(Spoilers) Season 4 interactions

[Mr Smith]

Jaime's pre-wedding arrival back at King's Landing is going to change a lot. I'm still surprised they did it, given the impact it has on:

- Tyrion: who will now know that Jaime is back during his trial and will expect his brother to support him (if not through combat, at least testify for him at his trial)

- Joffery: I'd love an interaction between Jaime and Joffery before the latter dies, and it would cause a lot of regret for Jaime to see what his son has become.

- Sansa: this is a big problem for Jaime's character, and its going to cause a lot of tensions that weren't there in the book when Jaime finds that Sansa has been married off (to his own brother no less!) How he reacts will have a huge impact on his relationships with: Brienne, Cersei, Tyrion, Tywin.

- Tywin: This will go mostly the same way as the book, but with one crucial change - I believe Jaime will name Loras to the Kingsguard so he can't marry Cersei. It'll leave the three of them quite relieved, but will have Tywin furious, and further estrange him from his son.

Sidenote:

They better not fuck up the Tyrion/Shae situation any more than they already have...

[space]

I'm most looking forward to what they do with jaime in kings landing...obviously they deliberately brought him back early (before the PW and we meet the RV) so i really want to see where that goes...i dont see him having much interaction with joffery (i really hopes he makes some sort of "well, that little asshole deserved it" comment after the pw like he did in the books!)

I think they mainly brought him back to build a stronger relationship with tyrion, add some more elements with cersei and hopefully we do get a lannister reunion! (I could literally just watch 10 full hours of tywins small council meetings now)

stannis and jon will be good (unfortunately imo jon's actor is quite subpar so that might dilute it a little bit)

[go joff go]

Jaime's pre-wedding arrival back at King's Landing is going to change a lot. I'm still surprised they did it, given the impact it has on:

- Sansa: this is a big problem for Jaime's character, and its going to cause a lot of tensions that weren't there in the book when Jaime finds that Sansa has been married off (to his own brother no less!) How he reacts will have a huge impact on his relationships with: Brienne, Cersei, Tyrion, Tywin.

They better not fuck up the Tyrion/Shae situation any more than they already have...

I don't understand this complaint at all. In the book most important element about Jaimie is how he handles his vows i.e. becoming the kingslayer. George sets him up to be in a similarly impossible situation with Sansa and then lets Jaimie off the hook by having Sansa escape before he even gets to kings landing. The way the show is setting up he won't get that reprieve and will actually have to make a decision and not just cop it off on Brienne. This is a million times better and more interesting. That people think the other way is better just shows how slavish they are to the book.

[franko99]

I don't understand this complaint at all. In the book most important element about Jaimie is how he handles his vows i.e. becoming the kingslayer. George sets him up to be in a similarly impossible situation with Sansa and then lets Jaimie off the hook by having Sansa escape before he even gets to kings landing. The way the show is setting up he won't get that reprieve and will actually have to make a decision and not just cop it off on Brienne. This is a million times better and more interesting. That people think the other way is better just shows how slavish they are to the book.

If the PW is in episode 2 or 3 there will not be enough time for any interaction between Jaime and Sansa, maybe he will try to improve Sansa's situation talking with Tywin and/or Tyrion, but in the end, Jaime (and Brienne) won't be able to do anything before shit happens

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Jaime's pre-wedding arrival back at King's Landing is going to change a lot. I'm still surprised they did it, given the impact it has on:

- Tyrion: who will now know that Jaime is back during his trial and will expect his brother to support him (if not through combat, at least testify for him at his trial)

- Joffery: I'd love an interaction between Jaime and Joffery before the latter dies, and it would cause a lot of regret for Jaime to see what his son has become.

- Sansa: this is a big problem for Jaime's character, and its going to cause a lot of tensions that weren't there in the book when Jaime finds that Sansa has been married off (to his own brother no less!) How he reacts will have a huge impact on his relationships with: Brienne, Cersei, Tyrion, Tywin.

- Tywin: This will go mostly the same way as the book, but with one crucial change - I believe Jaime will name Loras to the Kingsguard so he can't marry Cersei. It'll leave the three of them quite relieved, but will have Tywin furious, and further estrange him from his son.

- Tyrion: What can Jaime do during the trial? Command his Lord father to release Tyrion? Go to war against his own father? Oh that's right he can free him from his cell. Don't see how that changes anything.

