Theon killing kids bad? Sandor doing it forgivable?

[Annara Snow]

One of those girls he had kidnapped to ransom, lest we forget, and the other girl he threatened at knifepoint and came thisclose to raping, so I think Cloud's point that whatever his good deeds were, they weren't much of anything, and they weren't a drop in the bucket compared to his bad deeds, which included not only killing Mycah (and laughing about it) but also killing other children.

Let's look at the whole quote:

"I meant to take her, too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her to that dwarf."

No, I don't think he is admitting he meant to rape her. It's far more likely that he meant that he wanted to take her with him out of King's Landing... especially since that's what he actually proposed to do when he came to her room. How exactly do you think he planned that - "I'm going to go and rape her, but first I'll ask her to come with me"? Why would he do that? And what rapist stops and gets upset because his intended victim doesn't want to look him in the face? Imagine Gregor getting upset "Oh, no, princess Elia thinks I'm ugly and scary, now I can't rape her, boo hoo"... Why ask her to sing him a song? None of it makes any sense under the assumption he wanted to rape her. If he had wanted to rape her, he would have.

It also looks like he thinks that he should have, suggesting he regrets it. Whether he only regrets it because he thinks it would be a kinder fate than leaving her to Tyrion, or whether he also regrets it because he missed his shot, is unclear.

So why are only applying it to "fucked her bloody"? By the same logic, you must believe he thinks he should have ripped her heart out. Do you think he came this close to ripping her heart out, and that he regrets he missed his shot at murdering her by ripping her heart out?

[ache]

Can you provide any textual evidence that the Hound was attempting to spare Mycah a worse fate? Or is this just hopeful speculation?

Given the fact that he laughed about killing the boy your conclusion seems nonsensical.

Ah, so the Hound was doing Mycah a favour by riding him down, since his death would otherwise have surely been more horrible. Good to know. :D What a kindhearted fellow.

I quoted a post that said if the Hound had refused to kill Mycah an innocent child would have lived. In my opinion, there is no way in hell that boy was going to live, so the Hound refusing to kill him would not have saved him at all.

[Newstar]

No, I don't think he is admitting he meant to rape her. It's far more likely that he meant that he wanted to take her with him out of King's Landing...

You're misreading the passage. Let's try it with my reading:

"I meant to [rape] her, too. I should have [raped her]. I should have [raped] her bloody..."

Let's try it with yours:

"I meant to take [her with me], too. I should have [taken her with me]. I should have fucked her bloody before leaving her..."

My reading makes sense. It flows logically: I meant to rape her, I should have, I should have raped her bloody. Yours does not make sense: I meant to take her with me, I should have taken her with me, I should have fucked her bloody before leaving her for Tyrion (???). Utterly nonsensical.

And what rapist stops and gets upset because his intended victim doesn't want to look him in the face?

Lots of different kinds of rapists and would-be rapists, and lots of rapists and would-be rapists don't fit the Gregor sadistic rapist mould; most of them don't. They don't make them in a vat somewhere.

Why ask her to sing him a song? None of it makes any sense under the assumption he wanted to rape her. If he had wanted to rape her, he would have.

We don't have the benefit of his POV, so we don't know his reasons. What we do have is his statement that he meant to rape her, which, given him shoving her down on a bed at knifepoint, and given his implied rape threat to her ("I'll have a song from you, whether you will it or no"), and his comments on her attractiveness and breasts, is plain enough, even if it's not exactly clear when in that episode he formed the intention to rape her (probably when he shoved her down on the bed), and when precisely he changed his mind (probably when she sang for him and cupped his cheek). Even if she doesn't seem to have consciously grasped it at the time, Sansa seems to have later intuited that he meant to rape her, from her false memory of his "cruel" kiss and her dream of him telling her "I'll have a song from you" with the Hound in her bed mingled with a terrified dream of Tyrion readying to rape her.

