Newstar Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Again, you're not proving that he meant to rape her, and quoting that paragraph does not prove it. You haven't provided a single piece of evidence that he meant to rape her, and instead you keep saying "well, there is no absolute evidence that he didn't mean to rape her". Which is a pretty weird "guilty until proven innocent" assumption. The only proof we would have is inside Sandor's mind (and GRRM's, I suppose), and so we don't have proof, per se, as in a POV. We do have extremely strong evidence, however. What we do have is his admission, after he says that he took the song, that he meant to take her, too. Not that he meant to kill her, since that doesn't come up until he's talking about what he should have done (so it's important not to confuse the issue) but that he meant to take her. The only sense of "take" that makes sense in that passage is "rape," as I've been saying. He confesses other things about Sansa in that passage: he stood by and watched them beat her (true, verifiable in Sansa's POV), he took the song and she never gave it (also true, verifiable in Sansa's POV). He doesn't embellish about watching them beat Sansa, by saying that he beat her himself. He doesn't embellish about taking the song and her not giving it by throwing in some bit about hurting her while he did it. Both of these statements are true. Why then assume that his statement about meaning to rape her is an embellishment meant to provoke Arya, when these other two confessions about what he did vis-a-vis Sansa were not? Why then assume that this statement about intending to rape her is a lie when he didn't lie about taking the song or about standing by while he watched Sansa being beaten? Why disbelieve his confession that he meant to rape her as well, when his other confessions about Sansa we know are truthful? The bit about screwing her bloody is not a confession about what he did in relation to Sansa in the way of his standing by/taking the song are. One can and should treat them differently. Look at it the passage carefully: "I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her [true confession, not an exaggeration or a lie]. I took the bloody song, she never gave it [true confession, not an exaggeration or a lie]. I meant to take her, too [logically, true confession, not an exaggeration or a lie]." Then the bit about what he should have done follows, about what he should have done, not what he actually did and intended to do (his sins). Not only should he have raped her (as he meant to), but he should have ripped out her heart for good measure. Also, for the "take" = "take her from King's Landing," interpretation to which some are so desperately clinging, if you look at the passage, the Hound is confessing things which shame him. He's ashamed that he stood by while Sansa was beaten. He's ashamed that he took the song from her by force. Why would meaning to rescue or save Sansa shame him? It wouldn't shame him. What would shame him, just as much as standing by while Sansa is abused and just as much as forcing Sansa to sing for him, would be intending to rape her. Thus, he confesses it with his other Sansa-related sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 What is interesting is the fact that if either Sandor or Theon had actually killed a Stark child, neither would be forgiven ever..a la the Freys. The fact that they pointedly did not kill a Stark child, gives them, thematically and via the fandom, a nudge towards their redemption arc. ETA if Sandor had found Arya when chasing Mycah and Arya, I'm sure he would have killed Arya too. If Theon had actually found Bran and Rickon, I'm sure their actual bodies would have hung from the gates. Yeah this pretty much. People have no problem blaming the Freys for "following orders" at the red wedding, but when the victims don't involve Starks they are much more lenient. As for Sandor, he also "followed orders", enjoyed "following those orders" and then gets forgiven because he's nice to the Stark girls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FNF Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 I will not engage any further in this discussion which is 1) completely Off-Topic and 2) much too complex to discuss on a forum about a fantasy book. Whatever you say Hasselhoff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 This is actually my second major point: the hypocrisy of the fandom.I fully believe that GRRM wanted to create that kind of Cognitive Dissonance among the readers when he created the Hound. And I think that's true with a LOT of the accepted theories. Sandor is basically saying "Look, I know you all expected me to be this creepy rapist bloodthirsty killer when it came to Sansa, but I wasn't. Shockingly, I really did want to get her out of there. And I didn't harm Arya. So what are you gonna think of me now? Tough isn't it? Am I dead? Maybe, maybe not.... " (insert more theories here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Yes, like the mutual, loving feelings beheld when he assaulted her and threatened her life at knifepoint. Or the mutual, loving feelings flowing when he threatened to kill her (twice). Or the moment of pure human connection when he put a naked blade to her neck. Or his admission of his pure, loving feeling that he had meant to rape her. Ah, romance! Littlefinger is behaving like the classic sexual predator, what we imagine when we think of "child molester." Sandor behaves like the classic abusive boyfriend: verbal threats, insults, deliberate intimidation, use of a weapon, assault, harassment, etc. etc. They are different forms of vileness, but one's no better than the other. Eh, no. I think you may be confusing him with Joffrey. :) Except for the night of Blackwater where he really went nuts and behaved deplorably in putting the knife at her throat, Sandor was behaving like that guy you meet every day at school/work/in the neighborhood who's always helping you and doing things for you but at the same time insulting you, verbally berating you and making empty threats, because he has no idea how to interact with people, especially not girls, or how to express affection. But you're perfectly aware that it's just lots of barking and snarling without biting. "Abusive boyfriend" relationship is one where the guy has all the power in the relationship over the woman... which was not the case at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Yeah this pretty much. People have no problem blaming the Freys for "following orders" at the red wedding, but when the victims don't involve Starks they are much more lenient. As for Sandor, he also "followed orders", enjoyed "following those orders" and then gets forgiven because he's nice to the Stark girls. The Freys were not following orders. The Freys were angry and felt insulted by Robb, decided to ally with Tywin Lannister and planned the Red Wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 [MOD] Thread locked for moderation. It may or may note be reopened. [/MOD] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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