R+L=J v. 56

[sabrecmc]

Remember that Vulture.com interview Sean Bean gave where he all but confirmed that Ned wasn't Jon's dad? Does anyone have a link? My mad Google skillz are failing me.

[Dio Forel]

Remember that Vulture.com interview Sean Bean gave where he all but confirmed that Ned wasn't Jon's dad? Does anyone have a link? My mad Google skillz are failing me.

My money’s on the mother being Ned’s dead sister and the father being Rhaegar Targaryen. If Ned swore to protect his dead sister’s son from his own best friend, the best way of doing that would have been to claim him as his own and take him in. Ned really knows who [Jon’s parents are], but he can’t let on. That’s why it’s such a moving moment, those poignant scenes I have with Kit Harington [who plays Jon], because I couldn’t say what I really thought. There are so many things I could have said, because there is a love there between the two of them, but I can’t express it as overtly as I can with the other children, who I can hold and kiss. Even if I were his true father, I can’t talk about it for fear of offending my wife, who’s really bitter about this. So it’s really a cruel situation. Through no fault of his own, Ned took on a lot by taking Jon in.

It doesnt really give anything away. It is just saying no matter what the truth is... Ned was "damned if he does, damned if he doesnt". No matter what Ned knows... He could never show it. All he could do was go along with his promise. I still say r + l = j , but that interview didnt push me anymore in that direction than where i started.

[Greymoon]

I think this misogynist view is easier to apply to Cersei than it is to Lyanna, though. It's less likely that, with the possible exception of Jon Connington who has his own bias, Lyanna is viewed as a seductress primarily because she is relatively young and her lover is in the penultimate position of power in this society. She is more disenfranchised and has less agency in general.That said, we know so little of Lyanna, she may have in fact been more aggressive in the affair.

My impression, is that while there's a clear prejudice against women in the south of Westeros - not counting Dorne. The prejudice is less obvious and in parts absent in the North as exemplified by the Mormont women, Lyanna herself, Arya and Alys. I'm adding also, a parenthesis for Asha. And though it's not sufficient for a proper conclusion, I'm suggesting that the Institution of the High Septon plays its part in the prejudice. This argument is underscored by the fact that women cannot become Maesters.

The counter argument here, is that Arianne Martell keeps to the Seven. That's why, I'd rather be cautions, and will claim that it's not the Faith of the Seven itself, but the institution headed by the High Septon that perpetuates prejudice. The faith of the Old Gods however seems to care little for genders, and the religion does not seem institutionalized. We have yet to see an order of priests, servants etc.

Bear with me, I’m about to make some gigantic generalizations here - the source of the argument, comes from an anthropological study of marriage in a patriarchal society, a modern one. Though I think there are some similarities to be found, with Christian discourses and medieval practices/representations of women...thus I think it’s not too much of a stretch to apply this to the Kingslanding/the Institution of the Seven

In societies where such view exist/have existed, women were/are portrayed two ways:

1) a child, with no agency

2) a 'femme fatale' - a seductress hell bent on making men sin – were conversely the man is depicted as having no agency of his own. He has no control of his lust.

There's also the third figure:

3) a womb, an object to be sold/bought/leased to produce a child – this figure I’m disregarding because it seems irrelevant to the argument.

Often one single woman can at different times of her life, and viewed from different perspective take up two, or even all three roles at once.

I'd just say, that Lyanna in the eyes of Robert fits the figure of the 'innocent child, with no agency' while in the eyes of Cersei she's more of the 'femme fatale'... that Rhaegar has power, and a higher status than Lyanna, IMO, does not matter to people that view the Prince in a positive light, because voluntarily or not, they might tend towards the opinion, that both Elia and Lyanna, were agents of Rhaegar's dishonor.

• Connigton does not have a very good opinion on Elia,
  
• Cersei I believe, thinks that had Rhaegar married her, rather than Elia, he'd never have looked at Lyanna twice.
  
• Viserys also blames Elia and Dany.
  
• Barristan also, seems to make an apology of Rhaegar, when he tells Dany that Elia was good, but had a fragile health. Do I remember this wrong?
  

Neither are reliable POVs/opinions, but the general scheme is there - Rhaegar is innocent, it's the women that are to blame. Though of course Robert, Ned, Doran and Oberyn view this in a different light.

[Alia of the knife]

:agree: After all, Ned would want to protect his own children as well as Jon. Allowing young innocents to hear a hint of the "truth" as opposed to the King's version would be highly dangerous, no?

