The Unknown Targaryens

[Wynter Manderly]

I think so, he's already said he has too many characters and intends to start thinning the herd. I'm sure we'll meet at least a few more people(Howland for instance) but probably not any big shockers. Hopefully no more Targaryens other than the obvious but we already know him.

yeah, i agree. its better no more surprise characters. hmmm... i wonder who's the third dragon rider then :idea: but that's in another thread somewhere.

[Mithras]

Egg was gentle but when it comes to Aerion, he really hated the guy.

[Veltigar]

snip

First, I would like to say that this was a real thoughtfull post and I'll do my best to answer it.

But see, there's the problem. The only thing we have that could possibly be a connection between Varys and Serra, is (1) they were both at one point in their lives in Lys, Varys being born there, Serra working in a pillowhouse there, and (2) they both knew Illyrio at some point in their lives, though Varys got to know his a whole lot sooner.

There are two other connections between them. 3) they were both slaves and had a shitty life. 4) They both probably have Valyrian looks. With Serra we know for sure, but we can be fairly certain that Varys has them to since the only other character we know of that shaves himself like Varys is Egg, who did it to hide his Targ-identity.

If Aerion had an infant son, and the boy was legimate, why would Egg not take care of the boy? Egg's a gentel person, and I don't see him killing children anytime soon, nor can I imagine him exiling a small child, who has done nothing wrong, his own blood, simply because Aerion was a terrible person? So this boy would have been taken care off, and rather well, most likely.

First I don't think we can be sure that Aerion's son was not a bastard. He might be trueborn, but that doesn't necesseraly have to be like that.

And the reason why Aegon would have banished the child (or rather left it in Lys) would be that he might have been a threat to Eggs claim or that of his children when he grew up. Don't forget that this is shortly after the BF rebellions. Daeron II was tolerant of Daemon and let him live in peace at court and it eventually lead to the biggest civil war in Westeros since the Dance, killing thousands of people all at once.

When you say infant, I'm thinking about a child of about 1 year old. Since Aerion died in 232 AL, I'm guessing the child was born in 231 or 232 AL. That would have made him 20 in 250 AL. Since he wouldn't be a priority when marriage comes into play, he probably wasn't married young (and with young, I mean 13 or 14 years old, which seems to happen a lot in the Targaryen family).

Actually, those that don't seem to be a priority seem to marry younger. Maekar was very young when he married and given that Daemon Blackfyre was 26 when he died and already had 12 year old trueborn sons he married young as well. And Viserys II children were all older than those of his older brother Aegon III.

So, I believe that he could have been a father very early on and thus had a generation between Varys and himself. Or perhaps he was indeed the father of Varys himself, that would perhaps be a better option.

How can the son of a prince, and yes, Aerions son would have been a true prince, since he was legimate, be born a slave in Lys?

They could have been captured and sold a slave (IIRC Tyrion reads a book about that happening to two girls on the ship to Illyrio in ADWD). Or most likely poverty.

My own guess would be that Aerion son was not trueborn. The nobles just took him into consideration because they were so desperate (After all they were prepared to put a Maester on the IT). But even if he was there are loads of ways to go from hero to zero. The most likely of those imo is that Aegon simply didn't care for the boy and left him at peace, because he was to far away to be a threat. Whatever wealth the boy had could then be stolen by servants (Like the Braavosi servants stealing Viserys and Dany's possessions), it could be confiscated by the people in power (Knowing Aerion he probably made a lot of enemies in Lys) or perhaps his mother (or he himself in later years) pissed all his money away.

But the most likely scenario is that they probably didn't have that much money, Aerion doesn't seem like the kind of guy who takes good care of the financial aspects, he probably send all creditors to KL and when his son did not become King his checks basically bounced and those angry creditors sold his boy and his mother into slavery.

Add to that that when you're born a slave, you are sold at a very early age. You probably won't remember anyone of your family. How would Varys have possibly remembered, or come into contact with Serra?

It's Varys we are talking about, the guy can find out anything. Although I do think you make an interesting point. One of the problems people often have is that Varys first went to Illyrio before returning to Lys. If he didn't really remember her that might offer an explanation.

If you have any idea's on this, I would love to hear them though. But I can't really believe Aerion's son is related to Varys, nor that Varys and Serra are related (though this story is written by GRRM, and thus, everything can happen :) )

I'd say that there is enough circumstantial evidence to connect Varys and Serra as brother and sister (the 4 points). I do get that people have a hard time accepting the Brightflame connection (again only circumstantial evidence that points that way), we'll have to wait and see of course.

One of the main (more meta) reasons why I believe that Varys and Serra are brother and sister and why they are both Brightflames. Is that it would be very interesting. It would add a layer of intrigue and drama on to the normal Faegon storyline.

If Illyrio turns out to be a Blackfyre and V&S are Brightflames than their alliance would have been sealed through the marriage of Serra and Illyrio. That's a very Westerosi way to roll (+ I think it would also better explain Illyrio's familiarity with the GC and his past as a warrior and the fact that Faegon has a full Targ look, something that I'd find harder to accept if one of his parents is a non-Valyrian).

