Worst fantasy literature you've read?

[BLU-RAY]

See, I don't see Jordan as ripping off Tolkien, but instead taking the pattern Tolkien used (which he himself would probably agree, he didn't invent either), and popping down another couple of ages.

That's actually interesting to me.

I don't know what specific scene you are thinking of, but I certainly can't recall anything quite matching that description. Every time Moiraine or anybody fights large numbers of Trollocs it is generally considered a struggle, not easy. Heck, they had a group of powerful channeler's in the most recent book facing an army of Trollocs who barely came out of it alive because they weren't prepared for a fight.

He's referreing to when the party is fleein that city (Baerlon?) and they get flanked by the Trolloc hordes with the Myrddraal. What he neglects to mention is that this wore out Moiraine to the point where they had to hide in Shadar Logoth in order to get away, which led to a bunch of other stuff happening; and it wasn't that easy for her, either.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Tossup between Thomas Covenant and Dragonlance for me.

Disclaimer: I have never read (or tried to read) Brooks, Eddings, Jordan, or Goodkind.

I happen to think Donaldson's Thomas Covenant series is magnificent, but I can understand why people might dislike it. It is the sort of series people tend to either love or hate.

You are, however, very very lucky to have avoided Brooks, Eddings, Jordan, and Goodkind. Brooks is a dull imitator of Tolkien, Eddings is the hack writer's hack writer, Jordan is a mediocrity overcome by greed, and Goodkind is a preachy nutcase.

[Werthead]

as much as i hate to admit it, RA Salvatore has written some utter fucking trash (see: A Passage to Dawn). In his defense, i've heard he only continues to write Drizzt books because Wizards of the Coast owns the right to Drizzt and wont let him kill Drizzt, and also they threatened to hire someone else to write the series if he quit.

Not quite right. Salvatore wanted to kill Drizzt off in The Legacy of the Drow series (The Legacy, Starless Night, Siege of Darkness and Passage to Dawn), but TSR (who were then publishing the books) refused to consider it and indeed threatened to have someone else write the Drizzt books. This led to a two-year stand-off between the publication of Siege of Darkness and the writing of Passage to Dawn, during which time Salvatore kind of accepted TSR's terms and wrote Passage to Dawn (a pretty terrible book) and then the next trilogy (Servant of the Shard, Spine of the World, Sea of Storms). During that process TSR collapsed and were bought by Wizards of the Coast, with a whole new group in charge of the novels. My understanding is that they have asked Salvatore not to kill of Drizzt (for now) but otherwise given him free reign to do what he likes with the character, resulting in the latest novels. So Salvatore is now on much better terms with WotC but yeah, probably would still like to kill Drizzt off. Although I'd much rather they killed of Elminister who is far, far more annoying and cliched.

That's actually interesting to me.

I don't know what specific scene you are thinking of, but I certainly can't recall anything quite matching that description. Every time Moiraine or anybody fights large numbers of Trollocs it is generally considered a struggle, not easy. Heck, they had a group of powerful channeler's in the most recent book facing an army of Trollocs who barely came out of it alive because they weren't prepared for a fight.

That scene in Book 11 is interesting.

SPOILER: KoD

Rand and Logain pretty much easily kill off the Trolloc horde, but only because Lews Therin suddenly seizes control of Rand and unleashes all those Deathgates and air-mines and shit, which the other male Asha'man could then copy. If that hadn't happened Rand and co would have been slaughtered (although I'm guessing they could have Travelled away to avoid the attack). As it was a lot of the 'normal' troops they had with them were killed.

[RaceBannon42]

Pillars of Creation by Terry Goodkind

Shadows of Doom by Ed Greenwood

Its a toss up as to which sucked more for me.

I've never ben able to make it through Lord Foul's Bane either. I've tried like four times.

[williamjm]

I read a bunch of terrible fantasy in high school that I've blocked out, but the Dragonlance ones stick in my mind because of their popularity. I'd change "entertaining" above to "occasionally engaging" and "competently written" to "might pass a junior English class if the teacher thought you were cute." Especially the first trilogy of the main six books: they were pretty horribly done as I recall. I gave the second three a re-read before I moved just so I could throw the books away at last. I didn't mind the loss.