- Joffrey: Nothing changes here besides having sex on the corpse of your son.

- Sansa: Jaime will say "I promised to return the girl" find out he can't, will have to think about how what he can do to keep his vow and restore his honor, and then suddenly the PW happens, Sansa disappears, Jaime says ok Brienne this is our chance. Nothing changes besides Jaime struggling a bit more with how he intends to keep his vow which actually is a good thing for the character IMO. Rather than just find out Sansa is gone and hand it off to Brienne he will actually struggle with it.

- Tywin: That's speculation but I actually could see that happening. Not a bad thought. Cersei did seem to hint that she already figured out how to get out of the marriage so her plan could very well be to coax Jaime into making him a KG.

[go joff go]

Sure it is, The way the show works most characters don't have a lot of scenes together anyway. They really only need one scene together. Jaimie could promise to help her escape maybe even somehow imply that Dontos is an agent of imie only to shock the audience when LF is revealed. I would be shocked if they essentially left it essentially the same as the book.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Even that doesn't change anything. In that scenario Jaime vows to Sansa to help her before sending Brienne to find her. I mean the intent is the same, the end result is the same, the only difference is one essentially diminutive conversation that actually could be a great scene for both characters. But I don't see how this can happen since I don't think he would plot to rescue Sansa away from his own brother.

[Colonel Green]

But I don't see how this can happen since I don't think he would plot to rescue Sansa away from his own brother.

His brother doesn't want to be married to Sansa (even if his wishes mattered at all in this scenario).

Having Jaime and Brienne back early is an extremely significant change to this plot, because everything that happened was premised on them not being back, and it will be extremely difficult to have events play out as they have to without harming either their characterization or Sansa's (Sansa goes with Dontos because he's her only option; having her meet Jaime and Brienne and have them offer help would be an extreme disservice to the character).

[Newstar]

Having Jaime and Brienne back early is an extremely significant change to this plot, because everything that happened was premised on them not being back, and it will be extremely difficult to have events play out as they have to without harming either their characterization or Sansa's

I dunno about that, especially since the PW is going to be in Episode 2, and Episode 1 is typically a very busy episode that sets up all the 10 or 11 or so plots for the season.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

His brother doesn't want to be married to Sansa (even if his wishes mattered at all in this scenario).

Having Jaime and Brienne back early is an extremely significant change to this plot, because everything that happened was premised on them not being back, and it will be extremely difficult to have events play out as they have to without harming either their characterization or Sansa's (Sansa goes with Dontos because he's her only option; having her meet Jaime and Brienne and have them offer help would be an extreme disservice to the character).

I already outlined the scenario in which it works perfectly. Jaime arrive at KL, finds out Sansa is married to Tyrion. Jaime talks to Tyrion and says he vowed to return her, realizes he can't accomplish that without some drastic measure. Jaime broods on it, has a conversation with Brienne about not being able to free Sansa, Brienne chastises him in that loving way. Jaime broods some more. Purple wedding happens, Sansa disappears, Jaime sends Brienne to find her while Tyrion is accused or regicide.

Jaime and Brienne's characterization doesn't change. Sansa's doesn't change (nor is that even characterization what you mentioned) because Jaime won't tell her about some plan to help her escape. Not saying that's how it will happen, but it won't change any characterization or really anything of note.

And Tyrion not wanting to marry her makes no difference. Jaime isn't going to go up to him and say "hey man I hear you don't want to be married to Sansa so you don't mind if I just sneak her out of KL and we just all forget about her?" They're married and that's it. Not sure what point you're even trying to make here.

So again, tell me how this is "Extremely significant" without having seen how it will play out? I can come up with at least 3 other scenarios in which everything resolves normally without any changes to the characters.

[go joff go]

Why would Jaime offer Sansa a chance to escape change anything. The last thing she is going to do is trust a Lannister, so it doesn't change anything. It will be just another person she doesn't escape with just like it will be another vow Jaimie has to choose between. The show does this quite a bit hammering a point, arya always almosts meets her family, Tywin always underestimates his enemis before getting his stuff together. LF always gives people a chance to trust him before turning on them after they deny him, etc.

[Colonel Green]

Why would Jaime offer Sansa a chance to escape change anything.

Because it will be the show altering Sansa's story to having her make the "wrong choice", and as a result she'll be constantly bashed for not trusting Jaime and Brienne and it will be said that she deserves everything that happens to her at the Eyrie and she's dumb.