A band between Varys and Serra would also add extra drama to it since the stakes for Vays are personal it's about his relatives. If Varys and Serra don't turn out to be related than there is actually zero reasons for Varys to care about the IT. I know some people fall for all the crap about having a perfect King but I just don't buy it. Varys and LF are the greatest players, and they don't play for nothing. If they just wanted an ideal fluffy bunny type of world than they should have taken over a free city. Much easier to do and with less risks.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

First, I would like to say that this was a real thoughtfull post and I'll do my best to answer it.

Thanks! Your answer was very extensive (not sure if this is the right word for it, English isn't my native language)

There are two other connections between them. 3) they were both slaves and had a shitty life. 4) They both probably have Valyrian looks. With Serra we know for sure, but we can be fairly certain that Varys has them to since the only other character we know of that shaves himself like Varys is Egg, who did it to hide his Targ-identity.

I agree that they were both slaves. We know for certain that Egg shaved his head. But we don't know for certain if Varys does. He might actually be a eunuch, and eunuch's (when cut at an early age, before puberty sets in) are hairless. Illyrio does describe Serra to have Valyrian looks, agreed, but the whore that Jorah found in Volantes, for example, also had Valyrian features. There are many women (and men) with Valyrian features. Still, even if Varys had the Valyrian looks when he was a kid, we simply don't know if he's shaving it all. When you shave, at the end of the day, you'll see the stubble appearing already. Are you telling me that Varys shaves several times a day? And that he never misses an hair? It's possible I guess, but not very likely.

First I don't think we can be sure that Aerion's son was not a bastard. He might be trueborn, but that doesn't necesseraly have to be like that.

And the reason why Aegon would have banished the child (or rather left it in Lys) would be that he might have been a threat to Eggs claim or that of his children when he grew up. Don't forget that this is shortly after the BF rebellions. Daeron II was tolerant of Daemon and let him live in peace at court and it eventually lead to the biggest civil war in Westeros since the Dance, killing thousands of people all at once.

Maekar tells Dunk in The Hedge Knight that he has send Aerion to Lys for a few years. Aerion dies in 232 AL, about twenty years later. His son is born approximately a year before that. So I am assuming here that Aerion has already returned (for a long time) to Westeros. Remember, during the Spring Sickness, three Targaryens died. They lost four family members within a year, and their family got smaller because of that. It would only make sense to accept Aerion back into Westeros, since Aerys and Aelinor weren't going to have any children (Aerys shunning her bed wasn't going to change, it was his nature and everyone could see it), and Rhaegel was sickly. As many Targaryens as they could possibly gather were necessary in Westeros to keep their grip on the Iron throne. I don't think Aerion had remained in Lys for more than, let's say 5 or 6 years.

So if Aerion was in Westeros, his infant child would have been as well. I agree he might have been a treath to Egg or his children later in life, but the boy was an infant, and wouldn't have remembered his father. They could have used that, and told the child his father was another man. I just can't picture Egg leaving a child helpless like that, though he (and his council) would have wanted to keep an eye on the child. But isn't that easier to do if you keep the child close by you?

Actually, those that don't seem to be a priority seem to marry younger. Maekar was very young when he married and given that Daemon Blackfyre was 26 when he died and already had 12 year old trueborn sons he married young as well. And Viserys II children were all older than those of his older brother Aegon III.

So, I believe that he could have been a father very early on and thus had a generation between Varys and himself. Or perhaps he was indeed the father of Varys himself, that would perhaps be a better option.

I agree, Maekar was young when he married, but that could be explained by Daemon being an only child for a very long time. Daemon wanted his line to be secured, and so he married his sons off at an early age, and they all (except for Aerys) had children, securing the line for a very long time (as stated in the Hedge Knight: Good King Daeron had four grown sons, three with sons of their own. The line of the dragonkings had almost died out during his father's day, but it was said that Daeron II and his sons had left is secure for all time).

Daemon marrying young, I'm guessing Daena had a hand in this. Daemon turned out to be capable of being influenced by his half-brother and friends, why wouldn't his mother be capable of it as well?

About Viserys II, that's actually easily explained. The Dance was over, and most Targaryens had died. Aegon III married the daughter of Aegon II, but the girl was only a couple of years old. She couldn't reproduce yet. And Viserys was almost of an age to get married. Aegon III faithfully stayed married to his Targaryen bride, but she died about eleven or twelve years later. It's very possible she had gotten pregnant too soon, and died due to complications.

So Aegon III knew his marriage wouldn't include children for a while. To continue his line, his brother Viserys II had to marry and reproduce as quickly as possible. So Viserys II marrying young and having children that were older that Aegon's are explained as such.

They could have been captured and sold a slave (IIRC Tyrion reads a book about that happening to two girls on the ship to Illyrio in ADWD). Or most likely poverty.

