The Three-Headed Trios, Er, Dragon

[tormund's beard]

to me preserved doesn't equate to reborn, to me is more similar to the red faith that to anything having to do with ice, you are cosumed by fire and trought that fire you are cleansed and born again.

three headed trios is probably another spin-off of the red faith, like the abrahamanic religions of our world.

[Techelles]

Trios is a pretty damn good catch, so props there. I'd say it was definitely intended to parallel the prophecy. However, I am still on the fence as to whether the prophecy means three people or one person with three aspects. All I'm sure of is that it does, in fact, refer to human beings. The rest, I think, is very much an open question.

What I lean toward, though, is that the prophecy concerns three people, not just one. It makes far more sense to me when I consider the nature of the story so far, which is that it has been told by a wide variety of people from just as wide a variety of perspectives. I expect the story to continue to refrain from zeroing in on any one person. I realize that no one is this thread is claiming that Jon will suddenly become THE hero, so that isn't quite the position I'm arguing against. I'm just saying that I doubt this whole big prophetic build-up will come down to one single person. With Dany around, I find it difficult to believe that the only dragon the prophecy concerns is Jon Snow. I expect it's bigger than that...there are several roles to be filled.

I know that the sigil is one dragon with three heads, and Trios is one deity with three heads, both of which suggest a single being with three aspects, but I'd argue that everything fits just as well if you assume that the dragon is House Targaryen itself, and the three heads are three scions of that house. If a sigil isn't representative of a house, I don't know what is. In the same way, Trios himself is one deity that represents the church, but the three heads represent the three central tenets of the faith: death, ???, and rebirth.

If this is true, then the three heads pretty much have to be Jon, Dany, and Aegon, who is a Blackfyre, and thus still a dragon. Black or red, as they say. This is where GRRM's comment about all the heads not necessarily being Targaryens comes into play. Blackfyre is a distinct House in its own right, so members are not technically Targaryens, but they are still dragons descended from Targaryens, meaning that Aegon still fits the bill.

Basically, I know what makes a bit more sense to me, but I fail to see how one interpretation is inherently more credible than the other at this point.

[Fire Eater]

"If someone asked GRRM about the three heads and already assumed it was three people, do you honestly think GRRM is going to bother to correct them if it isn't?"

...The more I hear this argument, the more it sounds like "justification after the fact," to me. I don't believe GRRM lies, even by omission, to his fans during Q&A sessions. He obviously won't answer questions about where the story is going, but when it comes to a question about one of the pillars of his world's mythology, he WANTS us to understand how that works. When your a writer, you don't deliberately create confusion where you don't have to, and for a story as complex as ASOINF, he has no reason to repeatedly misdirect the reader about the true nature of possibly the single most important prophesy in the world.

It wouldn't be a lie since one of the heads, Ghost, isn't a Targaryen. That pillar of his world mythology is a key part of the story, and he doesn't want to make any big reveals until the prophesied event occurs. He wouldn't be creating confusion since he didn't make any big reveals with that answer, just simply replying to the interviewer's question, not challenging the interviewer's interpretation and all answers will be revealed eventually in the books.

The three heads could be akin to Varamayr Sixskins, who had six skins, his own skin and the skins of his five animals. Jon having three heads would be the heads of him and his two animals: Ghost and a dragon, likely Drogon.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It wouldn't be a lie since one of the heads, Ghost, isn't a Targaryen.

The dragon isn't a Targaryen either, exactly. Nor is every head a Targ if the heads are, say, Jon Snow, Stark and Targaryen. Honestly saying the third head doesn't have to be a Targ is pretty meaningless to me. Who does the questioner think are the first two, and is GRRM aware of that opinion. How are 1, 2, 3 allocated here? Maybe the third head isn't a Targaryen, but does the second have to be? Do ANY of them have to be? The possible interpretations here, none of which involve the author lying, are broader than many seem to realize, or WANT to realize.

[The Idiots Lantern]

(snip)The three heads could be akin to Varamayr Sixskins, (snip)

If it was "the dragon will have three skins," then I'd say it was equivalent. However, a head is not a skin. A skin cannot think, does not want, and does not have to cooperate with anything else to get anything accomplished.

Which is more likely: that GRRM was concealing the colossal importance of one single character, or that he actually meant what he said in more a straightforward kind of way?

