DORAN'S LAW - The Grass That Hides The Viper

[Ser Underline]

The main reason (other than the one where i'm teamDarkstar) why i think Darkstar is working with Doran is the way Doran treats him. Same as he dismisses Sarella's "games" in oldtown as of no importance - he says that Darkie is the most dangerous man in Dorne - do not try to cooperate with him! It's a trick GRRM's characters often tend to do. in the GNC theory threads you could've read how Blackfish never mentions Jon Snow as an option, Manderly neither. GRRM wants us to think we see it all, but the closer you think you are, the less you actually see. another offtopic-y example: the pink letter mentions everyone at fMance's pyre EXCEPT the wooden horn thing. Sarella's playing - don't mind her. Darkie's dangerous - stay away from him.

Just my pieces of the puzzle that is Dorne.

[I S**t Gold]

So if Myrcella is really dead, Dorne will have to bet all on Aegon. And I'm sure that will work out just fine /sarcasm

If you're right about the poison thing, you're dead right about everything else (except for the sarcastic bits but then you're intentionally wrong). I still can't see how Darkstar fails to kill her outright, why he would bother with poison, and why if killing her was the goal he wouldn't just have cut her down? Can I ask what especially makes you think that Myrcella was poisoned? Is that from the text or just a hunch? Not nitpicking, just interested.

The main reason (other than the one where i'm teamDarkstar) why i think Darkstar is working with Doran is the way Doran treats him. Same as he dismisses Sarella's "games" in oldtown as of no importance - he says that Darkie is the most dangerous man in Dorne - do not try to cooperate with him! It's a trick GRRM's characters often tend to do. in the GNC theory threads you could've read how Blackfish never mentions Jon Snow as an option, Manderly neither. GRRM wants us to think we see it all, but the closer you think you are, the less you actually see. another offtopic-y example: the pink letter mentions everyone at fMance's pyre EXCEPT the wooden horn thing. Sarella's playing - don't mind her. Darkie's dangerous - stay away from him.

Just my pieces of the puzzle that is Dorne.

Here is someone who understands Doran's Law. That is absolutely how I see Doran. There are patterns in the series of novels, precedents, and a lot of my theory comes from little more than the fact it has happened previously elsewhere. EG - the Balon Greyjoy school of parenting. GRRM likes to toy with us, and he does it quite beautifully. I think potentially, the Doran plotline could be the best example of it yet.

[Jon of the Dead]

If you're right about the poison thing, you're dead right about everything else (except for the sarcastic bits but then you're intentionally wrong). I still can't see how Darkstar fails to kill her outright, why he would bother with poison, and why if killing her was the goal he wouldn't just have cut her down? Can I ask what especially makes you think that Myrcella was poisoned? Is that from the text or just a hunch? Not nitpicking, just interested.

It was something I read in another thread,

that Oberyn said Dorkstar was "poison"

And yeah, he could've killed Myrcella from a single strike but maybe he legitimately failed, shit happens and all that. But if his blade was poisoned his job was done.

[I S**t Gold]

It was something I read in another thread.

Ah OK. I hadn't considered that little quote. I'd definitely be more convinced if Oberyn had said he used poison rather than was poison. Oberyn should know poison when he sees it, it's definitely horrible stuff. Definitely makes me rethink the possibility of Doran ordering Myrcella's maiming, but I'm still 100% certain he's the one who 'betrayed' Arianne, and I'm not ready to rule out the possibility totally either. Thanks for that mate.

[Ser Underline]

Darkie was said to have been poison. It was also said that he is more Viper than Oberyn ever could be.

I ask you a simple thing, with the assumption that Myrcella only lost an ear (I belive the Corn Code aswell): If a person so familiar with poison and vipers, knows there could be fight at the end of their journey, he would surely coat his weapon in said poison? One assumption leads to another one: Darkie is working with Doran, he betrayed Arianne and deliberately attacked the little princess, hoping to non-lethally harm her (stab wound, lost limb, lost ear), to set the war preparations in motion.

[I S**t Gold]

Definitely the 'more viper than Oberyn could ever be' quote makes me think he's definitely the sort of person to coat his weapon in poison. Then again, if he's the mole, surely he would know that the fight he is getting into is one where he is guaranteed an escape, so then maybe no poison?

The second assumption was my assumption, but forgive me, I can't see how the first assumption leads to the second, although they both seem logical assumptions. I would have thought if Darkstar habitually coated his blade in poison that would mean Myrcella is basically toast?

