred to until the end of Storm.

[Booknerd2]

First off, I just want to say I think you are amazinggggg!!! The Arya/Gendry relationship is one of my favorites! I have to confess I watched the series before I read the books, and the first thing I thought when I saw them interact in the show was they were going to get married and be king and queen, haha! I feel like there is an obvious connection between them in the show so I'm sure I was a bit biased when reading the books. Anyway, when Gendry gets distracted by the mention of Riverrun here, I think he is just coming back to reality a bit. Arya is a highborn lady, offering him a job and things are going to go back to 'normal' where he is a nobody and their relationship will totally change. I think it makes him sad and I think it's another reason he doesn't go.

Thank you! I am blushing. Those essays were just stuff that occured to me during my readings. And this is a great interpretation of the "Riverrun"comment. It plagued me.

I was initially reluctant to include Arya/Gendry, but I'm so happy I was persuaded (it really didn't take much). Booknerd2 has done such a fabulous job with this "ship" and I'm now a believer (sorry, Eric Dayne). And Maisie Williams and

Joe Dempsie have such fantastic onscreen chemistry. I love their scenes together.

by DogLover

Gendrya: Converting people one day at at time. LOL! My new motto. I kid. And yeah, forget that I love them as Gendry and Arya, but as far as my wish for the book ship, they convey the subtlety and spirit of them very well from the books. And I love Ben that plays Hot Pie too. He is laugh out loud, but just like Hot Pie, the character is dead serious when he comes out with stuff and doesn't realize he is funny.

I wanted to hear booknerd2 talk about them, that was my ulterior motive.

:)

by LeCygne

Well played! LOL! Actually it is about two weeks now, and I went back with some hindsight now and read parts of my essays again. I was really in a zone. (Just not-a-lord-zoned.) LOL!. Those five came out fast but it was all ideas and observations I've been sitting on for awhile. Damn, I had a lot to say.

I will have to come back because there are a lot of other responses that popped up, but multi quote isn't working well for me today for some reason.

Thanks again.

[Booknerd2]

Coming out of lurk to thank doglover and booknerd and Rosepapillon for some wonderful posts. I do not have the books as e-books so its hard for me to quote from them and I am still not sure how to post quotes but I wanted to give a heads up to those of you who like the Arya/Gendry and Sandor/Sansa ideas along with the axe analysis. I hope those of you who are much more intelligent than I am will take a look at what I am posting and go re-read the Varamyr prologue. Perhaps do an analysis on it.

Why Varamyr? While reading his prologue I was overwhelmed with the parallels to Arya Sandor and Sandor and Sansa with just a few tweeks which George always seems to do but the overall emotional impression is that we are given more information and emotional clues regarding Arya, Sandor, and Sansa in his thoughts. I will share below a few points but I am hoping someone else will take a look and actually see and write on what I sensed reading his prologue.

12. Varamyr and the wolves and the second life. He thinks dogs are the easiest to bond with. (Sansa and Sandor symbols). He reflects that women and wolves mate for life. " You take one(skinchange) that's a marriage, the wolf is part of you from that day on. You can befriend a wolf, even break a wolf but never truly tame a wolf. All of this is subtle but very true about Sansa and Sandor. Sandor has changed Sansa and she certainly has changed him but also Arya changed Sandor and he also changed her. He was a father figure in some twisted way to Arya. Not sure about Sandor and Sansa but a role of protector for both girls.

Thank you, and I mentioned you in my third essay, regarding the "sniff." I threw out a few thoughts and I liked how you mentioned it was Gendry sniffing Arya, and it might be a tip of the hat to the wolf pack and their bond.

I loved your post. I have to be honest and say that I now have to read that Varamyr part again. That is a lot of info and I read his part once. That chapter gave out so much info, but I didn't nearly process it as well or draw as much from it as you did. And from memory, a lot of what you picked out seems very interesting. I don't even know what to say right now. I have to re-read it and comment later.

But this: the wolf is part of you from that day on.

This just struck me like a ton of bricks. This gives so much street cred and emphasis to Arya including and referring to Gendry and Hot Pie as her pack. Even after they "leave" her. There is a bond there, and I hope she recalls this later in the book if both appear again. She could have said she likes them, they were friends, this is substantial and so much more.

