How Gay are You?

[Happy Ent]

With some of the older population I totally agree. I do think however, todays youth and most people in the age group of say thirty, forty or younger, are far more accepting and openminded when it comes to sexual orientation nowadays.

In the 70s, the Left advocated pedophilia. Nobody does that today. I have a hard time seeing any kind of progression in acceptance of sexual practices in the last 50 years. If anything, we’re much more prude today than in the 60s.

It has nothing to do with openmindedness. It’s only a platform to signal social coherence among your ingroup. The only thing that changes is which sexual deviation is the soup du jour.

[TerraPrime]

I have a hard time seeing any kind of progression in acceptance of sexual practices in the last 50 years. If anything, we’re much more prude today than in the 60s.

How do you plan on justifying this claim? What metrics are you using to quantify acceptance?

[Happy Ent]

How do you plan on justifying this claim? What metrics are you using to quantify acceptance?

Nice question. Let’s say convictions and incarceration of pedophiles over the last 5 decades. I’m sure that’s gone up. But I’m not sufficiently motivated to find out, so it would be an easy opportunity to prove me wrong.

(Which would be great. I have no dog in this game, so any kind of actually increased knowledge would make me happy, no matter how it makes me look.)

[Sci-2]

HE, I can't help but feel you're conflating sexual practices with sexual orientation.

I'm not familiar with a general advocacy for pedophilia amongst the left during the 70s either.

I have thought in the past that groups described as "liberal" are more about accepting LGBT into more traditional ideas of life long monogamy than advancing new notions of sexual/romantic relationships. I don't consider this a necessarily bad thing, as it seems many who were considered "deviants" actually want that simple life.

[Galactus]

I'm not familiar with a general advocacy for pedophilia amongst the left during the 70s either.

There wasn't that much, although there was a bit of interest in child sexuality and the expression of children's sexuality, which isn't neccessarily the same thing.

Nice question. Let’s say convictions and incarceration of pedophiles over the last 5 decades. I’m sure that’s gone up

No, that's a very bad metric.

What you'd need would be first a definition of "sexual deviance", then the rates of incarceration and/or institutionalization for these deviances, then a comparison across time. You might also want to check out the degree to which these "deviances" are actually practiced, although that is for obvious reasons tricky.

You'd also need to isolate other factors (population growth, possibly increases in simple efficiency of surveillance/policing, etc.)

It's an interesting subject (and I'm fairly sure there's tons of papers written on the subject) but simply looking at the rate of pedophile incarceration would be a very, very bad idea.

[mankytoes]

In the 70s, the Left advocated pedophilia. Nobody does that today. I have a hard time seeing any kind of progression in acceptance of sexual practices in the last 50 years. If anything, we’re much more prude today than in the 60s.

It has nothing to do with openmindedness. It’s only a platform to signal social coherence among your ingroup. The only thing that changes is which sexual deviation is the soup du jour.

As far as I'm aware, some nonces thought they'd jump on the civil rights movements and some radicals supported them. To suggest "the left" as a whole supported that is ridiculous.

[Poobah]

W.R.T. general acceptance of sexual and gender orientation today, speaking from the perspective of a white / cis / straightish man living in the south of England I definitely think that things have greatly improved, but obviously I'm not the best candidate to judge that from many angles. Also I think the people I tend to hang around with aren't the best focus group to work out how accepting wider society is, but generally amungst my friends and acquaintances I rarely, if ever, see any homophobia, transphobia etc. there is still some moderately strong background pressure to confirm to heteronormative gender roles, however, with ideas of masculinity and feminity still being prevelant even if people are very accepting of a feminine man or a woman displaying masculine characteristics it's still seen as described, in my opinion.