Again this is out of interest, and I have to admit the 'more viper than Oberyn could ever be' quote piques my interest. That could also mean that Oberyn's code of honour prevents him from doing some of the things Darkstar is happy to do. At the moment with the snakes and Darkstar I'm thinking that Doran's gone from one viper to seven. But it could also mean that Darkstar did poison Myrcella admittedly. Damn you ambiguity!

[Ser Underline]

I'm looking at it like this:

He's a huge viper, so to speak. Yet he still didn't coat his weapon in poison, knowing what he is going to do, and how he must do it.

Harm the girl to make the Kingsguard go after you, kill the capable Kingsguard (nr. 2 archer in the 7 Kingdoms) weakening the Kings defence overall.

Bit of long shot here with my theory of purpose. Perhaps it's because i'm hoping Myrcella's alive, and Darkie is teamDorne. Do forgive me :D

[I S**t Gold]

No mate, my bad, that was me misreading your post. It sounds like you and I are completely in agreement on the answer to the Darkstar riddle. There's just so many things that don't make sense otherwise, for me at least. I like the way you think Ser Underline, cheers.

[raegal_targaryen]

thinking a little bit on it, and it makes sense from one angle to have darkstar kill balon swann, protects his son, and daughter from the it. keeps the war out of dorne and gives him more time to prepare. i assume balon swann sent a raven too the queen.that he was gonne track down darkstar what ever happens there none can say doran was behind.

and sarella to me seems more fascinated by the dragon has three heads. so targaryen restoration is what dorne wants it will give him far more influence in the 7 kingdoms.

[jarl the climber]

It was Oberyn and Darry who signed the marriage deal between Viserys and Arrianne and it was witnessed by the Sealord of Bravos. Illryio had nothing to do with it.

[Pearlthegirl]

Just a thought, off topic but in line with Darkstar's poisoned blade posts...have we heard of a communicable poison yet? So Mayhaps he dosed Myrcella with something nasty to take home to family Lannister. You know, the Dornish would've spent a lifetime building up anti-bodies against it. Citadel knowledge would come in handy here no?

As far as the OP is concerned, maybe Doran & Dorne will end up well placed but I think GRRM was saying something with all the overripe fruit splatterings. His plans went past their prime. Just an opinion, I'm still happy to root for Dorne.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Interesting theory. I like it, I like it a lot.

Except that Darkstar slicing up Myrcella on purpose seems a bit of a stretch for me, we have Arianne saying that Darkstar only missed because she moved her head at the last second.

I definitely think that Doran will probably turn out to have more things going on than we've been led to believe, maybe.

[Drexyon7]

I would read Arianne's TWOW chapter, there is a line in there that makes me 100% certain Doran didn't intentionally sacrifice his son.

On the other hand your ideas about Sarella are good. It never occurred to me that she could be working for Doran already I just wrote her off as another free spirited Sand Snake.

@Jon of the dead

-Doesn't Arianne use the term poison to describe his attitude? wouldn't Oberyn be referring to that? the fact that Darkstar is a huge douche. dudes clearly volatile and has some issues.

[Jon of the Dead]

@Jon of the dead

-Doesn't Arianne use the term poison to describe his attitude? wouldn't Oberyn be referring to that? the fact that Darkstar is a huge douche. dudes clearly volatile and has some issues.

Well, yes, could be. I just took it as a kind of hint coupled with the fact that Doran says Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne, if I remember correctly.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

I would read Arianne's TWOW chapter, there is a line in there that makes me 100% certain Doran didn't intentionally sacrifice his son.

Which line was that? (roughly)

[I S**t Gold]

snip

Definitely I think they will expect Dorne had something to do with Balon's death, but proving it is another matter entirely. At the moment Kings Landing kind of has a lot on it's plate though, so any kind of vengeance on Dorne would probably have to be postponed.

It was Oberyn and Darry who signed the marriage deal between Viserys and Arrianne and it was witnessed by the Sealord of Bravos. Illryio had nothing to do with it.

Wasn't it Illyrio who related that story to Tyrion though? I got the impression he was physically present. Do they let people who have nothing to do with a secret plan wander in and watch their secret plans take place? Later on Viserys ended up in his custody. Illyrio may not have signed the papers, but saying he had nothing to do with it seems like a stretch. Also, Illyrio is likely to play down his involvement a tad given Tyrion is hardly one of his most trusted confidantes. no?

As far as the OP is concerned, maybe Doran & Dorne will end up well placed but I think GRRM was saying something with all the overripe fruit splatterings. His plans went past their prime. Just an opinion, I'm still happy to root for Dorne.