As for magueritas- I sympathize! My worst alcohol experience ever was due to "just" two margueritas :stillsick:

Agreed, my sense is that Ned just didn't offer up any information on the subject, allowing people to think what they will until they came too close, and when the subject did come up, he violently changed the subject.

I'm not going to deny that the roots of my hair still ache and I'm glad for an extra day off. :lol:

I always assumed Ned told the official version to his kids. It would be inappropriate someone else to tell his kids what has happened. And any other version would bring new questions and led them to danger...

And, ladies, toughen up :)... My worst alcohol experience was in Russia... with some home-made vodka... I didn't know my name for almost a week... :)

I think that is essentially what happened, and if his children did hear the gossip, he just encouraged them towards the official version.

And on my delicate condition, :lol: I have one word for you- TEQUILA. :stillsick:.

It's the kind of stuff where you think you are okay, UNTIL you stand up. Lets just say I'm glad I didn't live far.

[Alia of the knife]

My impression, is that while there's a clear prejudice against women in the south of Westeros - not counting Dorne. The prejudice is less obvious and in parts absent in the North as exemplified by the Mormont women, Lyanna herself, Arya and Alys. I'm adding also, a parenthesis for Asha. And though it's not sufficient for a proper conclusion, I'm suggesting that the Institution of the High Septon plays its part in the prejudice. This argument is underscored by the fact that women cannot become Maesters.

The counter argument here, is that Arianne Martell keeps to the Seven. That's why, I'd rather be cautions, and will claim that it's not the Faith of the Seven itself, but the institution headed by the High Septon that perpetuates prejudice. The faith of the Old Gods however seems to care little for genders, and the religion does not seem institutionalized. We have yet to see an order of priests, servants etc.

Bear with me, I’m about to make some gigantic generalizations here - the source of the argument, comes from an anthropological study of marriage in a patriarchal society, a modern one. Though I think there are some similarities to be found, with Christian discourses and medieval practices/representations of women...thus I think it’s not too much of a stretch to apply this to the Kingslanding/the Institution of the Seven

In societies where such view exist/have existed, women were/are portrayed two ways:

1) a child, with no agency

2) a 'femme fatale' - a seductress hell bent on making men sin – were conversely the man is depicted as having no agency of his own. He has no control of his lust.

There's also the third figure:

3) a womb, an object to be sold/bought/leased to produce a child – this figure I’m disregarding because it seems irrelevant to the argument.

Often one single woman can at different times of her life, and viewed from different perspective take up two, or even all three roles at once.

I'd just say, that Lyanna in the eyes of Robert fits the figure of the 'innocent child, with no agency' while in the eyes of Cersei she's more of the 'femme fatale'... that Rhaegar has power, and a higher status than Lyanna, IMO, does not matter to people that view the Prince in a positive light, because voluntarily or not, they might tend towards the opinion, that both Elia and Lyanna, were agents of Rhaegar's dishonor.

• Connigton does not have a very good opinion on Elia,
  
• Cersei I believe, thinks that had Rhaegar married her, rather than Elia, he'd never have looked at Lyanna twice.
  
• Viserys also blames Elia and Dany.
  
• Barristan also, seems to make an apology of Rhaegar, when he tells Dany that Elia was good, but had a fragile health. Do I remember this wrong?
  

Neither are reliable POVs/opinions, but the general scheme is there - Rhaegar is innocent, it's the women that are to blame. Though of course Robert, Ned, Doran and Oberyn view this in a different light.

I think it's fair to say that there is an analogy of the Faith of the Seven to Christianity where prior to Christianity, particularly in the Celtic traditions, women had more choices, equality, as well as a seeming focus on the matriarchal aspects of Celtic society, and it's my speculation that the North symbolizes at least some of those Celtic traditions.

A better overview of the North was what I was hoping for when Martin was supposed to follow up with "She Wolves of Winterfell," in the next "Dunk & Egg" installment, but he opted for more focus on the Targaryen women.

In the eleventh century, Ireland was referred to as "Eire," a form of "Eriu" one of the three sovereign goddesses in Celtic mythology, and also called "the island of Banba of the women." - Mary Condren, "The Serpent and the Goddess, Women, Religion and Power in Celtic Ireland."

Though those religions also held to a "balance" of the two genders, they don't appear to have stigmatized women in the way that "Christianity" did.

I think what we see is everyone looking for a reason for what happened.