[Arakan]

Ah, so the Hound was doing Mycah a favour by riding him down, since his death would otherwise have surely been more horrible. Good to know. :D What a kindhearted fellow.

Ah Newstar you have to know that some users here on these Boards suffer under such heavy Cognitive Dissonance when it comes to their respective darlings that one has to fear their heads will explode while sitting in front of their computers :)

[Datepalm]

"I meant to take her, too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her to that dwarf."

At the very least, he's admitting that he meant to rape her. It also looks like he thinks that he should have, suggesting he regrets it. Whether he only regrets it because he thinks it would be a kinder fate than leaving her to Tyrion, or whether he also regrets it because he missed his shot, is unclear.

I'm not a huge Sandor fan, and I don't forgive him Mycah in the slightest, but I also can't quite take this line as-spoken. To my mind, he's basically verbally flagellating himself here, trying to make himself - to himself, as much as anyone - seem as bad as he can be. He certainly did lust after Sansa, but he didn't act on it. Now he's taking that and turning it into "I would have raped her. That's the kind of man I am, isn't it?"

That said, laughing about Mycah is on a completely different level, because there he did commit the act. He had other options - the most obvious of which was to bring him back alive and let the chips fall. That was certainly less his responsibility than brutally riding him down.

Oddly (or not) I find Theon more sympathetic, or at least more pitiable, though I certainly think the killing of the Miller's Boys is every bit as morally reprehensible. I think it's that Sandor's damage seems to come from a truly awful life (which isn't an excuse), while Theon has really had a fairly priveleged upbringing, all told. His particular flaws are more a product of his own inherent weaknesses. He's a screwup, plain and simple, and he would have been a screwup who's ambitions outstrip his talents no matter what. That's just more interesting to me, whereas Sandor's dramatic tale-of-woe has a more polished, fictionalized feel.

[Sansa_Stark]

People generally apologize for Sandor for some weird reason even though he's a scumbag childkilling pervert.

Its why Littlefinger is hated so much for looking at Sansa, while SanSan is possibly the most popular ship(I know little of these things so forgive me if I'm wrong),

Generally the character is extremely angsty and a "tortured soul" so the fandom will look past his scumbaggery(laughing at killing Mycah).

[Tetrarch42]

OH, the fact Cersei begged Jaime to kill Arya isn't pointer that she was looking to kill the witnesses of those events. If Sandor was told to capture the boy, he would have done so. Because he was obedient dog... They didn't call him Hound for nothing

Hound is a nickname. Lord, knight are titles... Great difference, zero semantics. He had no status, position. And talking about his prestige :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Sandor didn't kill Mycah for his own benefit. He did it because he was ordered to. Not that it justifies him, but he was ordered to.

Sandor did it to keep his job, and because apparently he finds murdering children to be enjoyable. That's a benefit.

He's the younger brother of a second generation landed knight. He's essentially a commoner if not for being attached to the Lannisters (mostly Joffrey). So yes, his position involves "Widely recognized prominence, distinction, or importance" http://www.thefreedictionary.com/prestige. :lmao::lmao::lmao:

[Tetrarch42]

I quoted a post that said if the Hound had refused to kill Mycah an innocent child would have lived. In my opinion, there is no way in hell that boy was going to live, so the Hound refusing to kill him would not have saved him at all.

Sure, Mycah probably would have died regardless of whether Sandor killed him or no. That doesn't excuse his actions in killing Mycah in the slightest.

[FNF]

Mycah technically committed a crime worthy of being killed and Sandor was ordered to carry it out.

On the other hand, the kids were innocent.

It's as simple as that.