[MoIaF]

I think that toumund's beard is correct that the correlation between rebirth and preservation is incorrect.

to me preserved doesn't equate to reborn, to me is more similar to the red faith that to anything having to do with ice, you are cosumed by fire and trought that fire you are cleansed and born again.

three headed trios is probably another spin-off of the red faith, like the abrahamanic religions of our world.

In fact rebirth and preservation are opposites of each other. Webster's dictionary defines preserve as:

:to keep (something) in its original state or in good condition

While it defines rebirth as:

:a new or second birth

If in fact the prophesy of the dragon with three heads has any relation with the god Trios I believe it's as a representation of the destructive (consuming) and creative (creation/rebirth) power of fire. I believe it was already mentioned earlier in the thread that Trios was brought by the slaves from old Valyria.

Lets take for example volcanos. When they erupt they are capable of great destruction devouring everything in it's wake. However, once it has erupted what is left is usually new land mass. My own home country was created by a volcano (I come from an island).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

op: :bowdown: per usual.

Yes, I completely agree. And if the first head is fire, the third head ice, then Jon will be the second and he will balance them out as ice and fire.

And I think Jon's Queen Consort will be pleased with this. :D

:agree: and she is, but her pleasure is nothing special. Anyway, I think that the middle head will be the one that will combine all the power since is the one that has both.

[Dr. Pepper]

If it was "the dragon will have three skins," then I'd say it was equivalent. However, a head is not a skin. A skin cannot think, does not want, and does not have to cooperate with anything else to get anything accomplished.

Do you know why Varamyr was called Sixskins? It's because he controlled six animals. A single person, skinchanging six different animals. Not literally skins. But animals, that shared his thoughts. It was his mind. His 'skins' were thinking 'skins'.

Bran now has several skins. Summer, a raven, Hodor, a tree. When he's warged into Summer, he still thinks, he still wants, his 'skin' cooperates because it's actually him.

Which is more likely: that GRRM was concealing the colossal importance of one single character, or that he actually meant what he said in more a straightforward kind of way?

Both can be just as likely, depending on the question. I know you deny the idea that an answer can differ depending on the question, but it's actually true. We don't actually have the question, which sucks. Either way, the third head not needing to be a Targaryen can fit with both a single entity or three separate people. This comment says nothing about the two other heads or the nature of the three-headed dragon.

[MoIaF]

I get the concept you're all trying to portray with the idea of Varamy Sixskins but it doesn't really relate to the dragon with 3 heads prophesy. To warg/skinchange is to control one animal (or person) at a time.

In order for those two concepts ( the 3 headed dragon with being a warm/ skinchanger) to relate with each other Jon will have to be able to control a dragon, Ghost and himself at the same time. All three would have to be moving as one, in unison. Which can't be done.

Having a dragon with three heads, is having three separate wants and needs and directing them to one goal. If all three heads aren't on the same page, then one head is going to push forward while the other two push to each sides.

This is why I believe is three different people. These three separate people will want and need three separate things yet they will have to learn to understand each other and agree to move forward with one goal in mind putting aside their own personal wants. Whatever inner conflicts Jon Snow (or whatever he calls himself by the end) has, this story isn't solely about his inner struggle. ASOIAF is the story of the inner struggle of a multitude of characters who at one point or another will have to put those aside and decide whether or not they will fight for politics or survival.

ETA: I should add that in trying to dig deep into the prophesy some have lost sight of the concept behind having an animal with three heads. To have three heads is to see the word from thre different angles, to hear things from three difference side and to have three different perspectives of the world. You can't achieve that with just one person, especially a person who has spent their entire life in one place.

ETA 2: Hopefully I made my thoughts clearer. :)

[King of Winters]

I get the concept you're all trying to portray with the idea of Varamy Sixskins but it doesn't really relate to the dragon with 3 heads prophesy. To warg/skinchange is to control one animal (or person) at a time.

In order for those two to relate with each other Jon will have to be able to control a dragon, Ghost and himself at the same time. All three would have to be moving as one, in unison.

Having a dragon with three heads, is having three separate wants and needs and directing them to one goal. If all three heads aren't on the same page, then one head is going to push forward while the other two push to each side.

This is why I believe is three different people. These three separate people will want and need three separate things yet they will have to learn to understand each other and agree to move forward with one goal in mind putting aside their own personal wants. Whatever inner conflicts Jon Snow (or whatever he calls himself by the end) has, this story isn't solely about his inner struggle. ASOIAF is the story of the inner struggle of a multitude of characters who at one point or another will have to put those aside and decide whether or not they will fight for politics or survival.