That is what I thought as well. If Gendry does get work at Riverun, he'd not only lose Arya irrevocably but he'd have to live with that under his nose everyday. The most he could hope for was an illicit love affair, something which could never end well for him-there is a member of the Night's Watch who was sent there for rape who swears that the highborn girl had invited him in.

In Riverrun, Gendry could only ever be another Mycah and he'd live one misunderstanding away from death.

(Also, reading y'all has me rethinking my anti-Gendrya stance, so good work.)

by Winter's Knight

I just love this. The entire post. This is what I was feeling but couldn't put into words.

And Gendrya: Converting people since 2013. LOL! Kidding. But some posters said it made them think more about taking another look at this ship, and if it makes people think and a dialogue can be created on this thread for readers that would like one, than all good. I am just a clown; my posts are heavily biased from my opinions of reading this ship.

Which leads me to my next thing. That I have been meaning to respond to you, Blacken. A wonderful, well worded post, that was taking me time to really think about what to post. I didn't forget or choose not to post. It was a lot to take in and I had to think about what to say. It is coming. I believe if people take the time to comment, than they should be answered, plus throwing out ideas and gaining more insight to the books from other's opinions and sharing thoughts/opinions is the whole point of threads, right? There was a lot to cover so I will be back.

[Booknerd2]

Sorry, I didn’t have a chance to address some posts for a few days, so there was a lot of catching up to do.

I really had to think about this, Blacken. Elba the Intoner, did a hell of a better job responding than I ever could.

Multiquote is not working for me today, so I put your quotes that I took in italics from the post.

Dear lord no….those essays I wrote are not the full Arya/Gendry analysis. That’s coming down the road, as are other pairings. I’m just being a clown. Well some of it is funny, some of it is speculation, looking at theories or what ifs, and some of it are just straight out beliefs I hold. My essays were my extremely biased, blatantly subjective, take/angle.

I’m just a poster that volunteered to write some essays, and I speculate and analyze so much, and am personally hopeful because I like the two. So my angle was tongue in cheek, based on my wish list pair. But I do see evidence to back up some of my thoughts. Some very strong, others reaching, some that I can’t read into, and some making more sense with patterns emerging, because some issues, thoughts, actions between the two characters link to other chapters and add or enhance a theory, thought, interpretation that I had.

I basically tried to read into the romance angle. For me, this was not hard, but that is my opinion. I tried to sift through anything that was telling. Honestly, it happened a couple of years ago as a first time reader of the series, and then re-reading…and re-reading again. I see a lot of telling stuff, if one is looking for it, (and then some seem to hit the reader over the head,) which for these essays, I am. There is a lot unsaid too, which are harder to sift through.

If I felt there were no seeds planted for later possibly; nothing there, I would not have written anything. I’d have nothing to write.

Most are written as stream of consciousness. A funny, pretty blunt, retelling of what my impressions were or hopes, things I noted, when I read.

But not all parts are meant to be comedy. I do see themes, patterns, repetition, things that seem like they are reminders and meant to stand out. And sometimes what a character says is not what they mean or is opposite from what they do, etc. So I am a clown 50%, but 50% serious too.

I am usually either joking or usually in my longer paragraphs, I throw out questions, many of them of things to think about or things that struck me. I found a lot of irony and coincidences too. But many of my sentences have question marks after them. Things I wonder that I just can’t interpret or in general are so vague nobody has an answer too by book 5.

But I must say. I highly value your opinion and agree with a bunch of things. But I wanted to make clear that I am only one reader focused on two characters, and my experiences reading them, and am not making general broad statements about women’s issues or traditional expectations, roles, etc.

I talked about a direwolf sipping a glass of brandy, of all things. I am a clown.

“I know this might seem insignificant but it will relate more to what I say later. I believe that the assumption that Arya's lack of concern with her appearance is a result of comparisons to Sansa and bullying by other girls is wrong. Yes those perspectives have influence how she views herself but not all girls, especially and particularly tomboys, value looking pretty and don't think of achieving beauty as a valuable goal. Furthermore the assumption that not prioritising being pretty will fade with the onset of puberty is false.”