It hardly matters that there's good reason not to trust Jaime (but she would trust Brienne, an additional problem). She has good reason not to trust Tyrion either, and she's still constantly criticized for that (which the show frankly seems to agree with, since they wouldn't even allow her to not like him after their forced marriage without the Redd Wedding). So yes, it would be a big problem for the show to turn Sansa's escape into another opportunity for people to call her stupid, which they will if she rejects Jaime and Brienne.

I already outlined the scenario in which it works perfectly. Jaime arrive at KL, finds out Sansa is married to Tyrion. Jaime talks to Tyrion and says he vowed to return her, realizes he can't accomplish that without some drastic measure. Jaime broods on it, has a conversation with Brienne about not being able to free Sansa, Brienne chastises him in that loving way. Jaime broods some more. Purple wedding happens, Sansa disappears, Jaime sends Brienne to find her while Tyrion is accused or regicide.

That conceivably could work (though you'd have to explain why Brienne doesn't just go talk to Sansa herself).

And Tyrion not wanting to marry her makes no difference. Jaime isn't going to go up to him and say "hey man I hear you don't want to be married to Sansa so you don't mind if I just sneak her out of KL and we just all forget about her?" They're married and that's it.

Yeah, because Jaime has so much respect for the institution of marriage. And there's no requirement that husband and wife live in the same place, anyway. Regardless, it Sansa that he owes his oath to, not Tyrion.

[go joff go]

Well book sansa was dumb, sorry book sansa fans. But really her motivations have for the most part been sensible given her situation in the show, that they were the wrong moves can only be appreciated by someone with an omniscient POV , so if show fans call her dumb its due to the own unsophisticated interpretation of the show. And why would she trust Brienne. She doesn't have a clue who Brienne is other then the person who saved Jaime while her family got slaughtered. Sansa isn't Arya, she isn't going to look favorably on a woman knight.

[Colonel Green]

And why would she trust Brienne. She doesn't have a clue who Brienne is other then the person who saved Jaime while her family got slaughtered. Sansa isn't Arya, she isn't going to look favorably on a woman knight.

Brienne is almost as earnest as Sansa, and that she's an associate of Catelyn is easily verified. The idea that Show!Sansa wouldn't trust her when she trusts Shae and even became pals with Tyrion is laughable. And there's no way the show could have her rejecting Brienne and in the same episode trusting Dontos, who has far less to recommend, without doing the character even more disservice.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

That conceivably could work (though you'd have to explain why Brienne doesn't just go talk to Sansa herself).

And say what? If anyone caught wind of her trying to help Sansa escape she'd be imprisoned. Brienne isn't sneaky or cunning either so she's likely to go to Jaime and ask him to use his influence to do something. Plus Brienne might even end up staying in a cell if Loras is still bitter about Renly and just blames her for possibly being in league with Stannis.

Brienne is almost as earnest as Sansa, and that she's an associate of Catelyn is easily verified. The idea that Show!Sansa wouldn't trust her when she trusts Shae and even became pals with Tyrion is laughable. And there's no way the show could have her rejecting Brienne and in the same episode trusting Dontos, who has far less to recommend, without doing the character even more disservice.

Remember that the last scene we have of Sansa is her bawling her eyes out about Robb and Cat being killed. Sansa's in no place to trust anyone but she's at least seen Dontos before and knows him to owe her gratitude. Brienne at one point working for her mother doesn't mean anything, especially considering her mother was just killed by her brother's bannermen. Technically it was pretty stupid for her to even trust Dontos right away in the books so that's going to be unavoidable anyways.

[go joff go]

Yeah if anything her closest friend outside of Shae is Margaery who was last seen blaming Brienne for Renly death and watching her beat up her brother, so she is probably not that well disposed to her. WE will find out quickly though since apparently one of the earlier scenes will involve Brienne and the tyrells.

[Miryana]

- Sansa: this is a big problem for Jaime's character, and its going to cause a lot of tensions that weren't there in the book when Jaime finds that Sansa has been married off (to his own brother no less!) How he reacts will have a huge impact on his relationships with: Brienne, Cersei, Tyrion, Tywin.

The Lord of the Dreadfort gave her an uninterested glance. “The girls need not concern you any further, my lady. The Lady Sansa is the dwarf’s wife, only the gods can part them now.”