With the first Dragonlance Trilogy it was painfully obvious that Weis & Hickman had never written a book before. The prose is extremely amateurish and the plot was extremely cliched. I still have a certain amount of nostlagia for the series (they were one of the first fantasy books I read), but having re-read them a few years ago, I realise that they are seriously flawed. The second trilogy was a definite improvement, the quality of the prose improved (although W&H would never be particularly great writers), and it did at least have a comparatively original plot.

Some of W&H's non-Dragonlance books are reasonably good, although their prose is still pretty simplistic, there is some original world-building and plotting and some fairly good characterisation in the Darksword or Death Gate books, although those books still have some flaws in them. However, I have just remembered a book by them that deserves to be high on the 'Worst Fantasy' list - "Legacy of the Darksword", a sequel to the Darksword Trilogy which is hideously inconsitent with the original trilogy, manages to completely destory the point of the ending of the first Darksword books and features an utterly pathetic ending of its own.

Although I'd much rather they killed of Elminister who is far, far more annoying and cliched.

I seem to remember Scott Ciencin killed off Elminster in the Avatar books, but then brought him back, which is another piece of evidence for my theory that Ciencin couldn't do anything right.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Doesn't bother me. If you want the major characters to die, well, that's your choice. Not mine. I don't insist on it. It's a rare book/movie/tv series where anybody important dies, and sometimes when they do, it's actually more cheesy.

But then I thought that the death of Wash in Serenity was lame.

Let's not even get into CBD's.

I hadn't ever watched Firefly so when I watched Serenity he seemed just like a background character to me, but I must say to handle a death so melodramatically removes any amount of drama in the act itself, I agree.

I feel like Jordan has too many characters surviving too many close situations for it to be viable anymore. But I need to read the new book when it comes out in paperback to see if anything has changed. I wouldn't put Jordan on my worst list--as up to Book 8 I've read the books at least twice.

In addition to Gardens of the Moon, I think I would probably add any of the Shannara books after the Heritage series--I omit those for nostalgia's sake.

[Galactus]

I seem to remember Scott Ciencin killed off Elminster in the Avatar books, but then brought him back, which is another piece of evidence for my theory that Ciencin couldn't do anything right.

Elminster is the DM's self-insert, and, i believe, Ed Greenwood's character. He won't die.

[Werthead]

I think the point is that Elminster will not die as long as Ed Greenwood has any say in the development of the setting. Elminster also cannot die as he is the Chosen of his goddess, who will (and has) go to some lengths to keep him alive, and also has about fifty contingency resurrection/reincarnation spells on him to protect him in the event of death. His munchkiness was so preposterous that in a recent story they had to banish him to the Nine Hells to put him in a location outside the Realms where none of his buffs or influences would work, and he still survived.

Forgotten Realms is enraging as it is a setting with a lot of potential for telling good stories. But it is too overpowered and too full of munchkin characters. It also relies on the D&D magic system, which is far too overpowered. As a cheesy, basic-level medieval fantasy world, though, it isn't half bad. The biggest mistake they made was when they lost Steven E. Schend as a writer (of the gaming materials, not the novels), as he gave the Realms a lot of convincing backstory and depth it had previously lacked. Sadly, when they went over to 3rd Edition he stopped working on the setting and it was given back to Greenwood (who, amusingly, has ignored a lot of Schend's stuff ever since).

With Jordan, the good guys haven't really lost anyone that important, which in a series this long is unforgivable. The only major character deaths I can think of at all are Pedron Niall (ambivalent), Jaichim Carridin (evil), Aginor, Rahvin, Be'lal, Asmodean (evil), Sammael (evil, possibly in line for reincarnation but I hope not), a few random Tinkers and scenery characters, a few Aes Sedai etc. No-one really important has perished. And it's not like Jordan is lacking in characters he can kill off with no impact to the story.

