Emperor of Thorns (The Broken Empire Trilogy #3) by Mark Lawrence (SPOILERS)

[AncalagonTheBlack]

I just finished the last book in this series,enjoyed it as much as the first two books. :thumbsup:

A the end,after Jorg is dead,we meet his data-ghost.

Who made him ? was he made after Jorg's death or has he been there all along (in some way or form) ?

[red snow]

You could probably spoiler tag the whole thread and we can all join in when we are finished. I very cautiously checked it to see whether it was a spoiler thread or not. At least you have played it safe :)

Shouldn't be too long until it's safe to click on that spoiler tag...

[Warden of the South (East)]

Really enjoyed the conclusion of the trilogy, delighted I waited until this was nearly at release before beginning the series. I hate the wait between books! *cough* Winds of Winter..

Anyone get the description of the All-Throne? I can't recall exactly as I flew through to find out what happened at the end, but it sounded like 'ye olde' Electric Chair to me. Also, the custodian references were hilarious!

[Garlan the Gallant]

When does the audiobook come out?

[polishgenius]

@ Warden of the South East

Great call on the throne being an electric chair, I missed that. And them all revering the janitor was hilarious. I did also enjoy the mighty gilden gate essentially being airport security repurposed for magic, too.

@ Ancalagon:

It says there in that chapter: Brews created the data ghost through details collected off the ring Jorg was wearing.

Other things:

Two minor quibbles I had with the book:

The chapter in the afterworld could have been three or four and imo should have. I suspect the aim was for a dreamy vagueness but it just came off as abrupt. Made an otherwise brilliant ending seem a bit quick. The epilogue bit was perfect though.

The presentation of the Church. Don't get me wrong, despite being Catholic I'm all for criticism of the Church overall, but here it was just needlessly, relentlessly grotesque and rather came out of nowhere as in the previous two books the Church (as opposed to individual priests) had been a minor background presence.

My favourite bits:

Jorg discovering that he loves his son by straight-up murdering his guards was an amazing scene. That was this whole series, summarised right there.

The dead king and his kingdom were cool and creepy. And while I worked out very early on who he was - it could have been subtler... - it didn't click with me what that meant for the 'two Ancraths' prophecy till quite late and that was an air-punching moment when it did.

I liked the revelations of the builder ghosts and their conspiracies and plans, that was cool.

[flinn]

Good read. I liked the entire series. I agree with those above, it could have used several more chapters, or even another book. Either way it was more than satisfying. I also really liked Mark's take on things in his notes at the end. As far as I am concerned, if a person is a good writer, and they write a good trilogy with a good ending they will become the cash cow. People will buy the next books in the next trilogy. Something I will be looking forward to as well. Dark and gritty is the popular trend in fantasy and Mark Lawrence seems to have a good handle on it. I can't think of a character as outright bad as Jorg that you can still root for and hope for victory.

[Mark Lawrence]

When does the audiobook come out?

US - I was told today - if it doesn't let me know.

UK - October 3rd, delayed to keep the same narrator.

[flinn]

Really enjoyed the conclusion of the trilogy, delighted I waited until this was nearly at release before beginning the series. I hate the wait between books! *cough* Winds of Winter..

Anyone get the description of the All-Throne? I can't recall exactly as I flew through to find out what happened at the end, but it sounded like 'ye olde' Electric Chair to me. Also, the custodian references were hilarious!

Laugh, I feel the same way. I finished the first two books about a month ago so hardly any wait at all. I DREAD unfinished series now and do my best to avoid starting them.

Brandon Sanderson's new series is the exception, I know he will be churning out books and it is a great book.

No doubt I will be picking up ML's next book as well. This past trilogy was fast.

[Garlan the Gallant]

US - I was told today - if it doesn't let me know.

UK - October 3rd, delayed to keep the same narrator.