I come to that conclusion because she brings stuff up that Sansa, the Septa, Cat, or Jeyne Poole has said to her. I think it made a chink in her armor, but she also waves it away. She sees it, ingests it, chews it a bit, and then lets it roll off her. I don’t think she is dwelling on it, and maybe that didn’t come across. Does she have an awareness of it, yes? Has it hindered her, changed, altered who she is abso-friggin-lutely not. She hates dresses, because she hates dresses. She is not into being a traditional lady now, but there will be a fork in the road, she might be or might not. Or, I like to see her taking a bit of what she likes and tossing what she doesn’t down the road. She’d rather be comfortable, has individual preferences, or whatever. Knows it is not practical for the road? There is evidence she took it a bit to heart though; but it is not her bag, her waving it off and not deterring her and being an individual is what makes Arya so great. It would hinder some people, or some if will wash over, and I think for Arya it is the latter. She knows she stinks at needlework, does not have an interest in it, and then there is the running bit about the name of her sword too. Needle, her sword name, means: “embroidery, my ass.” She is not upset about it; it is just not her thing. But I think it crosses her mind that: I’m not a lady, and it might disappoint her, because maybe she wished it didn’t put a wedge between her and Sansa, and she notes it would make her dealings with Mordane smoother, and it might be nice to please her mother more. I think these things occurred to her, but she compartmentalized. Arya thinks, well, it is what is/ or was for her younger part of life. I am not sure she is dwelling on it much.

But with some of your assumptions…Do you mean me or society in general, make them?

But I wasn’t talking about other girls/females in the world. So I was confused.

I have to make clear I don’t know how she will feel about those things when she is older and am not presuming or assuming anything regarding her being a certain exact way when she is older. If anything, I think my essays all focused more on Gendry than Arya. Hell, I just want them together.

And I mean all of this in a nice way. Please know that. Your essays gave me a lot of food for thought.

I just feel that some of your interpretations are not what I said/meant. I have to say that when I read the feedback, I had to doublecheck it said quote by

Booknerd when I read some of the responses because I was baffled. Your interpretations of what I said, sound more like you than me. In certain cases, it wasn’t even an interpretation of what I said, you started off more on your own opinion, subject matter, and then went off on to broader themes/issues, stereotypes, and a bunch of things that other people might think. More of a critique about how you feel people view things than stuff I said.

“I think you're entirely correct that the more Gendy perceives Arya as a lady and sees her potential as an adult the more angry and sullen he gets, however to me this is reflective of his growing awareness of the rigid class structure in Westeros and not specifically because his and Arya's respective social statuses will prevent them marrying.”

Oh, I totally agree that is an issue for him too.

But then I read the Gendry / Edric chapter and….well….

“Again, I think this plays into widely held assumptions that being 'girly', prioritising looking pretty and dressing nicely are things that tomboys suppress or reject for fear of not meeting expectations and thus suffering a blow to self esteem - essentially saying the desire is there but for one reason or another is not actively pursued or acknowledged.

Speaking from the experience of being a tomboy in childhood and adulthood, I can say this is a false assumption. Such feelings probably do exist for a number of girls and women, however to assume that all girls feel this and react in such ways is basically saying that the desire to look pretty is innate to all girls and no matter how much they appear to not be interested in or value such things they never truly are.”

Again, not making any assumptions about all girls. You lost me with these statements because I don’t recognize it in what I wrote. I really tried to re-read my paragraph again and I don’t’ see it….Or maybe you didn’t mean me???

But if you mean that some people might make assumptions like that, of course some do.

And really, acorns on a green dress? Just pretty horrifying period. I don’t even think Sansa would wear it…lol! Arya hates dresses and probably though acorns were corny/hokey too. I know I do. They look good on freshly mowed grass, not on a dress. Or I think my nephew had a sweater with a squirrel and nuts and it was adorable. He’s 3.

“I think rather than this being some kind of evidence for Arya's romantic feelings, it is probably meant as a parallel to the situation with Micah along the Kings Road. I guess it demonstrates Arya's growing awareness of the class structure she lives in and her responsibility as a highborn person.”

Oh, no,….no evidence at all of romantic feelings. I agree with you. Just that she is brave and caring and truthful. She immediately, and without hesitation, lets the BWB know that she started it. And she seems to try to deflect any blame off him. He did participate. She didn’t wrestle herself. They were both roughhousing. She doesn’t want him to get in trouble. But she was concerned for him. Harwin cuffed him at the able already and Lem just whacked him. She cares about him. But there is potential that it is a “plot seed” for romance later. Meaning, Martin showing us that she cares for him, or it is just another character nugget that Arya is brave, loyal, true, and brutally honest, which she is.