Those reasons range from throwing Elia for her health, to if only Rhaegar had married the magnificent Cersei, (though my theory is that he saw through Cersei the minute he looked into her eyes), to if only Dany had been born earlier.

I think the point is, is that I don't actually think any of them would have stopped Rhaegar from loving Lyanna, which is the poison Selmy refers to, given that Robert was never able to get past Lyanna despite being married to Cersei, and Dany reminds men of other women.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Agreed, my sense is that Ned just didn't offer up any information on the subject, allowing people to think what they will until they came too close, and when the subject did come up, he violently changed the subject.

I'm not going to deny that the roots of my hair still ache and I'm glad for an extra day off. :lol:

I think that is essentially what happened, and if his children did hear the gossip, he just encouraged them towards the official version.

And on my delicate condition, :lol: I have one word for you- TEQUILA. :stillsick:.

It's the kind of stuff where you think you are okay, UNTIL you stand up. Lets just say I'm glad I didn't live far.

My husband, who is strictly a beer drinker, calls it "TO-KILL-YA" :lol:

Having said that- it's all about the size of the glass. Two margueritas in bucket sized glasses (my experience) are probably worth about 12 beers.

I forgot to comment on Mladen's post about Summerhall:Rhaegar and Sack:Jon the other day, as I was having a somewhat slow weekend myself. Basically, I am in agreement. I had an idea and went looking for the quote about Summerhall being caused by betrayal but I couldn't find it. I wondered if we could draw a parallel using that statement with what we know about the Sack, possibly even leading back to some theorizing about what did happen prior to Summerhall.

If anyone can fish it, or point me to the chapter I'd appreciate it :)

[Alia of the knife]

My husband, who is strictly a beer drinker, calls it "TO-KILL-YA" :lol:

Having said that- it's all about the size of the glass. Two margueritas in bucket sized glasses (my experience) are probably worth about 12 beers.

I forgot to comment on Mladen's post about Summerhall:Rhaegar and Sack:Jon the other day, as I was having a somewhat slow weekend myself. Basically, I am in agreement. I had an idea and went looking for the quote about Summerhall being caused by betrayal but I couldn't find it. I wondered if we could draw a parallel using that statement with what we know about the Sack, possibly even leading back to some theorizing about what did happen prior to Summerhall.

If anyone can fish it, or point me to the chapter I'd appreciate it :)

That is what I typically refer to it, and yes, the glasses were the size of a bowl, lol.

And I think per Mladens post, there are some interesting parallels to Rhaegars birth and Summerhall, and Jons birth and the sack of KL.

Edit: Here is a to link a thread that I thought you might like regarding the blood motif. Though it has stalled a little, the information is wonderful.

[Ygrain]

My husband, who is strictly a beer drinker, calls it "TO-KILL-YA" :lol:

Having said that- it's all about the size of the glass. Two margueritas in bucket sized glasses (my experience) are probably worth about 12 beers.

I forgot to comment on Mladen's post about Summerhall:Rhaegar and Sack:Jon the other day, as I was having a somewhat slow weekend myself. Basically, I am in agreement. I had an idea and went looking for the quote about Summerhall being caused by betrayal but I couldn't find it. I wondered if we could draw a parallel using that statement with what we know about the Sack, possibly even leading back to some theorizing about what did happen prior to Summerhall.

If anyone can fish it, or point me to the chapter I'd appreciate it :)

Do you mean this one, from Barristan?

Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father’s wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

It was discussed some time ago that there is a parallel between Rhaegar and Duncan, both of them choosing a "forbidden" love and losing their lives and kingdom for her.

ETA: This also sparked Apple Martini's thread about Olenna Redwyne being the spurned bride of Duncan.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Do you mean this one, from Barristan?

Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father’s wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

It was discussed some time ago that there is a parallel between Rhaegar and Duncan, both of them choosing a "forbidden" love and losing their lives and kingdom for her.

ETA: This also sparked Apple Martini's thread about Olenna Redwyne being the spurned bride of Duncan.

That's it! Thank you :)

So, just briefly because I have to run out the door in a moment- we have a prince "following his heart", followed by treason and turmoil and then the death of three family members. I must give this some more thought.

I remember the Olenna thread, I think we were all part of the RLJ conversation that led to that theory. I just may go back a peruse it a bit later while I mull this over.

That is what I typically refer to it, and yes, the glasses were the size of a bowl, lol.

And I think per Mladens post, there are some interesting parallels to Rhaegars birth and Summerhall, and Jons birth and the sack of KL.

