(Spoilers) Season 4 interactions

[Le Cygne]

Book Jaime is a scumbag who doesn't care about his vow to Catelyn except when he can fulfill bits of it in ways that cost the Lannisters little to nothing. His reaction to the marriage is to think of Tyrion's happiness and the wrong he did to his brother, not the wrong being done to the 12-year-old hostage who Tyrion has been given permission to rape (because that's certainly something to smile about! nothing there that should trouble Jaime's or Tyrion's conscience!)

I think you missed the snark dripping all over the place in Jaime's POVs.

He cared nothing except to completely go against the Queen Regent and save her.

"Cersei means to see that the girl is found and killed, wherever she has gone to ground …"

[Le Cygne]

Also there's no way Sansa would trust Shae (still just galls me that we're even talking about a dead prostitute as this majorly important figure in Sansa Stark's life) and not Brienne. I've given my reasons on about a dozen other threads, won't repeat it, but I can't even begin to take that seriously.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Also there's no way Sansa would trust Shae (still just galls me that we're even talking about a dead prostitute as this majorly important figure in Sansa Stark's life) and not Brienne. I've given my reasons on about a dozen other threads, won't repeat it, but I can't even begin to take that seriously.

She's her handmaiden. She has no idea she's a whore. And Shae is sincere and protective. Why not trust her but rather trust a drunk mess of a bad knight in Dontos who wants to kiss her all the time and seems entirely incompetent? Lapse in logic there showing a bit of bias toward the show for not doing everything the books did.

[Le Cygne]

She's her handmaiden. She has no idea she's a whore. And Shae is sincere and protective. Why not trust her but rather trust a drunk mess of a bad knight in Dontos who wants to kiss her all the time and seems entirely incompetent? Lapse in logic there showing a bit of bias toward the show for not doing everything the books did.

Shae IS a prostitute on the show, it doesn't matter if Sansa doesn't know she is, she is. They made the central character in Sansa's life a prostitute, who is dead in the books (that shows how unimportant she is to her story, and they are to some degree following the book story, so that's relevant). They swapped out Shae for the Hound, not Dontos. It is regressing her to infancy, instead of fantasizing about sex, she's got a babysitter. And she's older on the show (and looks even older than that), so that's a really strange choice. And she's going to trust Dontos, too, just wait and see. He's back next season.

But she's not going to trust BRIENNE. Her mother's true knight. Lady Brienne of Tarth. Who can prove her worthiness (unlike Shae, who it would take maybe Sansa following down the hall one day to know she's screwing Tyrion).

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Shae IS a prostitute on the show, it doesn't matter if Sansa doesn't know she is, she is. They made the central character in Sansa's life a prostitute, who is dead in the books (that shows how unimportant she is to her story, and they are to some degree following the book story, so that's relevant). They swapped out Shae for the Hound, not Dontos. It is regressing her to infancy, instead of fantasizing about sex, she's got a babysitter. And she's older on the show (and looks even older than that), so that's a really strange choice. And she's going to trust Dontos, too, just wait and see. He's back next season.

But she's not going to trust BRIENNE. Her mother's true knight. Lady Brienne of Tarth. Who can prove her worthiness (unlike Shae, who it would take maybe Sansa following down the hall one day to know she's screwing Tyrion).

So because Eddard Stark is dead, Jon shouldn't be affected by him? Is Eddard unimportant to Jon, Robb, Sansa, Arya, and Rickon because he's dead? Her trusting Dontos is how it works in the books which was stupid even then so why is that so bad now?

She's never met Brienne who will be possible linked to the death of Renly, be Jaime Lannister's companion, and be someone with whom Sansa has nothing in common with at first glance, as opposed to Margaery Tyrell.

It doesn't matter what you know. It only matters what the character knows.

[Le Cygne]

So because Eddard Stark is dead, Jon shouldn't be affected by him? Is Eddard unimportant to Jon, Robb, Sansa, Arya, and Rickon because he's dead?

You twisted around what I said. Shae not only doesn't have anything to do with her story but since she's dead, there's nothing in the future, either.

Her trusting Dontos is how it works in the books which was stupid even then so why is that so bad now?

I didn't say trusting Dontos was "stupid" in the books or the show. I said if she's going to trust him and not Brienne, that doesn't make sense.

She's never met Brienne who will be possible linked to the death of Renly, be Jaime Lannister's companion, and be someone with whom Sansa has nothing in common with at first glance, as opposed to Margaery Tyrell.