“I think his reactions in the brothel are more likely due to simple embarrassment that he is being forced to talk about sexual matters (his embarrassment upon being propositioned is another example of this) because he is sexually inexperienced, because he is discussing this with a girl and if there's anything masculinity dictates of boys and men is that they are knowledgeable and cool about sex especially in front of girls, and also that he is very aware that it is socially inappropriate for low born people to talk to high born people about sex, the class distinction having very much been on his mind.

One doubts that sex education is taught in Flea Bottom and there's nothing like being ignorant and immature and having others assume that you are knowledgeable and mature to make you embarrassed when called upon to demonstrate this.”

Totally part of it. But he makes it all about her and being a lady. But he still brings it up to Arya again later, in a taunting, maybe I will go ahead with it statement, that is really stupid, but he does it anyway. He goes off on another tangent. Which is funny because at first he is mad that she knows what a brothel is and then he has to throw what goes on in a brothel in her face. It is a childish, defiant, well, maybe I will go do it, threat. It’s corny because…what was the point? And it is hypocritical. The empty threat sounds like: Fine, well, I am going to date someone else, so don’t try and stop me ! Or, that similar cliché threat that people have used.

“Arya calls everyone stupid, including herself. I don't think there is more to read into this, it is just her stock response when someone is being weak, illogical, etc”.

My essay “Hey Stupid” part 6 will be written one day. Really, it is my next planned essay after 5. I am not saying it means she is madly in love, but sort of “affectionate.” She calls him these throwaway stupids and names but she saves him, is protective, and considers him her pack, and that is what is important. My angle is the childhood stupid name-calling, hair-pulling schtick. And I interpret it another way too. Just possibilities, of course. Not love, er, yet, but she does care for him. For every stupid thrown out, every stubborn, bull-headed, remark, she also calls him a member of her wolf pack too. It did hurt when he joined BWB. That is even nicer than friend. I considered her direwolf/stark connection. It means a lot. Even Hot Pie gets the inclusion too. I took it as Gendry is good enough to join her wolf pack. Like the bond I felt they had on the road, history, war buddies, going through all sort of experiences that young, being in a very close living situation/ side by side experiences, as if the author is telling us, yup, a bond was formed. Wolf Pack membership is by invitation only. But some young people do namecall when they have a crush too.

“I think you're accurate that Gendry's hostility is a self-defence mechanism, however I think it is a reaction to the increasingly apparent class differences between them and the unfairness of the class system in Westeros rather than because his hopes they would be married one day be dashed. The BWB is a very real opportunity for Gendry to be respected and treated as an equal, Arya is a constant reminder that whatever status he may attain with the BWB, he is still on the lowest rung of the class ladder in the 'real world'.”

And I love him to death, but he is not that deep, well, all of the time. Not the type to grovel in it…until the Peach and Edric incidents. Which is why a red alert went off in my head at the time I read that. He seems more a let’s get on with it, type of person. With many things, it seems more connected to him and Arya, than solely just issues with himself or the world and his place in it. More personal…The thing is, for me, but remember where I am coming from, and that I want them together, that he was already made a knight and in BWB and he is still angry and acting up, much later. Why now? And when I take the Peach and the Edric Dayne incident together….eh…well… Why is he acting up with a fellow BWB member? Class, money, etc. never bothered him before Arya. It just didn’t. I don’t think he gives a crap just to give a crap about class and background. The BWB took him on as the kid that was smithing so he doesn’t starve, and it is useful to them. Beric made him a knight, but Beric is gone and he is just babysitting or so we’ve seen. Equals? I am not sure he’s viewed that way by them…yet. He is left with two girls at an orphanage. Not comparable to the work the BWB is doing. I don’t think Anguy is much older than him. But the theory circulating now is that it might be for a reason, to find Arya. Again just speculating. And that would make me wrong later about what the BWB is doing with him.

The rest I really don’t know what to say. Deeper, broader, world, societal issues which is not where I was or am coming from. And I mean it with the utmost respect. And the real deal Gendry/Arya analysis that is coming is going to do so much more objective work than I ever could or ever intended with my silly essays.