“His wife?” Brienne said, appalled. “The Imp? But... he swore, before the whole court, in sight of gods and men...”

She is such an innocent. Jaime was almost as surprised, if truth be told, but he hid it better. Sansa Stark, that ought to put a smile on Tyrion’s face. He remembered how happy his brother had been with his little crofter’s daughter... for a fortnight.

Book Jaime is a scumbag who doesn't care about his vow to Catelyn except when he can fulfill bits of it in ways that cost the Lannisters little to nothing. His reaction to the marriage is to think of Tyrion's happiness and the wrong he did to his brother, not the wrong being done to the 12-year-old hostage who Tyrion has been given permission to rape (because that's certainly something to smile about! nothing there that should trouble Jaime's or Tyrion's conscience!). I fully expect Show Jaime to be portrayed differently, as a good person who actually cares about Sansa's wellbeing. The question is whether he'll have time to tell her about it: if the PW is in 4x02 I doubt it, and I think that would be a good thing since then she'll escape with Dontos/Littlefinger before she knows about this alternative that would give viewers even more reason to bash her, as pointed out.

[Newstar]

What's likely that TV Jaime's going to be so preoccupied dealing with the non-book TV Loras/TV Cersei engagement that Sansa's likely not going to feature much on his list of priorities until after the PW at any rate. The 4x02 callsheet points to a Jaime/Loras scene. Brienne might try to get him to do something about Sansa before the PW, but I imagine his hands will be full dealing with the non-book Loras/Cersei engagement.

It's been suggested by Colonel Green that TV Sansa being offered a chance at rescue by Jaime and Brienne and being shown to turn it down in favour of Dontos would be some enormous disservice to her character, but I disagree. Book Sansa was disinclined to trust any Lannisters, and I imagine Book Sansa would have treated a genuine offer of rescue from Book Jaime the same way she treated Tyrion's attempts to get her to trust him (with respect to the attempt on Bran's life): with confusion, suspicion, and contempt. A similar reaction to TV Jaime would be entirely in keeping with Sansa's character in the books, not a departure from it.

Because it will be the show altering Sansa's story to having her make the "wrong choice", and as a result she'll be constantly bashed for not trusting Jaime and Brienne and it will be said that she deserves everything that happens to her at the Eyrie and she's dumb. (...) So yes, it would be a big problem for the show to turn Sansa's escape into another opportunity for people to call her stupid, which they will if she rejects Jaime and Brienne.

Well, if the shoe fits...

In all seriousness, though, since Book Sansa fails to trust Tyrion in favour of trusting Dontos, TV Sansa rejecting the help of an additional Lannister in favour of Dontos is not some drastic departure from the canon version of Sansa or some huge disservice to her character. It's entirely consistent with her book character. And if TV viewers judge her as stupid for rejecting Jaime and Brienne in favour of Dontos, well, that's in keeping with book readers judging her as stupid for failing to trust Tyrion in favour of trusting Dontos. You might not like it, but it wouldn't be inconsistent with Book Sansa in the slightest.

I don't really get all the ruffled feathers and outrage over a supposed slight to Sansa's character that hasn't even happened yet and arises from the imagined outcome of Jaime/Brienne/Sansa interactions which are very unlikely based on what we now know about the timing of the PW and the non-book Loras/Cersei engagement. I doubt either Jaime or Brienne will approach Sansa before the PW at any rate, Jaime because he'll have his hands full with the Loras/Cersei fiasco, and Brienne because she won't do anything before she has Jaime on board.

Brienne is almost as earnest as Sansa, and that she's an associate of Catelyn is easily verified. The idea that Show!Sansa wouldn't trust her when she trusts Shae and even became pals with Tyrion is laughable.

Is it? TV Shae's offered Sansa genuine comfort, support, and love over the past two seasons. She's gone out of her way to help Sansa at some personal risk at least twice that Sansa knows about (flipping the mattress, covering Sansa's escape to her room in Blackwater), and Sansa's surely noticed Shae's protective, caring attitude towards her. TV Sansa has good reason for valuing and trusting Shae.