[sologdin]

No-one really important has perished

i've kinda lost track of the story, so correct me if i'm wrong in believing that moiraine got murdered?

[Wolfdude]

No-one really important has perished

i've kinda lost track of the story, so correct me if i'm wrong in believing that moiraine got murdered?

*** WARNING, TWO SPOILERS FOR TWO POPULAR FANTASY SERIES BELOW ***

That might have been the last book I read. Volume 4, 5 or 6? Not sure which one.

Anyways, they were fighting one of the Forsaken, and she pushed the Forsaken into a portal that leads to oblivion to save the Dragon Reborn, and supposedly perished with the Forsaken. Think of the Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix scene where Sirius Black perishes into an archway of oblivion. Same deal. As far as if she comes back, I have no idea, I gave up on the series well before book ten.

[Ebenstone]

Just having read the Wikipedia entry on Eragon makes me wonder why I even spent the money on it! I haven't read it, but how did the editors not SEE he was retelling Star Wars. I have to admit ALOT of the FR stuff that's out there is BAD, but you are also talking to the guy who was rejected three times by Wizards on my submissions....

I know I'm being a hater but I only made it through the first half of Gardens of the Moon before I put it down, it was pretty awful.

Did the same with Tad Williams, Shadowmarch was pretty boring.

[commando penguin]

I read a bunch of terrible fantasy in high school that I've blocked out, but the Dragonlance ones stick in my mind because of their popularity. I'd change "entertaining" above to "occasionally engaging" and "competently written" to "might pass a junior English class if the teacher thought you were cute." Especially the first trilogy of the main six books: they were pretty horribly done as I recall.

my english teacher in year 9 was an avid Dragonlance fan and that year we had to read the first book of the series. Strangely, this was the same man who got me into ASOIAF.

I still dont understand how he could read asoiaf and not see how badly written the Dragonlance series is

[Papirolle]

Silverfall: Stories of the Seven Sisters by Ed Greenwood is just abysmally bad! :sick:

I bought it many years ago, and it just sat there on my bookshelf. Then finally I read it, and was apalled by how bad he wrote. I can't believe that this is one of the best known writers for Forgotten Realms.

[Zadok]

another vote for Ed Greenwood, thankfully Shadows of Doom is the only book of his I've ever read. the plot was utter nonsense, Elminster couldn't cast spells for some reason and he was travelling with this female ranger that slaughtered everything. just dreadful, I don't know why I forced myself to finish this book.

[The Wolf Maid]

I've learned not to read books written by teenagers (i.e. Amelia Atwater-Rhodes). They're not quite as good as they're reputed to be. And Eragon's plot really sounds like Star Wars...

Has anyone here read William Goldman's The Princess Bride?

[RaceBannon42]

Well Ed gets to write FR books for two reasons....

First, He created the Forgotten Realms, and Two he sells.

I read a couple of his novels that werent cringe worthy, but most of them were just painful.

[Werthead]

No-one really important has perished

i've kinda lost track of the story, so correct me if i'm wrong in believing that moiraine got murdered?

Spoilers ahead:

SPOILER: KoD

Moiraine is alive. She wasn't killed when the gateway exploded, she was captured and imprisoned by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn (the weird snake-like entites who grant wishes and answer questions, last seen in Book 4). Luckily, she foresaw this when she passed through the two gateways in Tear and Rhuidean in Book 4 and prepared a contingency plan, namely penning a letter to Thom Merrilin explaining her predicament. Finally Thom showed the letter to Mat in Book 11, leading to Mat swearing to rescue Moiraine once he'd finished killing tons of Seanchan with shrapnel grenades.

It's unfortunate, but that doesn't make him bad as a character. He's your classic crusty old wizard, and for reasons that go beyond easy understanding, that sort of thing is popular. As far as it goes, everything about him is appropriate. As long as you remember, he is not meant to be a PC, you're golden. (Exceptions would be in his youth, but that's another story).

In contrast, I'd say that Drizzt Do'Urden (for easy example) is meant to be a PC-like character.