As far as love sexual preference, marriage, babies etc. People can believe what they wish. I see a little seed planted between the two over the course of two books, and his being without her and the hints of the connection to his being miserable in book 4 for a quick snapshot cameo appearance, stands out for me. And I am totally, unabashedly, 100% biased. And believe me, I posted 5 very, very, very long essays, which pretty much hashed that out.

And there are some things you stated that deflate my hopes a bit in the search for truth and what is going to actually happen in books 6/7 with those two. Because they are strong possibilities on the other end of the ship spectrum too

[Rose-Papillon]

Giving Brienne Oathkeeper -

Cersei: Kill Tyrion and I'll show you a good time?

Jaime: OMG CERSEI, WE CAN'T HAVE SEX IN MY OFFICE! IT WOULD BE TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE. I MEAN, IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE IN A SEPT IN FRONT OF A CORPSE, GEEZ!

Cersei: You used to be cool, man *leaves*.

Jaime: Damn, just missed out on getting laid. Hey, I wonder where Brienne's at?

Brienne: You wanted to see me?

Jaime: lol, nice dress, loser.

Brienne: Jaime, you idiot, you had this made for me.

Jaime: NO, I WAS NOT LOOKING AT YOUR PRETTY EYES!

Brienne: I didn't...love your ass in that cloak.

Jaime: Don't you fucking start, wench. Close the door and come here. Anyway, my Dad's sending Arya to Winterfell, only it's not really Arya and I wanted to tell you so you didn't get yourself killed.

Brienne: Cool.

Jaime: Also, my sister thinks that Sansa and Tyrion killed Joffrey. I want you to...

Brienne: No.

Jaime: LET ME FINISH!

Brienne: No.

Jaime: Urgh, I hate you so much. Here, I got you something *hands over Oathkeeper*.

Brienne: Damn Jaime, this is really neat. I'm touched.

Jaime: I want you to find Sansa and keep her safe for me.

Brienne: *tearing up* I'm...I'm so sorry about before...I

Jaime: STOP THAT! YOU'LL MAKE ME HAVE AN EMOTION! I left you a mare as ugly as yourself in the stables along with a butt tonne of gold. Take it and go.

Brienne: Can't we at least hug first?

Jaime: Ye-NO! GET GOING!

After Brienne leaves, Jaime writes about her lovingly in his journal -

Jaime: The fuck am I doing?

Later, Brienne visits the stables only to find that the mare Jaime left her is the most beautiful horse in Kings Landing -

Brienne: ... Jaime, you fucking twit.

Brienne comes to Jaime in ADWD -

Jaime: As a member of the Kingsguard, I should really get my ass back to King's Landing.

Jaime: U mean back to Cersei, right?

Jaime: SHUT THE FUCK UP, BRAIN!

Lannister man: My Lord, there's a woman here to see you.

Brienne: What up babe? You up for another roadtrip?

Jaime: HELLS YEAH! FUCK THE KINGSGUARD!

Original posts here and here.

[RhaenysBee]

Giving Brienne Oathkeeper -

Cersei: Kill Tyrion and I'll show you a good time?

Jaime: OMG CERSEI, WE CAN'T HAVE SEX IN MY OFFICE! IT WOULD BE TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE. I MEAN, IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE IN A SEPT IN FRONT OF A CORPSE, GEEZ!

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

You are the queen of parody summaries :bowdown:

[Le Cygne]

Lannister man: My Lord, there's a woman here to see you.

Brienne: What up babe? You up for another roadtrip?

Jaime: HELLS YEAH! FUCK THE KINGSGUARD!

:rofl:

Fuck the Kingsguard! Perfect. And I knew the horse was going to be pretty! Jaime is so full of it.

[Isildur's Mane]

Just wanted to pop in and say, I have been lurking and loving all the essays

Giving Brienne Oathkeeper -

<Snip>

This was awesome, made my morning lol

[DogLover]

(Also, reading y'all has me rethinking my anti-Gendrya stance, so good work.)

Gendrya: Converting people one day at at time. LOL! My new motto.

Gendrya--I love it!! :lol:

Re-reading part of the forums is so awesome! And I just now found it...

DogLover, good job with Asha/Qarl, it gave me more of the 3D quality as well :ninja: Not only of their relationship, but of both charcters separately.