Definitely a plausible excuse for Oberyn's visits to the citadel may have been poison expertise. Maybe there's four poison links you can earn and once he got them he gave up? Whilst in the citadel I believe he saw something that in hindsight he realized would be very important to Doran's plans, which is why Sarella is there. We know from Pycelle, who is quite the poison buff himself, that the citadel is the place to go for poison knowledge, so that post of yours feels like it could explain another piece of the puzzle.

I actually meant to add another point to the OP that you've just reminded me of. Lot to type and that was one of the things that slipped my mind.

This post was only meant to make the point that Doran is one of the best planners in the series. However no matter how good your plans the potential threats are that great that there's no way to prepare yourself for all of them. Even if you allow that he's solved the Aegon and Dany threats by placating them with marriage pacts and is on the point of winning the Lannister feud, Doran seems to have put next to no thought into the northern problem. That's sensible in a way, because as far as Doran knows the north is eating himself and he's never heard of the Others, but snow in Dorne seems very GRRM. I am saying here that of all of the great leaders Doran may very well be the best prepared for what comes, but that does not mean those preparations will be adequate. Things like the Undead mountain are things that Doran never factored into his equations because he's not stuck in a Bran-tree, he's still human. I have a little suspicion that by the end of the series, things are going to get that bad that nobody is going to give two hoots about the iron throne. So I absolutely agree with you there, when you say things could go badly for Dorne. I just won't blame Doran for it.

Except that Darkstar slicing up Myrcella on purpose seems a bit of a stretch for me, we have Arianne saying that Darkstar only missed because she moved her head at the last second.

Well I kind of think Arianne is the ultimate in unreliable narrators, but don't worry, you're in good company there. Loads of people have a problem with it, including me and of all the bits of the theory, this is the one I'm still not entirely happy with. I would bet my house that Darkstar is the mole, but the Myrcella thing is still puzzling me.

I would read Arianne's TWOW chapter, there is a line in there that makes me 100% certain Doran didn't intentionally sacrifice his son.

On the other hand your ideas about Sarella are good. It never occurred to me that she could be working for Doran already I just wrote her off as another free spirited Sand Snake.

Thank you kindly. I should say that I don't believe Doran sacrificed Quent. I believe that Quentyn was expendable. I'm not sure that Doran wished any harm to Quent, and it's obvious that Doran could never have planned Quentyn running into the dragon's dead. I'm just saying that because of the Yronwood's corrupting influence Doran had written Quentyn off as a future heir, and that Quentyn dying was not detrimental to Doran's schemes in any way.

Well, yes, could be. I just took it as a kind of hint coupled with the fact that Doran says Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne, if I remember correctly.

Yeah there's also a quote someone posted above about Darkstar being more of a viper than Oberyn which made me think they might be talking job description rather than metaphor. Of course I'm pushing the idea that Darkstar is one of many vipers Doran is hiding behind his gouty foot, so it would be rather nice if it turned out to mean that.

[Drexyon7]

Which line was that? (roughly)

Spoiler

His voice broke when he said that. "Where are the dragons?" he asked. "Where is Daenerys?" and Arianne knew that he was really saying, "Where is my son?"

Made me tear up a little :crying:

[Martell Spy]

Darkstar himself says he was weaned on venom and that any viper that takes a bite out of him will rue it. Of course this is one of the reasons the character annoys so many. He's like the Zapp Brannigan of ASOIF.

[H'ghar the Horribler]

snip

Bravo! I quite like your OP, and certainly agree with you about Doran being a schemer right up there in the top echelons of schemers. IIRC, there was a thread on here about who Varys was thinking of when he told Ned that Littlefinger was only the second-most dangerous man in the 7 kingdoms, and a lot of people speculated it was Doran. I'm fully convinced that's indeed the case.

Myrcella getting injured kind of reminds me of Jaime being maimed, and there was a bit of reasoning in the book about what the Goat's motivations there were.. maybe a foreshadowing of the Myrcella situation?

A side-question: I've always wondered why Tyrion decided on Trystane to marry Myrcella off to - wouldn't Quentin have been the more logical option? Your theory about Doran choosing Trys as his successor makes sense, but how would Tyrion know Trys was the intended heir, and not just a second son of a noble house? Not someone to marry off the king's sister to, IMO! The age difference wouldn't have been too huge either, especially compared to, say Lysa and Jon Arryn. Can't remember if there's any light shed on this in the books, or the forums.

[redriver]

No mate, my bad, that was me misreading your post. It sounds like you and I are completely in agreement on the answer to the Darkstar riddle. There's just so many things that don't make sense otherwise, for me at least. I like the way you think Ser Underline, cheers.

It might help to have a read of this.

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Princes.html

Not that I always agree with his overall conclusions,but Bran Vas is always worth reading for the detail and pattern recognition.It might help with you're theory.