My sexual orientation is mostly hetero. I have no problem showing affection to other men like some have described, nor do I feel any revulsion towards male sexual acts. I've kissed another man before and while it didn't repulse me or make me feel especially uncomfortable neither did it do anything for me sexually. I guess I'm homo-neutral? As a balance between those who are strongly attracted to those of the same sex and those who feel repulsed by the idea of sexual acts with those of the same sex? I don't really have any issue with the idea of being in love with a man, and have several close male friends who I would certainly say I care deeply about and love in an entirely platonic way, though I tend to be a very empathetic person anyway, and I've never experienced sexual attraction to a man.

I don't know if it's strange or offensive to say this but I've often wished I were more gay. I still have a fairly deeply ingrained idea/belief that I'm unattractive and I honestly can't say if I actually am or not despite being told I'm not. I suppose it has something to do with the socially defined norms where the man is supposed to be the pursuer and the woman the pursued but very few woman have ever been very forward with me or shown any attraction to me on a sexual level, whereas several men have actively hit on me, which sounds great for the self-confidence thing but then the depression self-defeating voice says "but that just means everyone sees you as gay / you come off gay / you're only attractive to men, who you aren't attracted to, this is terrible!" so yeah...

Anyway I suppose I'll finish by saying that despite all I've said I don't feel that being primarily sexually attracted to women is the core / most important part of my sexuality, and straight is very likely not the primary label I'd choose to define it with.

[TerraPrime]

Nice question. Let’s say convictions and incarceration of pedophiles over the last 5 decades. I’m sure that’s gone up. But I’m not sufficiently motivated to find out, so it would be an easy opportunity to prove me wrong.

Anecdotally, the arrests and trials of Catholic priests seems to suggest that we are now less tolerant of pedophilia. But to really answer the question we'd also need to know the incidence rate of pedophilia throughout the time period, as well; otherwise even if the number of incarcerated pedophiles is higher now than in the 50s, it could simply reflect an increase in the incidence of pedophilia, which can be rightly argued given the facilitated access to child pornography via the internet.

Further, I find it problematic to classify pedophilia as a form of sexual orientation, since the focus of sexual interest for pedophilia, whether it's the regressed or fixated form, is on the youth of the target and not on the sex of the target. Grouping pedophilia together with homosexuality is further troubling in how it down-plays the importance of consent in the expression of these sexual desires.

I know you might not care about the effects of your words on others, but you must know that homosexual people have been lumped together with pedophiles for a long time and it remains a favorite false stereotype employed by some anti-gay people. So when you suggested that we measure the acceptance of sexual orientation by the rate of incarceration of pedophiles, it came across as rather trollish and insulting.

Finally, from what I have read of gay liberation history, at least for the U.S., pedophilia has always been on the fringe of the movement and often marginalized. It is not, far as I can tell, a significant factor in the main political movement of gay liberation. The gray area exists in pederasty, and there is a sub-culture in gay male population that fetishizes older-younger relations and sometimes glorifies the ancient Greek aesthetics on male youth. But I have a feeling that this is not what you were referring to.

(the board ate the earlier version of this post, so some stuff has now been covered by Galactus)

[Galactus]

Grouping pedophilia together with homosexuality is further troubling in how it down-plays the importance of consent in the expression of these sexual desires.

In sociological terms that's not really relevant though, they're both unusual and occasionally shunned/discouraged/persecuted behaviours. That one is according to our moral lights reprehensible doesen't really alter the mechanics much. (just becuase witchcraft does not have any real power does not mean it cannot be studied as a sociological phenomenon)

With regards to the question "Has society become more tolerant/open/accepting towards a wider variety of sexual practices?" then whether or not pedophilia is reprehensible is rather besides the point.

Although there is of course the option that society has become more accepting of some kinds of sexual practices and less tolerant of others.

HE's suggestion was bad science (social science!) for all sorts of reasons, but in it's fundamentals (IE: discussion the distinction between taboo and accepted sexual practices) it's brings up a valid point. (albeit with a shitty example) IE: that it is possible that some practices are less accepted today than in the 60's, while others are more so. (I don't know if either is the case, but it is a possibility)

EDIT: For instance, in these kinds of historical discussions re: Sweden homosexuality is often compared to beastiality, pedophilia etc. simply becuase they tended to fall under similar statutes and be prosecuted (or not as the case may be, there are very few convictions for homosexuality and a whole bunch for beastiality for various complex reasons) in similar ways.