Similarly, TV Sansa was willing to befriend Tyrion around 3x10ish (before news of the Red Wedding reached her), because she knows that Tyrion's gone to bat for her at least twice that she knows about: saving her from the Kingsguard beating, and standing up to Joffrey at the wedding over the bedding. She also acknowledges that he's "tried" to be kind to her, suggesting she believes his efforts at treating her kindly in Seasons 2 and 3 were the product of some genuine attempt at friendliness rather than hollow courtesies.

In contrast, what has Brienne done for her lately, or ever? She's just some random person claiming to have her best interests at heart. At least Dontos has a legitimate-sounding reason to assist her (paying her back for saving his life). Brienne doesn't have anything beyond "I swore allegiance to your mother," which isn't going to be very compelling to Sansa, given that Brienne is also known to be one of Jaime's associates, and given that Catelyn was murdered by her own bannermen (as someone pointed out upthread). It's true that Littlefinger got considerable traction with Sansa just on the basis of his supposed love for Catelyn, but he doesn't have the association with a Lannister that Brienne does. Even assuming Sansa weren't aware of Brienne and Jaime being thick as thieves, once Brienne brings Jaime into it--as she stupidly would--I have no doubt Sansa would shut down and would assume this was some roundabout plot to trap her into committing treason (much as she did with Tyrion in ASOS).

[Joseph Nobles]

I imagine his hands will be full dealing with the non-book Loras/Cersei engagement.

Hand, don't you mean?

But in other news, where do you have access to the callsheets? I've read all the books and love speculating about the adaptation, and callsheets are solid information as to what's going on.

ETA: Never mind, I found it!

The name for the unit filming the PW is Wolf. That's amazing. :D

And it's possible that this dinner is the equivalent of a rehearsal dinner. I can't see how they cram all these stories into the first two episodes along with all the prep they need for the PW...

...unless the PW is like the Blackwater episode, the sole focus of the hour? With maybe brief mentions of other storylines?

EATA: No. Can't be a rehearsal/welcome to KL type meal. The call sheet calls Margaery the Queen. Wow, they are tying the knot in episode 2. Well, OK then.

[Colonel Green]

It's been suggested by Colonel Green that TV Sansa being offered a chance at rescue by Jaime and Brienne and being shown to turn it down in favour of Dontos would be some enormous disservice to her character, but I disagree. Book Sansa was disinclined to trust any Lannisters, and I imagine Book Sansa would have treated a genuine offer of rescue from Book Jaime the same way she treated Tyrion's attempts to get her to trust him (with respect to the attempt on Bran's life): with confusion, suspicion, and contempt. A similar reaction to TV Jaime would be entirely in keeping with Sansa's character in the books, not a departure from it.

...

In all seriousness, though, since Book Sansa fails to trust Tyrion in favour of trusting Dontos, TV Sansa rejecting the help of an additional Lannister in favour of Dontos is not some drastic departure from the canon version of Sansa or some huge disservice to her character. It's entirely consistent with her book character. And if TV viewers judge her as stupid for rejecting Jaime and Brienne in favour of Dontos, well, that's in keeping with book readers judging her as stupid for failing to trust Tyrion in favour of trusting Dontos. You might not like it, but it wouldn't be inconsistent with Book Sansa in the slightest.

I don't think it's out-of-character for Book!Sansa not to trust Jaime (she has no reason to), my point is that putting her in a situation where she chooses Dontos over Jaime is am undermining of the character that the show has already served very poorly. Her escape is a major moment for the character, and she went with Dontos for the lack of any other options. Presenting her with what the audience knows is a better option will completely undermine the character's journey, and prompt the usual chorus of people saying she deserves everything that happens to her. The equation with the idiots who blame her for not trusting Tyrion doesn't fit; among other things, Tyrion was never offering, or even considering, helping her escape. Whereas in this hypothetical scenario the show would have two offers of rescue arrive in the same episode, and have her pick the "wrong" one.

Is it? TV Shae's offered Sansa genuine comfort, support, and love over the past two seasons. She's gone out of her way to help Sansa at some personal risk at least twice that Sansa knows about (flipping the mattress, covering Sansa's escape to her room in Blackwater), and Sansa's surely noticed Shae's protective, caring attitude towards her. TV Sansa has good reason for valuing and trusting Shae.

Except she was shown completely trusting Shae before any of that stuff had happened, in The Old Gods and the New. We never got any explanation for how that happened, and the show didn't think one was necessary. Hence, Shae didn't have to do anything in particular to earn Sansa's trust; no reason Brienne wouldn't be able to manage the same.