But Varys was born into slavery. Though it's a nice catch that Tyrion read a book about children being sold into slavery at young age on his way to Illyrio, since Illyrio and Varys are such good friends.

My own guess would be that Aerion son was not trueborn. The nobles just took him into consideration because they were so desperate (After all they were prepared to put a Maester on the IT). But even if he was there are loads of ways to go from hero to zero. The most likely of those imo is that Aegon simply didn't care for the boy and left him at peace, because he was to far away to be a threat. Whatever wealth the boy had could then be stolen by servants (Like the Braavosi servants stealing Viserys and Dany's possessions), it could be confiscated by the people in power (Knowing Aerion he probably made a lot of enemies in Lys) or perhaps his mother (or he himself in later years) pissed all his money away.

But the most likely scenario is that they probably didn't have that much money, Aerion doesn't seem like the kind of guy who takes good care of the financial aspects, he probably send all creditors to KL and when his son did not become King his checks basically bounced and those angry creditors sold his boy and his mother into slavery.

Why would the nobles be so desperate to find a Targaryen king that they would consider a Targaryen basterd, if there are still older Targaryens available? Aemon was available, even if he was a maester, and Egg was available as well., next would have come the daughters, Rhae and Daella. I believe that it is stated somewhere that first all the trueborn sons are in line for inheritance, next all the daughters, than all other available options (like far removed family, or bastards).

I already agrued that the chance that Aerions child was living in Lys at the time is most incredibly small. But I do agree that Aerion is not the kind of guy to care about his children, or his wife, for that matter.

It's Varys we are talking about, the guy can find out anything. Although I do think you make an interesting point. One of the problems people often have is that Varys first went to Illyrio before returning to Lys. If he didn't really remember her that might offer an explanation.

I never read anywhere that Varys first returned to Lys? He told Tyrion he was sold in Myr, when his mummer's group was holding a show there, and a strange man offered a very large sum of money for Varys. The man took Varys home and kicked him out of his house when he was done with him. The mummer's group had left already at this point. Varys then became the best thief in Myr, until a rival forced him to move to Pentos. From Pentos he went to Kings Landing. So when in all of this did he go to Lys again? Because I can't remember.

I'd say that there is enough circumstantial evidence to connect Varys and Serra as brother and sister (the 4 points). I do get that people have a hard time accepting the Brightflame connection (again only circumstantial evidence that points that way), we'll have to wait and see of course.

One of the main (more meta) reasons why I believe that Varys and Serra are brother and sister and why they are both Brightflames. Is that it would be very interesting. It would add a layer of intrigue and drama on to the normal Faegon storyline.

I still can't really see that Varys and Serra are related. But it does sound better than the whole "Varys is a Blackfyre" theory. But indeed we will have to wait (unfortunately). Varys being a Brightflame would indeed explain why Varys is interested in who sits on the throne. I have always been wondering about that, and no matter how much I'm looking at Varys and his storyline, I'm still not entirely seeing the why. Your theory could be a possible explanation though. Though I'm still hoping, and thinking, that Aegon is real. It would still add more believability (is that a word?) to the story though, if Varys is somehow related.

If Illyrio turns out to be a Blackfyre and V&S are Brightflames than their alliance would have been sealed through the marriage of Serra and Illyrio. That's a very Westerosi way to roll (+ I think it would also better explain Illyrio's familiarity with the GC and his past as a warrior and the fact that Faegon has a full Targ look, something that I'd find harder to accept if one of his parents is a non-Valyrian).

A band between Varys and Serra would also add extra drama to it since the stakes for Vays are personal it's about his relatives. If Varys and Serra don't turn out to be related than there is actually zero reasons for Varys to care about the IT. I know some people fall for all the crap about having a perfect King but I just don't buy it. Varys and LF are the greatest players, and they don't play for nothing. If they just wanted an ideal fluffy bunny type of world than they should have taken over a free city. Much easier to do and with less risks.

If Illyrio is a Blackfyre and Serra a (grand)daughter of Aerion, it would bring the bloodlines of Daemon and Daeron back together nicely. It's about the same as the theory that when Aegon (being fake) marries Dany, his rule is stronger because Dany's bloodline is known.

I agree that if Varys is related to the Targaryens (no matter how) it would add extra drama, and also a lot of motive. The only reason Varys could have without all the bloodline-stuff, is that Aerys was the first man to actually hire him, instead of him having to stay a thief, which wouldn't make a very good motive.