[Alhazred]

It really does strike me as strange how easy it is, especially with the TV show, to forget that Sandor killed Mika the Butchers Boy. I got the feeling in both the show and the book that Aryas feelings on this were being made out as unreasonable or out of proportion; ie that he should die for this crime even though he is helping her. Which he is unrepentant about and mocks Arya about feeling this way. I know that Theon killing the kids is brought up more often and he chose to do this unlike Sandor who was under orders. However I think there is still a degree to which Theon is just a weasily and weak character; as opposed to the Hound who is a fan favorite badass. I admit I like the hound because he is a badass who helps out Sansa. But I sometimes feel its strange to consider him so differently to Theon even though they're both child murderers. In fact, in a way that makes Sandor little better than Gregor who also killed children because he was ordered by Tywin.

I cannot comment on the show. And I am not sure what out-of-proportion things you are reacting too.

Both are child murderers. If either were sentenced to death, neither would have legitimate cause for complaint. Neither (in my book) has any right to kill themselves.

Sandor confessed his crimes to Arya on the hillside. He asked for mercy (a quick death). He was denied mercy, and sentenced, by Arya, to die a slow and painful death on the Hillside. There, in a sense, he "died", and was, perhaps in a sense, "reborn". In any event, he was delivered from a Judgment of Death by the Elder Brother, and perhaps by the gods. He has now been sentenced to digging graves. Sandor is now doing what he ought to do, which is dig graves.

There is no contradiction, in my book, between sympathizing with someone as a human being, and thinking that they deserve to be sentenced to death for their crimes. However, the more time that passes, the more the "mercy" versus "justice" equation favors mercy. Especially now that Sandor has already faced judgment and been sentenced to death.

Does Sandor "deserve" death? As a civil matter, sure. But not everyone, acting as a purely private individual, necessarily ought to take it on themselves to kill him. And he certainly ought not to kill himself.

[Drexyon7]

To be fair, many including myself believe the Hound was goading Arya into killing him with the whole "fucked her bloody" line.

Still his intentions during Blackwater are very very very questionable.

This however is irrelevant to Mycah, who is dead...because the Hound killed him...then laughed...

[Annara Snow]

The orders excuse is pretty ridiculous.

1. Blackwater showed that if he didn't want to do something the Hound wasn't going to be ordered to do something.

In the end. And what happened then? He didn't get punished - because it was in the middle of a big battle and nobody was going to send a bunch of men to arrest or kill him. Then he became known as a deserter, left and had to travel through the Riverlands as an outlaw on his own without any means of income (other than trying to ransom Arya - I guess he could have tried to kill and rob people, but he did not), was captured by actual outlaws and had all of his gold taken away, even when he found non-killing work in the village they finally told him to leave because other armed men would come looking for him sooner than later (Gregor's men most probably) and was finally attacked by Gregor's men and nearly killed.

Yes, I agree that he always had a choice. But let's be absolutely clear on what his choices were, and what a choice to disobey orders to the Lannister house entailed. It wasn't going to be "The Hound refuses orders, and remains in service and the Queen and King have no problem with it". I agree that he, and everyone else, bear responsibility for what they did on orders; but let's no pretend that it was easy to refuse. Refusing would have been noble and heroic. Sadly, not many people actually act noble and heroic. It's an exception rather than the rule. (Noble-minded knight Arys Oakheart did beat Sansa when he was ordered. Young and idealistic Jaime Lannister, pre-kingslaying, let the King rape and abuse his Queen every night, as did the rest of the Kingsguard).

[WeaselPie]

Not an apology, merely my take on this sentence:

"I meant to take her (out of KL), too. I should have (taken her with me). (It would have been better for her that) I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her to that dwarf (and those bloody Lannisters. That might have been a kinder fate than what she's facing now)."

Again, I'm not a Hound apologist. But that's how I read that sentence in context.

[The Drunkard]

Not an apology, merely my take on this sentence:

"I meant to take her (out of KL), too. I should have (taken her with me). (It would have been better for her that) I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her to that dwarf (and those bloody Lannisters. That might have been a kinder fate than what she's facing now)."

Again, I'm not a Hound apologist. But that's how I read that sentence in context.