It's not up on Amazon nor is it on iTunes. I found a link to a pretty highly priced version on recorded audio's website. I am really hoping I don't have to shell out $109, as seen below:

http://www.oneclickaudio.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=rb.show_prod&book_id=93825&prod_id=9B0883

:(

[Mark Lawrence]

It's not up on Amazon nor is it on iTunes. I found a link to a pretty highly priced version on recorded audio's website. I am really hoping I don't have to shell out $109, as seen below:

http://www.oneclicka...&prod_id=9B0883

:(

I'm repeatedly assured that audible have the files for the US version and it will be available as soon as somebody gets off their arse and puts it on the list...

[Warden of the South (East)]

I'd agree with that Flinn, it's especially bad with aSoIaF because its so unresolved and convoluted that it breeds hysteria in forums such as these, where we all torture ourselves with increasingly ridiculous hypotheses to quell the frustration. And then the wait from Winds to Spring, I shudder at the thought. Anybody who can publish within a year is doing pretty well for themselves.

@polishgenius/to whom it may concern

I have a soft spot for antagonists and antiheroes throughout various media formats, so it was easy to love Red Jorg *claps hand across chest*. But his ruthlessness and trickery were immense in EoT alright, I revelled in the skull bashing at Congression as well as the aforementioned downfall of Captain Harran (and his successors). The builders influence slowly won my admiration also, I wasn't sure if I liked it in PoT in the arms bunker under Castle Red, but it really came to the fore in the end, I need more now! :P

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Was there a shoutout to WH40K there?

An emperor empowered by the prayers and beliefs of his subject and protected by golden armored "custodians"

[Jangles]

Thanks so much Mr. Lawrence! Great conclusion to a great trilogy. Sad to see that Jorg's story is done, but I understand the reasons.

Poor custodian! Wish I could have been a fly on the wall for when they figured out what he was saying, lol.

Hope we can see some more stories in this world, maybe preceding Jorg's time, closer to the beginning of the "Observer Era".

Anyways, thanks again for the great reads!

[peterbound]

Was there a shoutout to WH40K there?

An emperor empowered by the prayers and beliefs of his subject and protected by golden armored "custodians"

Gods, don't make that comparison. I like the 'Thorns' novels, and can't stand to think of them as in any way inspired by that fucking warhammer shit.

[Mark Lawrence]

Was there a shoutout to WH40K there?

An emperor empowered by the prayers and beliefs of his subject and protected by golden armored "custodians"

I think the fact I had to google WH40K will answer that one :)

[The Lord's Kiss]

I'm just about 10% done and my penchant for clicking on spoiled threads has got the better of me.

It sounds like Jorg's reign is not to be, which is pretty disappointing to me. I was hoping for the next trilogy to feature a character who had been screwed over by Jorg time and time again, seeking vengeance in some way. I always figured the castles were either malls or airports after the "No Overnight Parking" sign from the Tall Castle. I did the same stupid thing with King of Thorns. I knew Jorg would be pulling a gun on Egan rather than Orrin, but still enjoyed the read immensely. For some reason I exist to spoil myself, but I also got to experience the rockslide, avalanche, Queen Miana's ruby throw of death, Ferrakind and Gog(RIP), the journey from Heimrift to Morrow and the madness at the Cantalona Marshes (Brother Sim!!11 :( ) and let us bot forget Jorgy's all-consuming firebender that somehow leaches both the fire magic and necromancy that still inhabited his heart. I hope none of the Brothers leave us in Emperor. If Red Sir Kent or, even worse, Sir Lord Makin or Chancellor Coddin bites it I will just be so sad.

Thank you, Mark Lawrence for these books. Even tho I have yet to finish your third, it is very refreshing to see something so original and well-written from one person's POV. I will be buying all of your future titles, because it is obvious how hard you work.

[Manfryd Lothston]

All right, you asked for it...

Emperor of thorns: Powerful but ultimately disappointing

Mark Lawrence’s final installment in his “Thorns” series is a tour-de-force that ends abruptly on a high note, severing expectations and leaving this reader hung up in limbo.