And since it's Varys we're talking about (you said that line before, I just had to repeat it :p )... Varys would most surely be capable of switching babies. My theory on that is that he bought a baby with the right features, and kept the child hidden (maybe a few birds were taking care of him). When Varys failed to convince Aerys to keep the gates closed and when Jaime failed to convince Aerys not to trust Tywin, and to just surrender, and resolve everything peacefully, I believe Varys went to Elia. Elia was a Martell. On her own, she wasn't worth anything but the loyalty of the Dornish. Rhaenys was a girl. She could have been married off to Robert (in a similar situation as Aegon III and the child-daughter of Aegon II), but Robert probably wouldn't have wanted to touch anything Rhaegar-related. So Rhaenys could have been married off to any son of Robert. She could have been used as a hostage, as leverage. The only real threat to Robert was Aegon, and Varys could have been capable of convincing Elia of switching her child with a fake child. If Varys and Elia had been the only ones who had known about it, no one else would have probably noticed. Gregor smashed the child's face in beyond recognition, and as Kevan once said, no one wanted to look for long.

So Aegon being realy Aegon is very well possible.

And with enough gold even the Golden Company could be convinced to become loyal to a Targaryen. Varys and Illyrio had many, many years to convince them, don't forget that.

I agree that wanting a perfect King and doing it all for the realm is a bit fluffy, but they could be meaning it. Placing the perfect king on the throne, to protect the people. We're doing it all for the realm, because having a Targaryen on the throne is the best way to go. And if many people should die for that to happen, well... the means justify the ends. I think they are thinking along those lines.

The game has many players, but Varys and LF are definitly the greatest players, and they surely play for a reason. They both want the power, but neither of them wants to actually sit on the throne (unlike all those others who play the game). And that makes them both so dangerous. And that's what makes them both so interesting to follow :)

[PrimeRhaegar]

There is also egg's third son who wasn't even named.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

There is also egg's third son who wasn't even named.

True, and Egg's first son, Duncan the Small, who was married. He could have had children. And since Duncan was the first born son of a king, he should have gotten the throne. Instead he choose love. Any children of him, if they have ambition, should have thought their father an idiot. Anyone of them could want to make a claim. Unfortunately it is unknown if Duncan and his bride had any children though.

[Veltigar]

I agree that they were both slaves. We know for certain that Egg shaved his head. But we don't know for certain if Varys does. He might actually be a eunuch, and eunuch's (when cut at an early age, before puberty sets in) are hairless. Illyrio does describe Serra to have Valyrian looks, agreed, but the whore that Jorah found in Volantes, for example, also had Valyrian features. There are many women (and men) with Valyrian features. Still, even if Varys had the Valyrian looks when he was a kid, we simply don't know if he's shaving it all. When you shave, at the end of the day, you'll see the stubble appearing already. Are you telling me that Varys shaves several times a day? And that he never misses an hair? It's possible I guess, but not very likely.

I believe that you are wrong about the exact ramifications of getting cut at an early age. Sure, Secondary sex characteristic like pubic hair, etc. would not develop but Eunuch do not automatically lose the hair on their scalp or their eyebrows. Of course Varys could have a very rare decease called Alopecia universalis but I don't think that is very likely (especially, since we already have a character in Styr that seems to have that).

So, he probably shaves his head. Now, some have argued that Varys does that to be able to disguise himself better. However, in AFFC we learned that their is a special kind of haircut for mummers which allows them to practice their profession. And yet, Varys shaves his scalp completely. There must be another reason and the only one that fits is that Varys wants to hide his Valyrian trades.

Maekar tells Dunk in The Hedge Knight that he has send Aerion to Lys for a few years. Aerion dies in 232 AL, about twenty years later. His son is born approximately a year before that. So I am assuming here that Aerion has already returned (for a long time) to Westeros. Remember, during the Spring Sickness, three Targaryens died. They lost four family members within a year, and their family got smaller because of that. It would only make sense to accept Aerion back into Westeros, since Aerys and Aelinor weren't going to have any children (Aerys shunning her bed wasn't going to change, it was his nature and everyone could see it), and Rhaegel was sickly. As many Targaryens as they could possibly gather were necessary in Westeros to keep their grip on the Iron throne. I don't think Aerion had remained in Lys for more than, let's say 5 or 6 years.

Yet, in tMK we have no mention of Aerion coming back. The great epidemic had already passed by then and they were in need for some additional Targaryens already. And we know that Aerion served with the Second Sons for quite a while. I believe the earliest he would be welcomed back to Westeros would be in 221 AL, when his father became King. But I wouldn't be surprised if his return was even later since Maekar first had to sort the troubles with BR out. We don't have a date yet, but I believe that the death of Daeron the Drunken might have caused Maekar to ask Aerion back (since Aerion died in 232 and Maekar in 233 Daeron death was most likely before Aerion's).

Anyways, back to the point I was making. Aerion spent a long, long time away from home (at least untill 221 AL imo), during that time Aerion would have had to live somewhere. We know he made his home in Lys, it isn't a stretch to assume that Aerion spent a lot of time there and even went back to Lys in later years visiting his home there and do his evil deeds away from the prying eyes of his dad. IIRC we don't even know where he killed himself (or do we?), he might very well have been in Lys then. And his woman (if he actually married than I think that chances are big that he married some Lyseeni since he spent a lot of time there and because they have more Valyrian blood than the lords of Westeros excepting Velarion and perhaps Celtigar and Bar Emmon) or mistress (more likely one of them fancy Lyseni prostitutes than a wife imo) and son would be there as well.