Brienne is Sansa's mother's true knight. That's HUGE. There are many, even right there in Kings Landing, who know Catelyn sent Brienne with Jaime back to Kings Landing to exchange him for Sansa and Arya. Catelyn talked to Brienne about personal things, including Sansa and Arya, that Brienne can tell Sansa. Loras knows they went off together and doesn't think she killed Renly, and can tell Sansa. There are others who can vouch for her, she's a well known, highborn lady from a family not associated with the Lannisters. She was a member of Renly's Kingsguard, easily enough verified, and furthermore, she filled the slot Renly had been holding open for Barriston Selmy. Remember in the show, Sansa said Stannis wouldn't hurt her? Renly is his brother. Sansa is familiar with all of this. She's heard her father talking about these people, she's heard of them all of her life.

It doesn't matter what you know. It only matters what the character knows.

It most certainly does matter what the audience knows. The audience is aware of the truth. That Sansa is being tricked by these people is not something to be overlooked. She's going to know one day. It's extremely relevant.

[Joseph Nobles]

I think both of you have set out very good reasons why you think Sansa will or will not trust Brienne. Le Cygne is right to show there will have to be some good and clear reasons given as to why Sansa chooses Dontos over Brienne, something that was not at issue in the books.

ETA: However, since the recent leaked callsheet shows that Margeary is the Queen in episode 2, Sansa may simply not have the time to verify any of Brienne's credentials and references. It may be enough that she knows Brienne to be a friend to Jaime Lannister. And in the chaos following Joffrey's death, Dontos may appear to be her only true option. More's the tragedy. We all know Brienne to be the better choice.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

You twisted around what I said. Shae not only doesn't have anything to do with her story but since she's dead, there's nothing in the future, either.

I didn't say trusting Dontos was "stupid" in the books or the show. I said if she's going to trust him and not Brienne, that doesn't make sense.

Brienne is Sansa's mother's true knight. That's HUGE. There are many, even right there in Kings Landing, who know Catelyn sent Brienne with Jaime back to Kings Landing to exchange him for Sansa and Arya. Catelyn talked to Brienne about personal things, including Sansa and Arya, that Brienne can tell Sansa. Loras knows they went off together and doesn't think she killed Renly, and can tell Sansa. There are others who can vouch for her, she's a well known, highborn lady from a family not associated with the Lannisters. She was a member of Renly's Kingsguard, easily enough verified, and furthermore, she filled the slot Renly had been holding open for Barriston Selmy. Remember in the show, Sansa said Stannis wouldn't hurt her? Renly is his brother. Sansa is familiar with all of this. She's heard her father talking about these people, she's heard of them all of her life.

It most certainly does matter what the audience knows. The audience is aware of the truth. That Sansa is being tricked by these people is not something to be overlooked. She's going to know one day. It's extremely relevant.

I still don't get your Shae point. It seems like you're saying because Shae is dead she shouldn't be a major part of Sansa's characterization.

Trusting Dontos or Shae or Brienne is questionable.

Who knows? Loras has no clue that Cat charged her with any task. And while Loras thinks Stannis is behind Renly's death, he doesn't think it was black magic. Brienne being right there and slaying 2 of his guards is suspicious. Loras can easily implicate her as an accessory if not the actual murderer. When did Sansa say anything about Stannis not hurting her? She doesn't even know Stannis.

And again, you're using the benefit of your perception and understanding of the viewers and projecting them onto Sansa. Your perception does not matter. All that matters with regard to characterization and character decisions is what they think. I can't state that any clearer. The audience knows Jaime and Cersei are lovers long before it becomes a plot point. Again, what we know doesn't matter until the characters know it. And if the characters never get a chance to know it or are suspicious then their actions will be contrary to what we believe they should be.

[Le Cygne]

I still don't get your Shae point. It seems like you're saying because Shae is dead she shouldn't be a major part of Sansa's characterization.

No, I said what I said.

1. She's not important to Sansa's book story so far.

2. She's dead, so she won't be in the future, either.

Shae is going to be toast soon, and it's not going to have the slightest impact on her show story, either.

Did Talisa's fantastical story have anything to do with how things went down? No.

Same thing here. They're going from point A to point B, and Shae is a blind alley. They took Sansa down a blind alley.

Loras can easily implicate her as an accessory if not the actual murderer.

So wait a minute. This is supposed to be your favorite show, not mine. Here's what happened:

Margaery: Brienne of Tarth murdered Renly.