Thanks, A Free Shadow! As soon as I find some time, there's more to come (I still have two essays to post, and I want to write something on axe symbolism). I've just been so crazy busy with work the past two weeks. As soon as things slow down I can go back to ignoring my actual responsibilities so I can go back to what really counts--spending countless hours on this forum. :P

Coming out of lurk to thank doglover and booknerd and Rosepapillon for some wonderful posts. I do not have the books as e-books so its hard for me to quote from them and I am still not sure how to post quotes but I wanted to give a heads up to those of you who like the Arya/Gendry and Sandor/Sansa ideas along with the axe analysis. I hope those of you who are much more intelligent than I am will take a look at what I am posting and go re-read the Varamyr prologue. Perhaps do an analysis on it.

Why Varamyr? While reading his prologue I was overwhelmed with the parallels to Arya Sandor and Sandor and Sansa with just a few tweeks which George always seems to do but the overall emotional impression is that we are given more information and emotional clues regarding Arya, Sandor, and Sansa in his thoughts. I will share below a few points but I am hoping someone else will take a look and actually see and write on what I sensed reading his prologue.

<snip>

Very interesting observations! I never noticed the parallels between Varamyr and Sandor/Sansa/Arya before. I'll have to go back and re-read the ADwD's prologue again.

Giving Brienne Oathkeeper -

Cersei: Kill Tyrion and I'll show you a good time?

Jaime: OMG CERSEI, WE CAN'T HAVE SEX IN MY OFFICE! IT WOULD BE TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE. I MEAN, IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE IN A SEPT IN FRONT OF A CORPSE, GEEZ!

Cersei: You used to be cool, man *leaves*.

Jaime: Damn, just missed out on getting laid. Hey, I wonder where Brienne's at?

Brienne: You wanted to see me?

Jaime: lol, nice dress, loser.

Brienne: Jaime, you idiot, you had this made for me.

Jaime: NO, I WAS NOT LOOKING AT YOUR PRETTY EYES!

Brienne: I didn't...love your ass in that cloak.

Jaime: Don't you fucking start, wench. Close the door and come here. Anyway, my Dad's sending Arya to Winterfell, only it's not really Arya and I wanted to tell you so you didn't get yourself killed.

Brienne: Cool.

Jaime: Also, my sister thinks that Sansa and Tyrion killed Joffrey. I want you to...

Brienne: No.

Jaime: LET ME FINISH!

Brienne: No.

Jaime: Urgh, I hate you so much. Here, I got you something *hands over Oathkeeper*.

Brienne: Damn Jaime, this is really neat. I'm touched.

Jaime: I want you to find Sansa and keep her safe for me.

Brienne: *tearing up* I'm...I'm so sorry about before...I

Jaime: STOP THAT! YOU'LL MAKE ME HAVE AN EMOTION! I left you a mare as ugly as yourself in the stables along with a butt tonne of gold. Take it and go.

Brienne: Can't we at least hug first?

Jaime: Ye-NO! GET GOING!

After Brienne leaves, Jaime writes about her lovingly in his journal -

Jaime: The fuck am I doing?

Later, Brienne visits the stables only to find that the mare Jaime left her is the most beautiful horse in Kings Landing -

Brienne: ... Jaime, you fucking twit.

Brienne comes to Jaime in ADWD -

Jaime: As a member of the Kingsguard, I should really get my ass back to King's Landing.

Jaime: U mean back to Cersei, right?

Jaime: SHUT THE FUCK UP, BRAIN!

Lannister man: My Lord, there's a woman here to see you.

Brienne: What up babe? You up for another roadtrip?

Jaime: HELLS YEAH! FUCK THE KINGSGUARD!

Original posts here and here.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :lmao: I'm really going to miss these brilliant posts. Great job, Rose-Papillon!! Thank you so much for sharing!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Just posting so that I can easily find this thread tomorrow as my husband has informed me it is tme to close the laptop and actually engage in conversation with him for the evening. I am very excited and interested to get stuck in to this thread and the ideas explored.

[Queen Elsa]

Even though I have not posted any comments lately in here, I've been following and reading the essays and comments religiously. Thanks booknerd2 for your wonderful essays about Gendry and Arya, Rose-Papillon for your hilarious summary of Jaime and Brienne :D, and DogLover for introducing me to Asha and Qarl (they are not as popular as Gendry/Arya and Jaime/Brienne but they do too have a love story to tell). I'm lovin' this thread so keep the essays and analysis comin'. :)