So if Aerion was in Westeros, his infant child would have been as well. I agree he might have been a treath to Egg or his children later in life, but the boy was an infant, and wouldn't have remembered his father. They could have used that, and told the child his father was another man. I just can't picture Egg leaving a child helpless like that, though he (and his council) would have wanted to keep an eye on the child. But isn't that easier to do if you keep the child close by you?

They could have tried that, but that would have failed, just like it didn't work with Daemon. If Aerion's son had been allowed to remain in Westeros than soon the child would have had his own Fireball and Bittersteel urging him to make a grab for the IT.

If they kept the child close and in contact with the Westerosi society nobles would have known him and the child itself would have made allies and become an easily recognizable rallying point for those opposing Egg. By banishing the child to Lys they went for the principle "out of sight, out of mind" (= meaning that something not nearby is forgotten). If none knew him he could not become a rallying point.

I agree, Maekar was young when he married, but that could be explained by Daemon being an only child for a very long time. Daemon wanted his line to be secured, and so he married his sons off at an early age, and they all (except for Aerys) had children, securing the line for a very long time (as stated in the Hedge Knight: Good King Daeron had four grown sons, three with sons of their own. The line of the dragonkings had almost died out during his father's day, but it was said that Daeron II and his sons had left is secure for all time).

Daemon marrying young, I'm guessing Daena had a hand in this. Daemon turned out to be capable of being influenced by his half-brother and friends, why wouldn't his mother be capable of it as well?

About Viserys II, that's actually easily explained. The Dance was over, and most Targaryens had died. Aegon III married the daughter of Aegon II, but the girl was only a couple of years old. She couldn't reproduce yet. And Viserys was almost of an age to get married. Aegon III faithfully stayed married to his Targaryen bride, but she died about eleven or twelve years later. It's very possible she had gotten pregnant too soon, and died due to complications.

So Aegon III knew his marriage wouldn't include children for a while. To continue his line, his brother Viserys II had to marry and reproduce as quickly as possible. So Viserys II marrying young and having children that were older that Aegon's are explained as such.

This is all good and well but the point still stands that there seems to be a habit amongst Targaryens for younger sibling to marry at an earlier age than their older siblings.

But Varys was born into slavery. Though it's a nice catch that Tyrion read a book about children being sold into slavery at young age on his way to Illyrio, since Illyrio and Varys are such good friends.

I was talking about Aerion's spouse/mistress and his son.

Why would the nobles be so desperate to find a Targaryen king that they would consider a Targaryen basterd, if there are still older Targaryens available? Aemon was available, even if he was a maester, and Egg was available as well., next would have come the daughters, Rhae and Daella. I believe that it is stated somewhere that first all the trueborn sons are in line for inheritance, next all the daughters, than all other available options (like far removed family, or bastards).

Hmm, desperate was perhaps not the right word. They would consider placing a young son (trueborn or not) of Aerion on the throne since that would mean that they could control him. Those that would become regent of the boy would hold enormous power (think LF plot to take over the Vale).

I never read anywhere that Varys first returned to Lys? He told Tyrion he was sold in Myr, when his mummer's group was holding a show there, and a strange man offered a very large sum of money for Varys. The man took Varys home and kicked him out of his house when he was done with him. The mummer's group had left already at this point. Varys then became the best thief in Myr, until a rival forced him to move to Pentos. From Pentos he went to Kings Landing. So when in all of this did he go to Lys again? Because I can't remember.

We don't know if he went to Lys, I phrased it badly. What I was trying to say is that in the sister scenario, many found it strange that Varys first picked up Illyrio, and only after some time had past they went to collect Serra (or sent someone else to pick up Serra).

I still can't really see that Varys and Serra are related. But it does sound better than the whole "Varys is a Blackfyre" theory. But indeed we will have to wait (unfortunately). Varys being a Brightflame would indeed explain why Varys is interested in who sits on the throne. I have always been wondering about that, and no matter how much I'm looking at Varys and his storyline, I'm still not entirely seeing the why. Your theory could be a possible explanation though. Though I'm still hoping, and thinking, that Aegon is real. It would still add more believability (is that a word?) to the story though, if Varys is somehow related.

I think you mean credibility.

And really you still believe that Faegon is real? The only theory with more evidence going for it than Faegon being fake is R+L=J.

If Illyrio is a Blackfyre and Serra a (grand)daughter of Aerion, it would bring the bloodlines of Daemon and Daeron back together nicely. It's about the same as the theory that when Aegon (being fake) marries Dany, his rule is stronger because Dany's bloodline is known.

I agree that if Varys is related to the Targaryens (no matter how) it would add extra drama, and also a lot of motive. The only reason Varys could have without all the bloodline-stuff, is that Aerys was the first man to actually hire him, instead of him having to stay a thief, which wouldn't make a very good motive.