Loras: I don't believe that. You don't believe that.

And like I said, Sansa could follow Shae down the hall and find out she's been lying to her.

When did Sansa say anything about Stannis not hurting her? She doesn't even know Stannis.

Blackwater. Again, here's what happened:

Sansa: Stannis won't hurt me.

Like I said, she knows the highborn families. And she also knows not to trust a Lannister maid.

Your perception does not matter. All that matters with regard to characterization and character decisions is what they think.

You're arguing against basic screenwriting. The literary term for this is "dramatic irony".

[Le Cygne]

I was going to comment about this on the other thread, but regressing Sansa to infancy is just a part of it. There's more, and all of this is seasons 2 and 3:

Show Arya: Most girls are idiots. (but she's a girl)

Show Brienne: You sound like a bloody woman. (in the books, the word she used was "craven" so I guess they are saying craven = a woman, thanks for the translation, D&D)

Show Catelyn: I knew I was the worst woman who ever lived. (in the books, she never said any such thing, she just didn't want to raise Ned's bastard)

Show Sansa: You cut a hole in his mattress, and you stuff sheep dung inside. (in the books, she behaved like a lady and barely spoke to him, so no poop jokes to Lannisters she was forced to marry)

Show Asha (Yara): You're a cunt. (in the books, she said, "Cunt again? It was odd how men like Suggs used that word to demean women when it was the only part of a woman they valued.")

Fixed quote...

[go joff go]

^ I think you are too sensitive about this stuff. Its a mysoginistic world in the books and the show.

[Le Cygne]

^ I guess you missed the part where none of the put down of women by women stuff above happened in the books.

[go joff go]

so what? Some would argue that its empowering. Men put down men all the time.

[Le Cygne]

So what, it bothered a lot of women, and men, too. Each of these instances in turn were discussed quite extensively, here and elsewhere.

It's a forum, we're here to discuss the pros and the cons of the show. You don't want to hear the cons, might want to scroll past mine.

[franko99]

So what, it bothered a lot of women, and men, too. Each of these instances in turn were discussed quite extensively, here and elsewhere.

It's a forum, we're here to discuss the pros and the cons of the show. You don't want to hear the cons, might want to scroll past mine.

Show Arya: Most girls are stupid. (but she's a girl)

Show Brienne: You sound like a woman. (in the books, the word she used was "craven" so I guess they are saying craven = a woman, thanks for the translation, D&D)

Show Catelyn: I knew I was the worst woman who ever lived. (in the books, she never said any such thing, she just didn't want to raise Ned's bastard)

Show Sansa: You cut a hole in his mattress, and you stuff sheep dung inside. (in the books, she behaved like a lady and barely spoke to him, so no poop jokes to Lannisters she was forced to marry)

Show Asha (Yara): You're a cunt. (in the books, she said, "Cunt again? It was odd how men like Suggs used that word to demean women when it was the only part of a woman they valued.")

Yes, those have been discussed in this forums, but to be honest I think Arya's and Brienne's are perfectly in character with their book counterpart, if you take then in their context, and I don't see any problem with Sansa other than being too friendly with a Lannister (not exactly book Sansa's behavior but is it really that bad?)

I do agree about Yara, using that word is wrong, and Cat...well...there's not much left to say, isn't it?

[franko99]

Back on topic, I know they are small character, and probably the show won't have enough time to spend, but I would like a scene between Qyburn and Pycelle, it will be fresh to see Pycelle as the good guy (and being right) for once

[Count Balerion]

A lot of these interactions sound excellent, and Lannister dinners particularly. (You'd need a gas mask to deflect all the venom oozing out of the ultimate dysfunctional family.)

Olenna and Cersei, definitely. Olenna and Joffrey? But I don't want them to overdo Olenna.

Danaerys and Jorah (and Barrestan?).

Tommen and Ser Pounce.

[First of My Name]

Yes, yes, yes to all of this.

[Count Balerion]

(Actually, Tommen and Cersei could be interesting.)

[Colonel Green]

so what? Some would argue that its empowering. Men put down men all the time.

No, it's not "empowering" to give misogynist notions to women. Men also don't "put down" men for being men; generally, in fact, they would put down a man by comparing him to a woman.

Yes, those have been discussed in this forums, but to be honest I think Arya's and Brienne's are perfectly in character with their book counterpart, if you take then in their context

I agree about Arya, but not Brienne, who has never demonstrated any issues like that.