[TerraPrime]

In sociological terms that's not really relevant though

No, I disagree. It's lazy to just lump all of these things into "sexual things that society disapproves of" without regards to the mechanism for the genesis of the taboo. There are common factors underscoring these taboos, but they are not all identical.

Also, I feel that I would be remiss to not point out the potential problem here, since we are not a group of sociologists having an academic discussion where the terms are well-understood before hand. In presenting the argument that he had, to a general audience, without caveats, HE did create the potential that someone else will interpret it that way.

[Galactus]

No, I disagree. It's lazy to just lump all of these things into "sexual things that society disapproves of"

It is neccessary to do so. (You can further dig into why society disapproves, but that's a different ballgame)

without regards to the mechanism for the genesis of the taboo. There are common factors underscoring these taboos, but they are not all identical.

No one has said they are, but if the question is "Has society become more accepting of previously taboo sexuality"? Then you'd need to consider society's attitude to previously taboo sexuality as a whole, not just cherry-pick. (which was what HE was doing, in fact)

EDIT: Cherry-picking that is.

Now you can argue that this is a pointless question to ask, and I'm not sure I'd actually disagree, but again, different question.

HE did create the potential that someone else will interpret it that way.

It's kind of what he does.

[Sci-2]

Now you can argue that this is a pointless question to ask, and I'm not sure I'd actually disagree, but again, different question.

Yeah, I'd say it's pretty worthless if being we take "prudish" as being averse to pedophilia.

And while it turns out - to hopefully no one's surprise - that many LGBT are not as up for nightly orgies as reactionary propaganda might have indicated I'm also not convinced people are more prude. Swinger culture and open marriages seem far more accepted now, as is openly noting that you have multiple sex partners while dating.

It's kind of what he does.

Any male Bakker fan has a 48.52% chance of becoming a subtle but effective troll. Of all my brothers sometimes I think only I am immune...

[Galactus]

Yeah, I'd say it's pretty worthless if being we take "prudish" as being averse to pedophilia.

I think "Have we become more accepting of differing forms of sexuality in general or have we simply shifted priorities in our denounciations?" To be a valid question to ask. (I'm sure Foucault would have hd something to say about it) but that is a far different question than the value judgement over whether or not this potential shift is a good or bad thing. (I'd consider it a good thing in general)

[Datepalm]

It seems to me like consent is the crucial issue thought. Bypassing all requirements for academic thought rigour (because this isn't an academic forum) it kind of looks self evident that some sexual practices have become more tolerated and some have become less tolerated. (Well, duh.) We are more tolerant of two adult men doing whatever they want, but less tolerant of an adult man and a fifteen year old girl. More tolerant of people who like to involve handcuffs in sex by mutual consent, by less tolerant of rape within marriage.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

What about polygamy? Is that more or less accepted.

Or maybe not just polygamy but the idea of having more than two people in a commited sexual relationship

[karaddin]

I'm not sure at the moment, but I think it will be more accepted in 10-20 years than it is now. At least the "all in a relationship together" style, I be surprised if older styles become less acceptable.

[Poobah]

I know quite a few poly people, but i don't think I run in typical circles.

What about kink / fetish / BDSM?

[karaddin]

I'd say that's more acceptable now, and a softcore version even more so post 50 shades. But maybe I don't run in typical circles either.

[Poobah]

From what I've heard 50 shades is about an abusive relationship between two really screwed up people so it isn't exactly a healthy role-model, but it's a reasonable point to make.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

I think Polygamy particularly is frowned upon so one dude doesn't have 50 slave wives or something. It's still legal in parts of Africa and Middle East.

I guess 3 or 4 people mutually together in a relationship gets lumped in with that harem kind of stuff