I would even go as far as to say that it's a very lousy motive :)

And since it's Varys we're talking about (you said that line before, I just had to repeat it :P )... Varys would most surely be capable of switching babies. My theory on that is that he bought a baby with the right features, and kept the child hidden (maybe a few birds were taking care of him). When Varys failed to convince Aerys to keep the gates closed and when Jaime failed to convince Aerys not to trust Tywin, and to just surrender, and resolve everything peacefully, I believe Varys went to Elia. Elia was a Martell. On her own, she wasn't worth anything but the loyalty of the Dornish. Rhaenys was a girl. She could have been married off to Robert (in a similar situation as Aegon III and the child-daughter of Aegon II), but Robert probably wouldn't have wanted to touch anything Rhaegar-related. So Rhaenys could have been married off to any son of Robert. She could have been used as a hostage, as leverage. The only real threat to Robert was Aegon, and Varys could have been capable of convincing Elia of switching her child with a fake child. If Varys and Elia had been the only ones who had known about it, no one else would have probably noticed. Gregor smashed the child's face in beyond recognition, and as Kevan once said, no one wanted to look for long.

So Aegon being realy Aegon is very well possible.

Lol no. If Varys was able to work out the logistics to spirit a babe away he would have been able to do the same for the girl. Further more Elia would not allow for just one child to be spirited away, since Rhaenys still remains a threat (just like Dany was also a threat). But the biggest clue of all: Why on earth would Elia try and stop Gregor from killing a random boy while her own daughter was alone and scared in her dads room.

And with enough gold even the Golden Company could be convinced to become loyal to a Targaryen. Varys and Illyrio had many, many years to convince them, don't forget that.

No, par Illyrio " Some contracts are written in blood" they would never fight for a true Targaryen. The Targaryens have been their enemies for ages, almost all those who boast more than one generation of gold have lost familymembers against the Targs. The decendents of the nobles where banished from Westeros and lost everything that was important to their class because of the Targaryens. Only a Blackfyre can bring them across the sea.

I agree that wanting a perfect King and doing it all for the realm is a bit fluffy, but they could be meaning it. Placing the perfect king on the throne, to protect the people. We're doing it all for the realm, because having a Targaryen on the throne is the best way to go. And if many people should die for that to happen, well... the means justify the ends. I think they are thinking along those lines.

It's utter Bullshit that's what it is. This whole series shows us all these different shades of grey, especially in relation to the Game of thrones and then all of a sudden the biggest juxtaposition in the world of players (that between Varys and LF) would be one of good (Varys) vs. Bad (LF). It would ruin the story.

[PrimeRhaegar]

True, and Egg's first son, Duncan the Small, who was married. He could have had children. And since Duncan was the first born son of a king, he should have gotten the throne. Instead he choose love. Any children of him, if they have ambition, should have thought their father an idiot. Anyone of them could want to make a claim. Unfortunately it is unknown if Duncan and his bride had any children though.

true in this series love will always win out over duty 9 times out of 10

[James Arryn]

Quite the observation there. I guess my point is that the Targs are given way too much special attention for a House that only came to Westeros 300 years ago when there are 8000 year old Ruling families far more worthy of attention and respect.

Damn Targs...

None of this is real.

[Veltigar]

None of this is real.

Morpheus is that you? :p "I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it."

[Darth Visenya]

Quite the observation there. I guess my point is that the Targs are given way too much special attention for a House that only came to Westeros 300 years ago when there are 8000 year old Ruling families far more worthy of attention and respect.

Damn Targs...

Because their pretty,mad,blonde dragonriders not dour,honourable Northmen, lets be honest, in a work of fiction which would you rather read about?, actually, don't answer that.

[Veltigar]

Because their pretty,mad,blonde dragonriders not dour,honourable Northmen, lets be honest, in a work of fiction which would you rather read about?, actually, don't answer that.

Honestley, the way you present it I'd rather read about the Northmen :p

[Darth Visenya]

Honestley, the way you present it I'd rather read about the Northmen :P

Yeah, I admit it could have come out better :P.

[Ludd]

I think the killing of Rhaenys was quite unexpected. Girls were usually held hostage and married off to likely contenders. Rhaenys could have been marries to Stannis or Renley or even Robert

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I believe that you are wrong about the exact ramifications of getting cut at an early age. Sure, Secondary sex characteristic like pubic hair, etc. would not develop but Eunuch do not automatically lose the hair on their scalp or their eyebrows. Of course Varys could have a very rare decease called Alopecia universalis but I don't think that is very likely (especially, since we already have a character in Styr that seems to have that).

So, he probably shaves his head. Now, some have argued that Varys does that to be able to disguise himself better. However, in AFFC we learned that their is a special kind of haircut for mummers which allows them to practice their profession. And yet, Varys shaves his scalp completely. There must be another reason and the only one that fits is that Varys wants to hide his Valyrian trades.