Lawrence has always had a penchant for short but powerful fiction, his first two books so terse and laconic it really put him apart from the usual lengthy fantasy fare of sprawling vistas, epic plots and character proliferation. Instead of treading in footsteps of G.R.R. Martin, Gene Wolfe, or R.Scott Bakker, who build worlds over decades, Mark took the new-wave approach of dark, gritty, short-lived storytelling in the likes of Joe Abercrombie, but cranked it up a dozen notches by focusing all attention on one character and compressing the scope to a few key events told in energetic, bloody bursts. His language is simple, his tone direct, the only cession to narrative complexity being the extensive flashback backstories that serve to strengthen tension and culminative impact. This is all supremely appropriate for the tale he tells, of a betrayed and disenchanted youth ruthlessly breaking through tragic past and gruesome present for ambition and revenge.

In this manner, the final book of the series does not fail: it is just as gripping, if not more so, than the previous two, delivers a plethora of vicious plot turns and a spectacular, flashy ending.

However, everything has its price. And in my eyes, the price paid for this flashiness was dear: narrative coherence, character depth, and adequate closure were all sacrificed for the dubious benefit of brevity. Plot lines were left hanging and unresolved, built-up characters deteriorated into grey goo, logic went out the window at some point, and the final paragraphs go so much against the previously established spirit of the series it is frankly puzzling. The whole thing feels like a “coitus interruptus” (grievous sin even according to the Church of that world).

So let me elaborate a bit (warning: spoilers ahead).

To begin with, Jorg's disregard for the rules eventually becomes unrealistic:

1. The killings of Gilded Guard captains would not go unpunished if it were truly a Praetorian Guard-type organization (which historically was known to make and break Roman Emperors, to speak nothing of the lower nobility). At the very least they could physically overwhelm and secure him and his small retinue (including his pregnant wife) in such a way that, while preserving their lives, would render them completely harmless (trussing up like pigs comes to mind).

2. The killing of almost 20 men in a small room using only a wooden rod. Regardless of how skillful a fighter he may be, that is just unrealistic: these men were, mostly, trained warriors and even wearing armour. Admittedly the book itself makes a reference to Bruce Lee fighting a crowd of mooks; but emulating old Hong Kong martial arts flicks is not the way to achieve gritty realism and believability.

3. The blatant killing of the Pope goes against the book’s own proclaimed idea that world is actually shaped by belief; whatever the Pope’s personal shortcomings, as head of the Christian Church she’s a powerful symbol – probably at least as powerful as the Emperor, if not more so. Her death would have been a blow to all Christendom and, consequently, weakened the people against the onslaught of the dead hordes. Of course, Jorg might have had personal ulterior motives for seeking her death (revenge and power struggle); but this brings out another inconsistency of his character:

On the other hand, Jorg shows bouts of grand mercy not at all fitting with his established ruthlessness:

He does not explode the nuclear device at Hamada. This is really a disappointing choice. What made Jorg so intriguing since the first book was his willingness to go all the way to get what he wants. That set him far apart from the usual mold of sappy, moral fantasy heroes, made him unique and interesting. His acts at Gelleth were the crowning moment of awesome in the first book. And here, he gets a chance to repeat that experience, reaping much greater rewards:

a. Revenge against the people who plotted to poison his family and frame him for the murder (Qalasadi, Ibn Fayed): for the old Jorg, that alone would have been reason enough.

b. Crippling the Moorish threat to Horse Coast by destroying the entire capital of Liba; that would have earned him the graces and loyalty of all Southern Christian kingdoms, made Moorish votes far less consequential, and demonstrated once again his ability to crush his enemies with ultimate deadly force – that of nuclear holocaust.

c. Obtaining the good will of BOTH Builder Factions: Michael's faction by implementing their plan of destroying Hamada, and Fexler's faction by protecting Builders from Ibn Fayed's intentions to destroy all Builder devices.

d. Gaining even more Necromantic and Fire power by sucking in the souls of the dead and the energy of the explosion (a vaguely described process which led to Jorg having amazing magical powers after destruction of Gelleth and killing of the Firemage). This power could well be enough to crush not only Arrow, but also Ancrath and any other kingdom Jorg chose to conquer before the Elections. At the Elections, he could have just gone the Dead King route and broke down the Gilden Gate to enter the Throne Room.