Varamyr Sixskins is called "Sixskins" because he has six animals he skinchanges into at separate times. He has six skins (including his own) in which he can live in. He's not called "Sixskins" because he can skinchange all his animals at once.

[MoIaF]

Thank you for agreeing with me, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Sorry about that.

[King of Winters]

Thank you for agreeing with me, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Sorry about that.

I was actually saying Jon can still be the 3Headed Dragon as he can have Ghost, himself and Drogon, because he can still have three skins even if he can't skinchange Drogon and warg Ghost at the same time.

[MoIaF]

But then that isn't a 3 headed dragon, is it? If indeed it was then one head would be moving forward while the other two limp behind unconscious because no one is controlling them. In order to be a 3 headed dragon all three heads need to be conscious and cohesively moving at the same time and in the same direction.

Having the ability to control one animal at a time, does not a 3 headed dragon make.

[The guy from the Vale]

But then that isn't a 3 headed dragon, is it? If indeed it was then one head would be moving forward while the other two limp behind unconscious because no one is controlling them. In order to be a 3 headed dragon all three heads need to be conscious and cohesively moving at the same time and in the same direction.

Having the ability to control animals a different times, does not a 3 headed dragon make.

I don't think the Three-Headed Dragon refers to warging (although it well might). There's also the idea that it might refer to three heads of houses or organisations, in one body. You can even keep the animal symbolism there - Jon Stark, heir of Robb Stark (wolf); Jon Snow, bastard commander of the Night's Watch (crow); and Jon Targaryen, Rhaegar's only living son and heir (dragon). If so, the "working together towards a common goal" might well mean that Jon might need to lead all three houses/organisations towards the goal of defeating the Others - he would be the three-headed Dragon.

[King of Winters]

But then that isn't a 3 headed dragon, is it? If indeed it was then one head would be moving forward while the other two limp behind unconscious because no one is controlling them. In order to be a 3 headed dragon all three heads need to be conscious and cohesively moving at the same time and in the same direction.

Having the ability to control one animal at a time, does not a 3 headed dragon make.

Basically this...

I don't think the Three-Headed Dragon refers to warging (although it well might). There's also the idea that it might refer to three heads of houses or organisations, in one body. You can even keep the animal symbolism there - Jon Stark, heir of Robb Stark (wolf); Jon Snow, bastard commander of the Night's Watch (crow); and Jon Targaryen, Rhaegar's only living son and heir (dragon). If so, the "working together towards a common goal" might well mean that Jon might need to lead all three houses/organisations towards the goal of defeating the Others - he would be the three-headed Dragon.

It's all symbolic. The "dragon" is a Targ and if Jon is it then it all fits into place.

[MoIaF]

I don't think the Three-Headed Dragon refers to warging (although it well might). There's also the idea that it might refer to three heads of houses or organisations, in one body. You can even keep the animal symbolism there - Jon Stark, heir of Robb Stark (wolf); Jon Snow, bastard commander of the Night's Watch (crow); and Jon Targaryen, Rhaegar's only living son and heir (dragon). If so, the "working together towards a common goal" might well mean that Jon might need to lead all three houses/organisations towards the goal of defeating the Others - he would be the three-headed Dragon.

I'm sorry but that's not really an apt analogy for the dragon has three heads prophesy. You saing that Jon is/will be a wolf, crow and dragon leaves the behind the human aspect of him, which would make it four different aspects instead of three. In fact, if I take your analogy as correct, it still wouldn't work. Jon could not cohesively embody all three at the same time. He would have to choose between being a crow, a wolf or a dragon. if he's a crow, he gives up being a wolf and a dragon, if he's a wolf he cant be a crow and the same goes for being a dragon. The idea behind the three heads of the dragon is the embodiment of three completely different beings in one place and at the same time. Having had three different roles, titles or last names means having them at three separate times, not at once. I know where you are coming from, you believe in the theory of the three aspects of Jon, but as a mentioned earlier that doesn't really ring true with the story GRRM is writing.

Having a dragons with three heads is not akin to having a person struggle with three different identities. Thats still one person, with one view of the world, with one perspective. Where are the other two seperate perspectives? Where are the other two views of the world? As i mentioned earlier this isn't a story about the inner struggles of Jon Snow, it's the story of the inner struggles of a society. Everyone fighting over different things, all different perspectives, all different wants and needs. Yet, doom is coming we need three separate leader to bring their faction, minds, intellect together for one goal. Jon Snow is not going to bring the whole of Westeros amd Essos together to fight for dawn, that's just not happening.

