LBGQT: Or how I learned to stop worrying and read the DSM

[peterbound]

Finally I've learnt from the Christian Left thread that when you want a certain thread designated for a certain type of discussion, you can contact the mods to ensure that is enforced. Seeing as there are a bunch of you that have been active in this thread, can I request that any further discussion that rejects transgender identity just be deleted from here, there is little value is further hashing that out and at least for the rest of this iteration of this thread I can't deal with any more of that bigotry.

Whoa, I started this tread. I'm not one for passive aggressive oversight by the mods. If they go out of line they get deleted, but they should be able to say what they want. How else are they going to learn, or feel like part of the conversation or community? Good points were made on both sides, no need to start crazy ass government like regulation here.. we've got enough of that. Besides, no one likes a snitch.

[Sci-2]

Whoa, I started this tread. I'm not one for passive aggressive oversight by the mods. If they go out of line they get deleted, but they should be able to say what they want. How else are they going to learn, or feel like part of the conversation or community? Good points were made on both sides, no need to start crazy ass government like regulation here.. we've got enough of that. Besides, no one likes a snitch.

To be fair, the LGBT threads have sort of shifted into support threads rather than debate threads.

I'm actually thinking of a separate thread on societal acceptance of self-identification and personal gnosis, which might work better for that particular debate about use of pronouns?

[peterbound]

To be fair, the LGBT threads have sort of shifted into support threads rather than debate threads.

I'm actually thinking of a separate thread on societal acceptance of self-identification and personal gnosis, which might work better for that particular debate about use of pronouns?

Sure, makes sense. I see that happen in the exercise threads as well. Start another one up.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I've been debating whether to say this for most of today, but I feel I have to. In the fracas that happened in these threads, today, I'd like to thank those who spoke out for understanding and compassion. I said what I had to out of self-interest, but others spoke out for decency and understanding. I probably should single out a couple of people. Mormont, who busted me a couple of times for my bad behavior and peterbound, who I've locked horns, more times than I can count. I just thought saying thank you was necessary.

[Sci-2]

Sure, makes sense. I see that happen in the exercise threads as well. Start another one up.

Done.

[karaddin]

Peter - I'm not saying no questions or debate, and for example I certainly think there's plenty of room for debate on whether manning should have access to SRS.

What I don't think there is any value in is having someone come in and tell me I'm a man, they will call me a man and are utterly uninterested in learning anything on the subject beyond blind denial of my reality. That's very personally offensive and doesn't serve anything other than hurting me and people like me.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Mine, was a slightly different approach and was basically a variation of Tyrion Lannister's advice to Jon Snow. I have to admit, though, when that boarder claimed that what people are depends on what is between their legs, the phrase, "more balls than brains", came to mind.

[karaddin]

So the day after Chelsea Manning came out this week another trans woman of colour was beaten in NYC and ultimately died of her injuries. This shit is part of why I have no sense of humour and no tolerance for outright bigoted and hateful opinions, and why I look for allies. Another two trans women of colour were murdered earlier in the week, although one was the earlier discussed one in California that didn't appear to be a hate crime. Inc a bit of link spam.

This one is a trans woman reflecting on being beaten in the past just for being trans in response to these murders and calling for change.

A conservative reporter behaves like an utter fuckwit to belittle trans people and "show" how bathroom laws are bad.

And these two are posts by Jen Richards responding to the murder in NYC hitting the end of her patience and calling for everyone that secretly likes/admires us to stop keeping it a secret.

[Robin Of House Hill]

The California incident may or may not be a hate crime. The police are looking for two suspects. an 18 year old male and his 25 year old girlfriend. If they have any idea of wht the motive was, they aren't saying.

[Lord Mord]

FLoW referenced objectivity earlier, as in believing in an objective reality, and I can see where in certain contexts that can be useful, or indeed the only useful modus. What's problematic, though, is that we tend to use terms which are concrete and finite and universally acknowledged in one sense in another context where it's improper, in the name of objectivity.

Are any of us about to be confused about which sexual organs -- I assume this is the basis of Stag's definitions -- Manning possesses if we call her she? Does it matter, really, which organs she has now, and which are desired? I apologize for my clumsiness, there, wrt trans sensitivity, but my point is this is a person who identifies as she, and we're not directly medically or biologically concerned with penises or vaginas as such, but with rights. With dignity.

If we were in med school, discussing a patient, or if we were going to coach Manning on sexual technique or how to get pregnant, then and only in a handful of similar cases are the specifics of her genitals relevant. Otherwise, the relevant facts are: 1) she wants to change them, and, 2) irrespective of which she has, she prefers to be referred to as she.

Everything else related to what they are now is none of our goddamn business, and has no bearing on whether or not we honor her request, except, as TP said so well, inasmuch as we want to show off that no one can make us. It is true, but no one can make us chew with our mouths closed or cover our mouths when we cough or wait our turn in queue or say please and thank you, either.

[Sci-2]

FLoW referenced objectivity earlier, as in believing in an objective reality, and I can see where in certain contexts that can be useful, or indeed the only useful modus. What's problematic, though, is that we tend to use terms which are concrete and finite and universally acknowledged in one sense in another context where it's improper, in the name of objectivity.

Are any of us about to be confused about which sexual organs -- I assume this is the basis of Stag's definitions -- Manning possesses if we call her she? Does it matter, really, which organs she has now, and which are desired? I apologize for my clumsiness, there, wrt trans sensitivity, but my point is this is a person who identifies as she, and we're not directly medically or biologically concerned with penises or vaginas as such, but with rights. With dignity.