Edit: Here is a to link a thread that I thought you might like regarding the blood motif. Though it has stalled a little, the information is wonderful.

Thank you for reposting that link. I had meant to check it out the other day and forgot to go back to it. It puts me in mind of some of the blood symbolism exchanges we've had here. Also, thewingedwolf had an interesting thread a while back about the Masonic symbolism in asoiaf and I heartily agree on his posit that Lyanna's womb=the Grail. Again, something I need more time to think about :P

[Rhaegar's Love]

Remember that Vulture.com interview Sean Bean gave where he all but confirmed that Ned wasn't Jon's dad? Does anyone have a link? My mad Google skillz are failing me.

Is it this one?

http://www.vulture.c...ext_for_ga.html

I had only suggested Bran heard what happened to Lyanna via Robert because the whole protecting them from the truth (as was pointed out by Lady Gwnhyfvar (thought I had put that bit in my post but I guess it got lost between my brain and the keyboard. It happens more than I like to admit) that he did with his brother's death) that Ned had going kind of stuck out to me and it's a pretty harrowing thing to explain to a young kid, especially if it was going with the King's version. That's the only reason I suggested Robert. :)

With Old Nan, how much do you think she knows/knew? She has been at WF for a long time. Is it possible Lyanna ever confided in her about Rhaegar, since there seemed to be no mom in the picture? Did she possibly figure out that Jon is Lyanna's son but agreed with Ned it was best to let things be? I know her memory hasn't been the greatest but it could have been a lot better 16 years ago. She wouldn't be able to prove much of anything, at least about Jon, if she is still alive but could at least confirm what really happened between R+L.

She just seems to be the type that people underestimate. Of course I realize she's probably dead, but I'm still holding out hope.

[sabrecmc]

Yes, thank you Rhaegar's Love! I knew I remembered something along those lines...

[Jon Icefyre]

Do you mean this one, from Barristan?

Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father’s wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

It was discussed some time ago that there is a parallel between Rhaegar and Duncan, both of them choosing a "forbidden" love and losing their lives and kingdom for her.

ETA: This also sparked Apple Martini's thread about Olenna Redwyne being the spurned bride of Duncan.

:agree: This is a fantastic post! :bowdown:

"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it"-Barristan

[Ygrain]

I've come across this the other day:

"When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved"

It has been proposed that Rhaegar's melancholy might have been rooted in the Targaryen prophetic abilities; has this quote been referred to in this connection?

[the_one_who_was_promised]

With Old Nan, how much do you think she knows/knew? She has been at WF for a long time. Is it possible Lyanna ever confided in her about Rhaegar, since there seemed to be no mom in the picture? Did she possibly figure out that Jon is Lyanna's son but agreed with Ned it was best to let things be? I know her memory hasn't been the greatest but it could have been a lot better 16 years ago. She wouldn't be able to prove much of anything, at least about Jon, if she is still alive but could at least confirm what really happened between R+L.

She just seems to be the type that people underestimate. Of course I realize she's probably dead, but I'm still holding out hope.

Ooh interesting.

I hadn't thought that far to be honest but it's possible isn't it? She was the oldest person at Winterfell and we know what they say about old age and wisdom..

I could imagine that she would be someone who the Starks could confide in, and she likes old stories and legends, so if Lyanna shared the tendency to read prophecies with Rhaegar, then I can envisage that Old Nan would be someone that Lyanna would approach.

I wouldn't be surprised if she knew a lot more.. however, is there any concrete evidence that she is dead apart from Theon Greyjoy's musings? We know that when GRRM chooses to off his characters, he does so abruptly. Like Joffrey, Ned, Robb and Robert, there is no ambiguity concerning that character's fate (barring Catelyn though).

However, with others; Jon Snow, Brienne (who later turned out to be alive) and possibly the Hound, there is much more ambiguity.

IMO, with Jon Snow, as was the case with Brienne, I think that it is more likely than not that he will survive.

The only comment I'd make is that the show hasn't appeared to have put much stock in Old Nan in Season 1, and perhaps if it was the intention of GRRM that her knowledge is crucial to the unfolding events in the book, the producers might have made her more pivotal, however on the other hand, I also think that with the focus of the show shifting to Dragonstone, Kings Landing, Mereen and the Wall, there has been less time to focus on the old characters of Winterfell.

As we haven't seen her die in either the books or the show (I don't think we have anyway), then perhaps she could possibly resurface at a later date.