Instead, Jorg chooses to walk into the lion's den and make friends with the people who betrayed him and tried to kill his family. Since when is this book about making friends with the enemy? Especially when doing so was incredibly risky and of dubious benefit, whereas destroying them would have been both easy and extremely rewarding!

Being a goody-two-shoes, charismatic friend-maker was Prince Arrow's job. Jorg was supposed to be an opposite of that!

So, Jorg has undergone an unfortunate change: his feats have become unrealistic, and his failings to act have undermined the essence of his character.

But he’s not the only victim: at least he got enough coverage; with others, the situation is far more grievous:

1. Katherine Ap Scorron: the deeply developed and highly promising love-hate relationship between her and Jorg is left completely in the dust, unexplored and unfinished, with no more than a couple of inconsequential sentences in the entire “grand finale”. That was such a disappointment!

2. Olidan Ancrath: the Father figure who provided the drive for most of Jorg’s character over 2.5 books is left completely without closure as well. Jorg doesn’t even get to meet him! He simply dies off-stage, like a phased-out sitcom character whose actor had cancelled his contract. No explanation for the reasons of his action, no final confrontation, nothing! Another incredible disappointment!

3. All those secondary characters that are introduced for seemingly no apparent reason and then abandoned. Like the Queen of Red, Silent Sister, and others.

Instead, we get a – frankly, needless - express journey into the mind of William, Jorg’s younger brother who died in the thorns. And we are led to believe that, in this world of viciousness and revenge, this entity of ultimate darkness who has scoured the Deadlands for a decade and built up an incredible army of undead, demons and undead demons, will break apart into sobbing tears and lovingly embrace his long-lost brother after just one sacrifice? That really, really smells like a cop-out. And the final line about these two murderous fiends finding a Heaven together? What is this, a Victorian lady-novel, where everyone finds redemption and “lives happily ever after”?

I didn’t sign up for this; the “Prince of Thorns” didn’t sign up for this; I wouldn’t go so far as to say “betraying the franchise”, but these words did cross my mind at one point.

Those are all bitter pills, and, to be completely honest, I did not understand the need to go down these roads, sacrificing the good and original parts of the series to get a rushed, flashy but ultimately empty and disappointing ending that didn't do justice to any of the characters. Pity, as I was really hoping we'd get something different with this author. Instead, we get more of the usual anti-hero-turned-hero drivel, compounded by writing that is, in important parts, inelegant and rushed. Now that I've read "Emperor", I'm pretty sure Lawrence's future books will follow the same template. Pity.

P.S. Please bear in mind that this is all personal opinion. I will be glad to engage in a constructive discussion. I really wanted to like this series, and did for two and a half books, but the ending just blew it for me.

P.P.S. Lawrence himself replied to my review here. We've had quite a little discussion there.

[Mark Lawrence]

P.P.S. Lawrence himself replied to my review here. Unfortunately he didn't have anything to say except that "he and everyone else loves the ending".

Well it seemed fair comment to me :) I've had close on a hundred private emails and dozens of reviews all of which seem pretty nailed on it being an ending they really appreciated. You don't agree - that's fine... I'm not going to try and argue you out of the way you feel point by point...

Seems you joined SffWorld just to make the post - but it's a good forum one, so stick around why don't you :D

[Mark Lawrence]

For fun I've started a poll. If you've read all three books of the Broken Empire (and I really hope you have if you're in this thread) then which was 'best'?

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=5207f5e3e4b0dc6104ade77c

[Manfryd Lothston]

Well it seemed fair comment to me :) I've had close on a hundred private emails and dozens of reviews all of which seem pretty nailed on it being an ending they really appreciated.

I am not pretending to be a part of the majority. In fact, the reason I was drawn to your series was that it showed promise of going outside the usual "comfort zones" of fantasy literature.

You don't agree - that's fine... I'm not going to try and argue you out of the way you feel point by point...

Of course, you don't have to do that. We all have our opinions. But if you would like a discussion on the subject of your books, I'd be glad to participate (as would many others, I believe).

Seems you joined SffWorld just to make the post

Well, as I said you don't have an official forum, and that one had your posts in it, so I figured why not. Didn't know you were also active here on ASOIAF ;)