Hmmm.. I always thought it was like that. But so far my internet research has found nothing. I agree that Varys having a disease isn't very likely (though I can't remember reading that Styr had the disease, I was under the impression he simply shaved his head as well). Perhaps I thought boy who got cut at an early age went bald because both Varys and Strong Belwas are bold, but I can remember the Unsullied as having hair.

I am still doubting that Varys is shaving his head, because I think it would be really difficult to conceal the stubble (though if he really has Valyrian features, the hair would be light and more difficult to detect).

Yet, in tMK we have no mention of Aerion coming back. The great epidemic had already passed by then and they were in need for some additional Targaryens already. And we know that Aerion served with the Second Sons for quite a while. I believe the earliest he would be welcomed back to Westeros would be in 221 AL, when his father became King. But I wouldn't be surprised if his return was even later since Maekar first had to sort the troubles with BR out. We don't have a date yet, but I believe that the death of Daeron the Drunken might have caused Maekar to ask Aerion back (since Aerion died in 232 and Maekar in 233 Daeron death was most likely before Aerion's).

Anyways, back to the point I was making. Aerion spent a long, long time away from home (at least untill 221 AL imo), during that time Aerion would have had to live somewhere. We know he made his home in Lys, it isn't a stretch to assume that Aerion spent a lot of time there and even went back to Lys in later years visiting his home there and do his evil deeds away from the prying eyes of his dad. IIRC we don't even know where he killed himself (or do we?), he might very well have been in Lys then. And his woman (if he actually married than I think that chances are big that he married some Lyseeni since he spent a lot of time there and because they have more Valyrian blood than the lords of Westeros excepting Velarion and perhaps Celtigar and Bar Emmon) or mistress (more likely one of them fancy Lyseni prostitutes than a wife imo) and son would be there as well.

The Mystery Knight takes place three years after the Hedge Knight. So perhaps not enough time has passed for Maekar to consider Aerion punished enough?

In a SSM, GRRM said the following: Lastly, well, Aerion Brightfire did not stay in Lys all his life, only a few years. He may have fathered a few bastards there, which would mean Dany has "relatives" of a sort in Lys... but they would be very distant relatives, from the wrong side of the blanket.

So I don't think he would be away from Westeros until Maekar came into his throne. Also, the way GRRM talks about potential bastards of Aerion and the fact that they would be very distant relatives, has me convinced at least no bastards from Aerion will come into play.

Plus, if Aerion only stayed in Lys a few years... he doesn't seem like the marrying type to me, at least not willingly. If his father or his king ordered it of him, but not in Lys, especially not if he joined a sellsword company during those times.

They could have tried that, but that would have failed, just like it didn't work with Daemon. If Aerion's son had been allowed to remain in Westeros than soon the child would have had his own Fireball and Bittersteel urging him to make a grab for the IT.

If they kept the child close and in contact with the Westerosi society nobles would have known him and the child itself would have made allies and become an easily recognizable rallying point for those opposing Egg. By banishing the child to Lys they went for the principle "out of sight, out of mind" (= meaning that something not nearby is forgotten). If none knew him he could not become a rallying point.

Ok, good point

This is all good and well but the point still stands that there seems to be a habit amongst Targaryens for younger sibling to marry at an earlier age than their older siblings.

So the children that practically wouldn't inherit anything would marry sooner in your opinion, than the heir of the family? The marriage of the heir is the most important, since he will continue the fathers line.

I was talking about Aerion's spouse/mistress and his son.

Ok, then I misunderstood that part.

Hmm, desperate was perhaps not the right word. They would consider placing a young son (trueborn or not) of Aerion on the throne since that would mean that they could control him. Those that would become regent of the boy would hold enormous power (think LF plot to take over the Vale).

Hmm, Maekar had just died in the fighting, so seating an infant on the throne would have inspired some rebellious thoughts with the high lords, and perhaps also the small folk. In troubling times, people want to be able to look at their king for help. If they see a babe on the lap of his wetnurse, well, it doesn't give them much courage. Though seating a child on the throne would indeed give a lot of power to the regents indeed (look at Tommens reign, for example)

We don't know if he went to Lys, I phrased it badly. What I was trying to say is that in the sister scenario, many found it strange that Varys first picked up Illyrio, and only after some time had past they went to collect Serra (or sent someone else to pick up Serra).

And really you still believe that Faegon is real? The only theory with more evidence going for it than Faegon being fake is R+L=J.

Ok, I was confused for a moment there about your statement indeed. Even though "Varys knows all", finding a sister you can't remember must have been difficult at the very least. So I still find this part of the theory very weak.

And yes, I believe Aegon could be real. There are various reasons. I'll tell them in short here, since there are many, many threads about this.

1. Varys' conversation with Kevan. This is a POV from Kevan's point of view, so when Kevan says "Aegon? He's dead." Varys knows that Kevan is referring to Rhaegar's son. And he answers him with "No. He's here." Also note that Varys' voice becomes deeper here, the same as it does when he is speaking of his castration to Tyrion. I believe these are moments where Varys' emotions surface, hence the voice change.