I surmise that there must have been an abject reason why GRRM created her character and like you, I do think she might have known more than she was letting on, the more and more I think of it... :)

[Alia of the knife]

Do you mean this one, from Barristan?

Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father’s wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

It was discussed some time ago that there is a parallel between Rhaegar and Duncan, both of them choosing a "forbidden" love and losing their lives and kingdom for her.

ETA: This also sparked Apple Martini's thread about Olenna Redwyne being the spurned bride of Duncan.

I totally agree with that. She tells Sansa that she was once promised to a Targaryen, but she soon put an end to that.

I think it was the other way around, and all her current machinations are to "get back."

I've come across this the other day:

"When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved"

It has been proposed that Rhaegar's melancholy might have been rooted in the Targaryen prophetic abilities; has this quote been referred to in this connection?

Also agree that this is a good bet. Most figures said to have such abilities, or "gifts" also feel burdened by them.

[MtnLion]

As we haven't seen her die in either the books or the show (I don't think we have anyway), then perhaps she could possibly resurface at a later date.

Offhand, I think that Old Nan is at the Dreadfort being held, still; int he books. The screenplay had a huge setback when the actress died during season one, if she has a crucial part to play, later.

[Greymoon]

I was reading "A true Queen" (Winterfell Huis Clos) and while I found some of the theories farfetched, the connection/parallel drawn between Lyanna and Val, was interesting. I'm sure you are all aware of the theories stating that Val might be a priestess? Based on her clothes (the ones Dalla gave her) her education, and the weirwood brooch she wears, right?

Anyhow, two conclusions I found note worthy:

1) that wildlings do not all follow a patriarchal line of descent, but might follow a kind of matrilineal one - this concurs with the Old Gods/Celtic tradition and Seven/Christianity analogy made earlier by Alia.

2) that the mountain clans might be closer to the Wildlings than other Northern people - Lyanna's grandmother on her mother's side was a Flint, from the first Flints.

The connection between Ghost and the Old Gods has been made numerous times in the past. The KotLT's shield was painted with a weirwood face, that doesn't seem to belong to any House we know of (safe perhaps the Blackwoods) and many agree that the KotLT was Lyanna...there's at least a symbolic connection being established between Lyanna and the Old Gods...maybe it's just because she's a daughter of House Stark, but what if there is more to it?

Has it been theorized in any way or form that Lyanna might have inherited a 'sacred calling' from her mother, and grandmother before her? I'm very curious...Harrenhal is also located very close to Gods Eye, so if anything I think the symbolism tells us, that there was much more going on than a simple love story between Lyanna and Rhaegar, and that perhaps even, it wasn’t only Rhaegar who acted on a prophecy.

[LadyMary]

My impression, is that while there's a clear prejudice against women in the south of Westeros - not counting Dorne. The prejudice is less obvious and in parts absent in the North as exemplified by the Mormont women, Lyanna herself, Arya and Alys. I'm adding also, a parenthesis for Asha. And though it's not sufficient for a proper conclusion, I'm suggesting that the Institution of the High Septon plays its part in the prejudice. This argument is underscored by the fact that women cannot become Maesters.

The counter argument here, is that Arianne Martell keeps to the Seven. That's why, I'd rather be cautions, and will claim that it's not the Faith of the Seven itself, but the institution headed by the High Septon that perpetuates prejudice. The faith of the Old Gods however seems to care little for genders, and the religion does not seem institutionalized. We have yet to see an order of priests, servants etc.

Bear with me, I’m about to make some gigantic generalizations here - the source of the argument, comes from an anthropological study of marriage in a patriarchal society, a modern one. Though I think there are some similarities to be found, with Christian discourses and medieval practices/representations of women...thus I think it’s not too much of a stretch to apply this to the Kingslanding/the Institution of the Seven

In societies where such view exist/have existed, women were/are portrayed two ways:

1) a child, with no agency

2) a 'femme fatale' - a seductress hell bent on making men sin – were conversely the man is depicted as having no agency of his own. He has no control of his lust.

There's also the third figure:

3) a womb, an object to be sold/bought/leased to produce a child – this figure I’m disregarding because it seems irrelevant to the argument.

Often one single woman can at different times of her life, and viewed from different perspective take up two, or even all three roles at once.

