Theon killing kids bad? Sandor doing it forgivable?

[Tetrarch42]

Both of them are child murderers. PERIOD. But, the stories are different:

1. While Sandor was man ordered to do it, a man without a choice, Theon ordered the deaths of those boys. He wasn't doing it because he was ordered, he has done that for his own cause.

2. Sandor has done something commendable since that crime. He saved Sansa in KL many time, even offered to take her with him to Winterfell, then saved Arya during RW, and even helped her after it. Theon on the other hand, was someone who betrayed Robb, imprisoned children, and later killed 2 innocent boys. Yes, he paid it beyond merit, and was broken unjustly by Ramsay... His redemption started with Jeyne, Sandor redeemed himself many times.

So, while killing children is truly horrendous crime, we should also remember the good they have done...

We always have a choice. If Sandor refused he would have been stripped of his title, or perhaps even been executed. But an innocent child would have lived.

I agree that there was a mitigating circumstances at play for Sandor, and aggravating circumstances for Theon - but we're discussing the murder of children so mitigating circumstances are rather inconsequential.

[Annara Snow]

Even if he believed Joffrey, that doesn't mean him laughing about cutting Mycah in half is justified or acceptable.

Furthermore, the "good" deeds that you have listed don't really amount to much at all. All he has done is protect two Stark children, whilst committing (probably) a hell lot more bad stuff before that.

And also he regrets not raping Sansa - I don't see how that shows he's a good person?

Why do people keep misquoting and misrepresenting that line? He does not regret for not raping Sansa. Or for not ripping her heart out. He regrets not protecting her enough (letting Joffrey and his knights beat her) and leaving her to the Lannisters, to have her forcibly married to Tyrion - and as far as Sandor knew, it meant that Tyrion had been raping her every night and subjecting her to who knows what (Tyrion has a terrible reputation - remember the story that LF tells Sansa, that Tyrion was the one who gave his first wife to his guards when he got tired of her? No doubt he's told that story to others as well) before she ran away.

I think that should be obvious from the actual line, which is not the misquoted "I should have fucked her bloody" but "I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her to that dwarf." In other words, "Leaving her to Tyrion is the worst thing I could have done - it would have been better if I had [insert most awful things he could have done to her] rather than leaving her to Tyrion to rape her every night" (and possibly give her to his guards to rape her as well - if Sandor has heard the LF version of the story about Tysha).

Sandor is a man who uses coarse, violent language, and he was feverish and on the brink of death and asking Arya to finish him off and being over-dramatic ("ripping her heart out" - do you really take that literally? Do you really think he thought "man, I should really rape her and rip her heart out now, but first I'll ask her to come with me and promise to protect her..."), but the meaning is clear - he regrets his failures, that he didn't protect her well enough and wasn't able to be the knight he wanted to be, even though he normally wouldn't admit it ("I stood there in my white cloak and I let them beat her") and forced her to sing him a song (show him appreciation/love) rather than getting it from her willingly - and worst of all, that he left her to her fate.

As for laughing about Mycah - would it have been better if he had been solemn about it, would it make it less of a murder? I also thought he was a horrible person when I first read that chapter, but later on we see that Sandor laughing cynically and saying nasty and nihilistic things is an attitude/defense mechanism he employs when dealing with the world. Does it really make him worse than a bunch of other people who also commit murders, but don't laugh about it or don't say cynical things, but claim to be justified?

[Mladen]

We always have a choice. If Sandor refused he would have been stripped of his title, or perhaps even been executed. But an innocent child would have lived.

I agree that there was a mitigating circumstances at play for Sandor, and aggravating circumstances for Theon - but we're discussing the murder of children so mitigating circumstances are rather inconsequential.

What titles? As I recall, in AGOT, Sandor had no titles. I agree, he could have done something different. He didn't. But, as I said, he also did some good stuff, that;s all, plus there is a great difference between two cases.

[Arakan]

Quoting yourself? :) Have we come to that? Bump that thread and we might revisit it again. It would be so sad that we forget that In Memoriam... ;)

Nah, just didnt want to rewrite what i already wrote 8 months ago ;). Furthermore i thought it is useful to include some text quote as well ;)

[The Wolves]

I hate them both. The Hound is gross for killing a child on orders from a psychotic, sadistic piece of shit(Joffery)He laughs too when he killed him he's a monster. Theon is also a child murderer so therefore I hate him.

[chrisdaw]

He said it during the trial in Beric's cave "Who am I to question Prince's word?"

This does not at all prove he was ordered to kill Mycah.