2. The baby swap could be very real. I'll explain that later on. But to add to that already: Aegon was known to have Valyrian features. Even if this boy is Serra's son, he could have inherited Illyrio's features. He could have looked completely different. There was no way that they would have known before the birth that the boy would have the right features. Also, they couldn't have known what Gregor would do exactly to the child he found with Elia.

Lol no. If Varys was able to work out the logistics to spirit a babe away he would have been able to do the same for the girl. Further more Elia would not allow for just one child to be spirited away, since Rhaenys still remains a threat (just like Dany was also a threat). But the biggest clue of all: Why on earth would Elia try and stop Gregor from killing a random boy while her own daughter was alone and scared in her dads room.

Rhaenys was three or four years old. Even Tywin knew her, he would recognize her within a second. There was no way Varys could have found a replacement for her that wouldn't have been discovered within minutes of Tywins arrivel. Rhaenys would have been better as a hostage, to keep the Dornish loyal. That's what usually happened to girls, and women, in those times.

If Elia was convinced that only her son was in true danger, she would have allowed one child to be taken into safety, whilst the other one stayed with her. And why would Elia try and stop Gregor from killing a random boy? Because that boy's life meant her son could be returned to her. If the stand-in died, sure, her son would be alive, but she could never safely acknowledge him openly. She would have to hide him until there were armies strong enough to fight for his rights. If the stand-in died, Elia never be able to openly proclaim "my son is alive, he's right here next to me" since Dornish armies were already weakened so, and Dorne didn't have a big army to begin with. If the stand-in died, Aegon would go from a Prince-status, to a bastard-status. For highborns, this is very troublesome

No, par Illyrio " Some contracts are written in blood" they would never fight for a true Targaryen. The Targaryens have been their enemies for ages, almost all those who boast more than one generation of gold have lost familymembers against the Targs. The decendents of the nobles where banished from Westeros and lost everything that was important to their class because of the Targaryens. Only a Blackfyre can bring them across the sea.

Some contracts are written in blood. Blackfyre blood is the same as Targaryen blood in a certain way. Daemon's parents both were Targaryens, remember. He was a Targ on both sides. Putting a different name on it, doesn't change the origins. And all the Blackfyre's are gone. There might be some in the female line, but soldiers (especially Westerosi) don't folllow women. Dany had a lot of trouble gaining respect from most people, and that worked only because she had dragons. A female Blackfyre wouldn't have that advantage.

So Aegon here is the only one they can turn to. He'll do what Daemon and Bittersteel couldn't, he'll help take them home, and give them back their lands, which they had lost due to their exile.

It's utter Bullshit that's what it is. This whole series shows us all these different shades of grey, especially in relation to the Game of thrones and then all of a sudden the biggest juxtaposition in the world of players (that between Varys and LF) would be one of good (Varys) vs. Bad (LF). It would ruin the story.

I agreed with you on this part already :)

[Ghost's Shadow]

Morpheus is that you? :P "I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it."

Watched those 3 last week. Had the DVDs for ages, but never watched them.

Anyway, I don't think Varys is pro-Targ, as it was said he was feeding Aerys II's madness? And there's him turning him against his own promising crown prince son.

[WeaselPie]

Because no one started a thread called "The Unknown Starks"

Unknown Stark women*

OP, I think these unknown Targs (and unknown Stark women) will be woven into the story. Most may never be mentioned, but they are such a glaring hole, I tend to think GRRM is saving some of them for something (much like Howland Reed).

[BranBrokeLegs]

Its probably too daunting of a task to track down all the lost Targaryens. Best to focus on the children of Aegon V as the Great Council settled the throne on him and his descendants. So if we start here that leaves us with:

1) Any descendants of Duncan the Small. Presumably they died at Summerhall.

2) Any additional children that Jaehaerys II had other than Aerys and Rhaella.

3) The third son of Aegon V and the children that he might have had.

4) And additional children that Rhaelle Baratheon (nee' Targaryen) had other than Steffon.

[sertravisredbeard]

I think one theory that might explain the extreme lack of these "unknown Targaryens" is Lady Dustin's description of maesters as "grey rats". She tells Theon about how the maesters aren't as impartial as they seem. Marywn tells Sam that the Citadel has had an agenda for a long time. After the last actual dragons died, some maesters may have attempted to get rid of Targaryens by simply giving horrible advice over and over. The eventual demise of various Targaryens through war, disease, looniness, and random acts of the gods could have coincided with some of their advisers actively working against them for years.

[sertravisredbeard]

Am I the only person that thinks that Egg could totally have tried to set aside Aerion Brightflame's infant son? Aerion was a jerk to Egg. I liked Egg in the D&E stories, but somewhere in the time gap he changes. Most of his family is killed in some kind of dragonspawning fireworks disaster that he believe would work, or he let happen. He apparently got some weird thoughts in his head later in life. I wouldn't be surprised if he allowed his brother's son to fall off the face of the earth and end up in slavery somehow.