I'd just say, that Lyanna in the eyes of Robert fits the figure of the 'innocent child, with no agency' while in the eyes of Cersei she's more of the 'femme fatale'... that Rhaegar has power, and a higher status than Lyanna, IMO, does not matter to people that view the Prince in a positive light, because voluntarily or not, they might tend towards the opinion, that both Elia and Lyanna, were agents of Rhaegar's dishonor.

• Connigton does not have a very good opinion on Elia,
  
• Cersei I believe, thinks that had Rhaegar married her, rather than Elia, he'd never have looked at Lyanna twice.
  
• Viserys also blames Elia and Dany.
  
• Barristan also, seems to make an apology of Rhaegar, when he tells Dany that Elia was good, but had a fragile health. Do I remember this wrong?
  

Neither are reliable POVs/opinions, but the general scheme is there - Rhaegar is innocent, it's the women that are to blame. Though of course Robert, Ned, Doran and Oberyn view this in a different light.

You forgot Kevan, who blamed Elia's infertility and plain looks for Rhaegar looking to "the wild sort of beauty" Lyanna.

So far, none have blamed Lyanna for the kidnapping, although some of them seem to think she was a consolation prize because Rhaegar was denied Cersei as a bride. If the kidnapping was staged to protect her reputation, it worked.

As for what Robert thought of Lyanna, I don't think he thought of her as a child but as a delicate maiden in need of his manly protection. Ned politely suggests the Robert didn't really know her because she was no defenseless damsel.

[Jon Blackfyre]

The connection between Ghost and the Old Gods has been made numerous times in the past. The KotLT's shield was painted with a weirwood face, that doesn't seem to belong to any House we know of (safe perhaps the Blackwoods) and many agree that the KotLT was Lyanna...there's at least a symbolic connection being established between Lyanna and the Old Gods...maybe it's just because she's a daughter of House Stark, but what if there is more to it?

Has it been theorized in any way or form that Lyanna might have inherited a 'sacred calling' from her mother, and grandmother before her? I'm very curious...Harrenhal is also located very close to Gods Eye, so if anything I think the symbolism tells us, that there was much more going on than a simple love story between Lyanna and Rhaegar, and that perhaps even, it wasn’t only Rhaegar who acted on a prophecy.

I can definitely get on board with this idea, and if Bran continues to look into Winterfell's past through the heart tree in the Godswood then it is very likely we could see further evidence to support this. Along with whatever may have occurred on the island of Gods Eye during the time of the tourney at Harrenhal, which would be very interesting.

It was said that Arya is like Lyanna in that they both have the "wolf's blood." Maybe Lyanna had the beginnings of the next generations Old God powers and also saw the danger beyond the Wall, prompting her to run away with Rhaegar for more concrete reasons as you suggest... Or she had a wicked case of puppy love and it sparked a watershed event in the history of Westeros. Either way, it'd be awesome to learn more on those events, which I hope happens sooner rather than later or not at all.

As for what Robert thought of Lyanna, I don't think he thought of her as a child but as a delicate maiden in need of his manly protection. Ned politely suggests the Robert didn't really know her because she was no defenseless damsel.

You're most definitely correct. All indications are Robert thought of her has a fragile beauty that needed his protection and that sentiment only grew in him over the years of believing she'd been kidnapped, raped and murdered. Which I think may have a bit to do with him letting himself go as far as he did. Sure he still would have been a drunk whoremonger if he had married her, but I think he was legitimately depressed at having lost her and having to settle with Cersie. Which is hilarious because its pretty indisputable that Cersie is smoking hot and if Robert had just been happy and satisfied with her then maybe things would have turned out okay for him and all the Starks instead of turning sideways and getting everyone killed.

The reality thou is like I said above, Lyanna was a wild child, daring and bold and most definitely not in need of protection. If she did in fact have some Old God, greenseer powers then that boldness combined with the info she could have about the future kicked off the whole eloping to have a baby with the crown prince, who also said he had a dream they needed to get freaky and have a son that would fulfill a prophecy to save the world. Maybe it wasn't all one sided on the underlying motives.

I do think Rhaegar loved her, but I think it started out of necessity and then grew because she was one in a million.

[nat655]

For goodness sake! It's a good theory but it's NOT a fact. There are 5 Stark children and many symbolic links to this in the books (direwolves especially). Whilst it wouldn't break this down if Jon was Lyanna's I don't think it'd be quite the same. GRRM has come out and said he doesn't read forums as he doesn't want to be influenced by them, I think this thread is the reason, he doesn't want to edit Jon's destiny based on a discussion board.