ETA: For clarification.

[Fire Eater]

I think the first head is specifically Drogon. Dragons are predators, and every animal they eat is dead, the same is true for nearly all other predators. Barsena was dying by the time Drogon roasted her and the boar.

I think Drogon fits the ice and fire ethos with Ghost the best as the animals are foils to one another:

Drogon is black

Ghost is white

Drogon makes a lot of noise (making his presence known) wherever he goes like when he burns down the HotU at Qarth, the damage he caused at Astapor and burning the tokar of the Yunkish envoy, and creating a mess in Meereen when comes back as well as leaving patches of burnt grass in the Dothraki Sea

Ghost is quiet, and his presence can go unnoticed since he can't make any noise and he doesn't leave any damage

Drogon is wild, and Dany has trouble controlling him such as when he ate Hazzea

Ghost is trained, and Jon doesn't have any problems with Ghost attacking people until the Ides of Marsh

[yolkboy]

This is a really great thread, the best new insight for the 3 header I've seen. The Trios quote i had completely overlooked, and might be the most important line for figuring oout the 3 headed dragon in the books. And the ice/fire dichotomy was a really good link up and I think it's completely relevant. Given the secret dragon Jon is a prime suspect for the 3HD, it would be fitting, and perhaps expected that there's an ice/fire theme in there.

Regarding the rebirth head - as stated, it's resembles Ghost somewhat. It was alluded to in the OP that Ghost would be a placeholder vehicle for Jon's 'rebirth' - I'll go a step further and say Ghost will be a literal part of Jon's next incarnation - his next 'head'. As Varamyr told us, if you stay too long inside a beast you might bring back some of the beasts mind when you return to your own body. It's foreshadowed that Jon's body will go into the ice cell - perhaps for preservation ("ice preserves") - an example of the foredhadowing.... the only time we see Jon actually in an ice cell in aDwD - he sees his reflection in there, he sees himself.

If Jon does go into the ice cell, and his mind is inside Ghost, he will no doubt come back as half-Ghost when reborn. Ghost will become part of his new personality - and that might be what's being refereed to as a second 'head'. A new incarnation of Jon.

The other head is more difficult, if we're considering 3 incarnations of Jon, and I'm of the opinion we can't get there with the information we have yet. But I can't help wondering if his 'blood of the dragon' will be relevant, I think there must be some physical/active reason why Jon's secret Stark-Targ heritage is important, other that being symbolic etc. This makes me wonder if we're being misdirected about Targs thinking they have 'special' properties - they might not be fireproof etc, but is there something latent in their blood, akin to the warging magic of first men blood? What that might be, I have no idea, but in the context of the OP, the head seems to point towards something dragon related.

We see this dichotomy in other places. The ice cells of the Watch, and Davos describing fire as "consuming" the statues of the Seven.

This reminds me of something I was considering - if Jon's body is preserved in the ice cells, which are completely freezing over right now, he would have to be cut out encased in ice. If Mel's around to try and resurrect, she'll probably build a pyre, and it will be snowing. Reborn amidst snow* and smoke?

The rebirth of Azor Ahai might be the most important event in the history of the planet, so I expect the Ice & Fire theme to be really balanced and emphasised in this scene, especially if Jon is the focal point.

(*salt=snow from that idea from tze, that the prophesy maker had not seen snow so called it salt.).

[Fire Eater]

This reminds me of something I was considering - if Jon's body is preserved in the ice cells, which are completely freezing over right now, he would have to be cut out encased in ice. If Mel's around to try and resurrect, she'll probably build a pyre, and it will be snowing. Reborn amidst snow* and smoke?

The rebirth of Azor Ahai might be the most important event in the history of the planet, so I expect the Ice & Fire theme to be really balanced and emphasised in this scene, especially if Jon is the focal point.

(*salt=snow from that idea from tze, that the prophesy maker had not seen snow so called it salt.).

I think it is more to do with the smoked and salted meats in the ice storerooms.

[yolkboy]

I think it is more to do with the smoked and salted meats in the ice storerooms.

I don't think these puzzles will turn out so literal, personally. Remember someone probably made these prophesies from a vision a long time ago - why would they mention the preservation methods of surrounding foodstuffs? And what would that add storywise, this perhaps the most important moment in the planets history, grrm will want to be bringing in his central themes as much as is possible, at this moment.