[Newstar]

As for his good deeds, helping unprotected girls is not a good deed?

One of those girls he had kidnapped to ransom, lest we forget, and the other girl he threatened at knifepoint and came thisclose to raping, so I think Cloud's point that whatever his good deeds were, they weren't much of anything, and they weren't a drop in the bucket compared to his bad deeds, which included not only killing Mycah (and laughing about it) but also killing other children.

I think that should be obvious from the actual line, which is not the misquoted "I should have fucked her bloody" but "I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her to that dwarf."

Let's look at the whole quote:

"I meant to take her, too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her to that dwarf."

At the very least, he's admitting that he meant to rape her. It also looks like he thinks that he should have, suggesting he regrets it. Whether he only regrets it because he thinks it would be a kinder fate than leaving her to Tyrion, or whether he also regrets it because he missed his shot, is unclear.

[Tetrarch42]

What titles? As I recall, in AGOT, Sandor had no titles. I agree, he could have done something different. He didn't. But, as I said, he also did some good stuff, that;s all, plus there is a great difference between two cases.

His title was "The Hound", unofficial yes, but technically he was the Prince's personal bodyguard.

In any case the use of the term "titles" might just be semantics. He'd be stripped of his status, position, prestige, etc.

I'm not convinced there is a great difference, they both killed children for their own benefit. How much of a difference could there be? That's like saying the shit I took this morning was better than the shit I took yesterday.

[WeaselPie]

Sandor's redemption arc, so far, is much more traveled than Theon's, although we don't quite know the outcome of either. Can't give a character a redemption arc without them having done horrible things, now can we? And it doesn't mean their redemption is permanent, either.

The Hound clearly relished killing Mycah. Theon clearly relished the display of dead child-bodies. Both had different motivations. Neither turned out for them as planned.

[James Arryn]

Here's how the Nuremburg Laws work: they apply to you if your side loses the war.

So, tbd.

[Annara Snow]

One of those girls he had kidnapped to ransom, lest we forget, and the other girl he threatened at knifepoint and came thisclose to raping, so I think Cloud's point that whatever his good deeds were, they weren't much of anything, and they weren't a drop in the bucket compared to his bad deeds, which included not only killing Mycah (and laughing about it) but also killing other children.

What evidence do you have that he "came this close to raping" Sansa?

[Newstar]

What evidence do you have that he "came this close to raping" Sansa?

"I meant to take her, too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody..."

Suggests that the sense of "take" here means "rape," or else the passage doesn't make any sense, and the bit about screwing her bloody is a non sequitur.

"I meant to [rape] her, too. I should have [raped her]. I should have [raped] her bloody..."

Not to mention "I'll have a song from you, whether you will it or no" is an implied rape threat, although mercifully it flew over Sansa's head at the time.

[Drexyon7]

The orders excuse is pretty ridiculous.

1. Blackwater showed that if he didn't want to do something the Hound wasn't going to be ordered to do something.

2. Was anyone going to inspect his work later? Like if he just said "nope couldn't find him" what happens then? Rational good people think of other options before you know...child murder.

3. Was he ordered to berate the dead kid? Was he ordered to enjoy killing Mycah? Nope, he's almost as bad as his brother.

[ache]

We always have a choice. If Sandor refused he would have been stripped of his title, or perhaps even been executed. But an innocent child would have lived.

I agree that there was a mitigating circumstances at play for Sandor, and aggravating circumstances for Theon - but we're discussing the murder of children so mitigating circumstances are rather inconsequential.

What if the Hound hadn't killed Mycah? The Lannisters were going to cut off Arya's hand and she was a 9yr old highborn girl. What do you think would have happened to Mycah, a 13yr old common boy? He wouldn't have lived if the Hound refused to kill him, it's much more likely he would have died a more horrible,

lingering death. When Cersei found out the Hound and Ser Boros put Jeyne Poole in Sansa's room instead of killing her alongside the rest of the Stark household, she immediately handed 11yr old Jeyne over to Littlefinger, known brothel owner. And poor Jeyne was not even accused of any crime. Knowing what the Lannisters are capable of, I know I'd rather quick death by Hound than being handed over to that lot.

[Cloud]

As for laughing about Mycah - would it have been better if he had been solemn about it, would it make it less of a murder? I also thought he was a horrible person when I first read that chapter, but later on we see that Sandor laughing cynically and saying nasty and nihilistic things is an attitude/defense mechanism he employs when dealing with the world. Does it really make him worse than a bunch of other people who also commit murders, but don't laugh about it or don't say cynical things, but claim to be justified?