Try Rand's list.

Rand's list consists of lots of random Aiel, Tairen soldiers, loyal Asha'man and Aes Sedai etc. When I said main characters I meant one of the leading characters such as Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, Lan, Siuan, Aviendha, Loial, Morgase, Galad, Gawyn etc etc. The highest-profile deaths to date (Jaichim Carridin, Pedron Niall etc) have very much been secondary characters. Major character deaths are not essential to a good series, but they do help in making the series feel unpredictable. Jordan has, to some extent, failed at this. The only area he has succeeded is with the Children of the Light, the most prominent of whom seem to have short-lived character lifes in the books.

One slight problem with having mega-powerful NPCs in the setting is that the DM or author has to come up with some reason why these NPCs aren't handling the latest threat to the Realms. Either the threat is too low-key or there has to be some daft reason these NPCs can't join the battle. In the Return of the Archwizards Trilogy (not that bad, actually), for example, Elminster had to get sucked through a portal and imprisoned in the Nine Hells and Khelben had to be wounded (IIRC) in order for the author to justify his main characters being the heroes.

another vote for Ed Greenwood, thankfully Shadows of Doom is the only book of his I've ever read. the plot was utter nonsense, Elminster couldn't cast spells for some reason and he was travelling with this female ranger that slaughtered everything. just dreadful, I don't know why I forced myself to finish this book.

Spellfire and Shadows of Doom were utter crap (although Spellfire did have the amusing factor of the Band of Heroes forming to take down an great evil only to be totally butchered ten pages later). Crown of Fire and Elminster: The Making of a Mage were at least finishable but only barely. Greenwood also wrecked the promising Cormyrean Trilogy by making the final novel, Death of the Dragon, featuring the final demise of one of the Realms' highest-profile characters, nigh-on unreadably nonsensical.

[Galactus]

Elminster had to get sucked through a portal and imprisoned in the Nine Hells and Khelben had to be wounded (IIRC) in order for the author to justify his main characters being the heroes.

I don't have that problem: The FR is threatened by about 50 different world-destroying plot at any give time. Even Elminster can't deal with *all* of them

(although Spellfire did have the amusing factor of the Band of Heroes forming to take down an great evil only to be totally butchered ten pages later). '

It's amusing really, but a lot of D&D novels actually tend to have a certain amount of.... Levity. As in, they don't take themselves entirely seriously. The writers tend to be pretty familiar with the foibles of fantasy.

[add-on]

The Eyes of God by John Marco. I read his first trilogy (something about a Jackal?) when I was younger, and I remembered liking it alot. So when I saw he had a new book, I thought I'd try it out. Bad idea. Worst part is, he put out a sequel which means someone, somewhere, must like it.

As far as Jordan goes, is it just me, or has there been a steady decline in the quality of his prose? I haven't read the earlier ones in awhile, but IMO the last couple have just been awful in that regard.

Werthead,

SPOILER: KoD

Aren't you forgetting a certain "high profile" tinker? Certainly not a major character death, and definitely not unforeseen, but Aram's death is still probably the most major to this point.

Personally, I'm just glad I found this board when I did. It's saved me from the likes of Goodkind, Eddings, Paolini, etc.

[HimOfTwoFaces]

The worst I've read has probably been a werewolf trilogy by Alice Borchardt, who happens to be Anne Rice's sister. Come to think of it, the excerpts of Rice's books I've read online have been pretty laughably bad as well, but I don't know if they count as fantasy.

The worst mainstream fantasy author I've read has been Eddings, and I've only read what many of his fans seem to consider his best. How this guy still has so many fans is beyond me.

Simon of Steele -- I recently purchased the paperback versions of Gardens of the Moon and Deadhouse Gates. Please, don't tell me I just wasted my money.

add-on -- I noticed that, too, about Jordan's writing. Did anybody else get the urge to rewrite major sections of KoD for him, or am I just that much of a nerd? I was seriously tempted to post a revised version of the first chapter on Wotmania, until I realized what a stupid idea that was.