:agree:

I took it literally when I first read it, but this is how I've interpreted it since.

[chrisdaw]

OH, the fact Cersei begged Jaime to kill Arya isn't pointer that she was looking to kill the witnesses of those events. If Sandor was told to capture the boy, he would have done so. Because he was obedient dog... They didn't call him Hound for nothing

Right so you have no evidence Sandor was ordered to kill Mycah, just the possibility and it suits your agenda. Cersei heavily implied to Jaime that she wanted Arya dead, but would not outright say it even though Jaime is her brother and lover and she saw Jaime push Bran out the window. We have no evidence Sandor even spoke with Cersei, for all we know it was Joff he heard the tale from and left to find Mycah from there, as we have no evidence of his orders, they could have simply been to find Mycah.

And Sandor never said he was ordered to do it, even though it should have been to the benefit of his defence.

[Newstar]

"

I meant to take her (out of KL), too. I should have (taken her with me). (It would have been better for her that) I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her to that dwarf (and those bloody Lannisters. That might have been a kinder fate than what she's facing now)."

But you realize that makes no sense, right? He's lamenting not taking her with him, and then he's immediately thereafter lamenting in the next sentence that he should have done X, Y and Z before leaving her behind? It doesn't follow at all. My reading is the only possible reading of that passage that makes any sense whatsoever, but it seems like posters will do whatever is in their power to wriggle out of Sandor admitting that he meant to rape Sansa. Apparently, a child murderer is one thing, but a would-be rapist is a whole other ball game. :D

Not to mention that the sense of "take" for taking the song doesn't match the sense of "taking" as in physically removing Sansa from King's Landing. "Take" for song and "take" for rape (as it's meant) match each other, roughly.

[Sansa_Stark]

Right so you have no evidence Sandor was ordered to kill Mycah, just the possibility and it suits your agenda. Cersei heavily implied to Jaime that she wanted Arya dead, but would not outright say it even though Jaime is her brother and lover and she saw Jaime push Bran out the window. We have no evidence Sandor even spoke with Cersei, for all we know it was Joff he heard the tale from and left to find Mycah from there, as we have no evidence of his orders, they could have simply been to find Mycah.

And Sandor never said he was ordered to do it, even though it should have been to the benefit of his defence.

Well, he kind of do have evidence that she did,

"You did not kill the butcher's boy. That murder lies at the Hound's door, him and the cruel woman he serves."

[Arakan]

Mycah technically committed a crime worthy of being killed and Sandor was ordered to carry it out.

On the other hand, the kids were innocent.

It's as simple as that.

What books are you reading? What crime did Mycah commit?

What a RETARDED comment. You should be banned for that.

[Cloud]

Yes, I agree that he always had a choice. But let's be absolutely clear on what his choices were, and what a choice to disobey orders to the Lannister house entailed. It wasn't going to be "The Hound refuses orders, and remains in service and the Queen and King have no problem with it". I agree that he, and everyone else, bear responsibility for what they did on orders; but let's no pretend that it was easy to refuse. Refusing would have been noble and heroic. Sadly, not many people actually act noble and heroic. It's an exception rather than the rule. (Noble-minded knight Arys Oakheart did beat Sansa when he was ordered. Young and idealistic Jaime Lannister, pre-kingslaying, let the King rape and abuse his Queen every night, as did the rest of the Kingsguard).

It's not that the hound didn't refuse orders. It's that he carried out the orders, AND enjoyed carrying them out.

The examples you listed are different. Arys beat Sansa, but didn't enjoy doing it (or so as Sansa suggests, he hit her softly). Jaime spoke against Aerys raping the queen, but was told my his "mentors" that letting the king rape the queen was the correct thing to do. Neither of them enjoyed what they were doing.

[chrisdaw]

Well, he kind of do have evidence that she did,

"You did not kill the butcher's boy. That murder lies at the Hound's door, him and the cruel woman he serves."

Well it is Ned's assumption.