Him laughing or not at the murder doesn't excuse what he did, but people here are vehemently insisting that "he was ordered to murder Mycah".

There's a difference between being ordered, and carrying the order out like you're enjoying what you're doing (what the hound did), and being ordered but carrying out the orders with heavy heart/regret and truly showing that there's no choice in the matter.

It doesn't make a difference in the murder, but it does make a difference in how we view his character.

I would find him more forgiveable if he showed that he didn't really want to kill the kid, but had to do it anyways for Cersei/Joff. Instead, he laughs and boasts about it to Ned, which plainly shows he didn't care a bit whether he was ordered or not but actually enjoyed the murder.

ETA: I saw your previous post.

But, you know what? It's possible to like a character and see some good in them without thinking that they're 100% perfect and blameless angels. "Bad" and "forgivable" are not mutually exclusive. In fact, if someone hasn't don anything bad, then there wouldn't be anything to forgive.

Yeah I agree completely, except we aren't discussing whether the hound is a good character or not. The problem is that people here think it's OK to murder a kid because he was ordered to do so. Nobody is arguing whether the hound is a good or bad character (in fact, I think he's a great character and I don't mind at all when people like it).

[Arakan]

I hate them both. The Hound is gross for killing a child on orders from a psychotic, sadistic piece of shit(Joffery)He laughs too when he killed him he's a monster. Theon is also a child murderer so therefore I hate him.

Short and incisive :).

nothing more to add.

I just want to add one thing, i will be very direct (risking punishment)

Everyone who uses the "he just followed orders" excuse for Sandor, especially after reading the respective passage in AGOT, is not only whitewashing but shows an undedeveloped intellect (i dont like the word retarded).

It's still too early to fulfill Godwin's Law...

[Newstar]

What if the Hound hadn't killed Mycah? The Lannisters were going to cut off Arya's hand and she was a 9yr old highborn girl. What do you think would have happened to Mycah, a 13yr old common boy? He wouldn't have lived if the Hound refused to kill him, it's much more likely he would have died a more horrible,

lingering death. When Cersei found out the Hound and Ser Boros put Jeyne Poole in Sansa's room instead of killing her alongside the rest of the Stark household, she immediately handed 11yr old Jeyne over to Littlefinger, known brothel owner. And poor Jeyne was not even accused of any crime. Knowing what the Lannisters are capable of, I know I'd rather quick death by Hound than being handed over to that lot.

Ah, so the Hound was doing Mycah a favour by riding him down, since his death would otherwise have surely been more horrible. Good to know. :D What a kindhearted fellow.

[Tetrarch42]

What if the Hound hadn't killed Mycah? The Lannisters were going to cut off Arya's hand and she was a 9yr old highborn girl. What do you think would have happened to Mycah, a 13yr old common boy? He wouldn't have lived if the Hound refused to kill him, it's much more likely he would have died a more horrible,

lingering death. When Cersei found out the Hound and Ser Boros put Jeyne Poole in Sansa's room instead of killing her alongside the rest of the Stark household, she immediately handed 11yr old Jeyne over to Littlefinger, known brothel owner. And poor Jeyne was not even accused of any crime. Knowing what the Lannisters are capable of, I know I'd rather quick death by Hound than being handed over to that lot.

Can you provide any textual evidence that the Hound was attempting to spare Mycah a worse fate? Or is this just hopeful speculation?

Given the fact that he laughed about killing the boy your conclusion seems nonsensical.

[Mladen]

This does not at all prove he was ordered to kill Mycah.

OH, the fact Cersei begged Jaime to kill Arya isn't pointer that she was looking to kill the witnesses of those events. If Sandor was told to capture the boy, he would have done so. Because he was obedient dog... They didn't call him Hound for nothing

His title was "The Hound", unofficial yes, but technically he was the Prince's personal bodyguard.

In any case the use of the term "titles" might just be semantics. He'd be stripped of his status, position, prestige, etc.

I'm not convinced there is a great difference, they both killed children for their own benefit. How much of a difference could there be? That's like saying the shit I took this morning was better than the shit I took yesterday.

Hound is a nickname. Lord, knight are titles... Great difference, zero semantics. He had no status, position. And talking about his prestige :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Sandor didn't kill Mycah for his own benefit. He did it because he was ordered to. Not that it justifies him, but he was ordered to.

[chrisdaw]

Considering the Hound himself defended his actions but never said he was ordered to kill Mycah it seems a rather large assumption many people are making when saying he was.