If we were in med school, discussing a patient, or if we were going to coach Manning on sexual technique or how to get pregnant, then and only in a handful of similar cases are the specifics of her genitals relevant. Otherwise, the relevant facts are: 1) she wants to change them, and, 2) irrespective of which she has, she prefers to be referred to as she.

Everything else related to what they are now is none of our goddamn business, and has no bearing on whether or not we honor her request, except, as TP said so well, inasmuch as we want to show off that no one can make us. It is true, but no one can make us chew with our mouths closed or cover our mouths when we cough or wait our turn in queue or say please and thank you, either.

Actually, we moved this particular debate to this thread.

The idea behind moving it is so people who don't want to subject themselves to challenges to their identity can still enjoy this LGBT topic thread.

[karaddin]

LM - I can't speak for anyone else but you'll never have to apologise to me for imperfect knowledge of language when that's the sentiment you are expressing. You are spot on, unless you are a doctor treating me for something for which this information may be important, or you are the person getting into my pants then my bits are neither your business nor relevant.

[Robin Of House Hill]

LM,

I don't see any problem with what you said.

[Lord Mord]

Sci,

Actually, we moved this particular debate to this thread.

The idea behind moving it is so people who don't want to subject themselves to challenges to their identity can still enjoy this LGBT topic thread.

Ah. Thank you.

[Sci-2]

Sci,

Ah. Thank you.

No worries, I figured I'd mention it less for you and more for the next person who might want to challenge your points.

I also think to really dig into what grounds people's positions on these controversial topics you have to extend discussion to topics [considerations] beyond what an LGBT thread should be expected to cover.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Now, that things have calmed down, I'd like to say something about "stealth". Oddly, enough, the first time I'd heard the term used in regard to transgender issues, was when karaddin used it in one of the LGBT threads. When I transitioned, the term wasn't used because there were no options presented by those who guided us toward our goals. It was the only way to go. Ultimately, you were supposed to disappear into society without anyone knowing your background. It is, after all, the ultimate success story. The world perceives you as you perceive yourself. The advantages are a sense of accomplishment and fewer hassles or dangers. The disadvantages are that you must break contact with everyone you knew before. It is also stressful, because you are always on guard against someone figuring it out and constantly are looking for indications anyone has.

There are no valid statistics on what percent are successfully stealth because those that are, cannot be found. I guess that makes me a hybrid. Open on this board, but unknown in the real world.

This is the hard part to talk about...the pitfalls to avoid. I know them well, because I didn't avoid them. If you find yourself avoiding meeting new people, going new places and not trying things you think you might enjoy, that is a big red flag that shouldn't be ignored...strike 1. If, you find that the persona you show to the world is designed to keep people at bay...strike 2. If you find yourself most comfortable where the fewest people are...strike 3. (sorry for the baseball references)

Guess who didn't avoid any of those pitfalls. We wound up on 40 acres of the worst land you can imagine. A place where very little would grow because the ground was as alkaline as seawater, the biggest tree was barely 16 ft. and hurricane force winds weren't rare and the extent of my interaction with others, was going to the post office counter to get a package that wouldn't fit in the PO box, or paying at the Wal-Mart checkout. So, after we moved to Los Angeles, it shouldn't be surprising that the extent of human contact is the brief conversations I may have with people, while walking the dogs. This board is the closest thing I have to a social life and I routinely screw that up.

Stealth, for those who can successfully do it, without the stuff I described, is still something I prefer to think is the best alternative. It just isn't an easy road.

I think I said too much.

[Deedles]

Honestly Robin, I think many of your views are repugnant, and we probably wouldn't be friends in RealLife, I do rather wish I could meet you and give you a rug.

When you relate instances like the above, it breaks my heart. I'm filled with pity (that you feel forced/conditioned to live like that, rather than for you-if that makes sense) and rage.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm sure your openness about these circumstances will engage others here, and may improve conditions for others. If nothing else, I know I am more likely to speak up, loudly, if I see instances of trams phobia. I will endeavour to do better.

[TerraPrime]

Robin:

I've only heard of stories of what you described - completely disappearing into a new identity, almost witness-protection level. So I thank you for sharing some of that part of experience with the board. I can only imagine the tremendous amount of nerves it takes to do what seems to be the opposite of what you have trained yourself to do for a long time. I think our board is the better for your prensence. We will still disagree a lot on politics and social issues, but I truly do appreciate your contributions. If at times the board seems too much, feel free to take a break. It must not be an easy change for you.

*hugs*

[Robin Of House Hill]

Thank you, both, for words that are kinder than I deserve. Actually the telling of it wasn't the hard part. The realization of how much I fucked up, was.

To put in in a parlance the members of this board will understand, I've become very weary of wearing full plate armor, day after day. The board gives me the opportunity to put it aside, even if I still wear it in the real world. My only fear is that my wanting to take of the armor, may spill over into the real world. Yesterday, not realizing I was logged into my real world Facebook account, I accidentally "liked" a post on the Robin Hill account. Instant panic. Log out and then into the Robin Hill account to delete the post I'd liked and sever the connection between them. I don't think I will ever be ready for anything similar in the real world.

Yeah, my political view are horrible...keep the world out.

Don't worry. I'm hangin' in.

[thecryptile]

Terra Prime- no insult intended in upthread when I said "her"- I didn't know you're a man. Sorry- I thought you're RL name was Tera or Tara. No offense intended seriously. I want no part of the pronoun battle. I'll call Chelsea Manning her as she requests- whatever, that's no skin off my neck and is only simple politeness.