Theon killing kids bad? Sandor doing it forgivable?

[WeaselPie]

I meant to take her (out of KL), too. I should have (taken her with me). (It would have been better for her that) I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her to that dwarf (and those bloody Lannisters. That might have been a kinder fate than what she's facing now)."

But you realize that makes no sense, right? He's lamenting not taking her with him, and then he's immediately thereafter lamenting in the next sentence that he should have done X, Y and Z before leaving her behind? It doesn't follow at all. My reading is the only possible reading of that passage that makes any sense whatsoever, but it seems like posters will do whatever is in their power to wriggle out of Sandor admitting that he meant to rape Sansa. Apparently, a child murderer is one thing, but a would-be rapist is a whole other ball game. :D

No. He is saying in the next sentence that it would have been better to have raped and killed her BEFORE leaving her to the dwarf, meaning she may have been better off dead than to stay with them. Your reading is not the only possibility. And no, I don't think he is a would-be child rapist. He had ample time with both girls to rape them. I would not be surprised if there is a young female or young sister in his history with Gregor that makes Sandor protective of the girls.

Again, no apologies for Sandor. He is a killer, but he is not a child rapist.

[Sullen]

What books are you reading? What crime did Mycah commit?

What a RETARDED comment. You should be banned for that.

As for as Sandor knew, Mycah had hit the Crown Prince, an act punishable by death.

As for the comparison with Theon, I say Sandor is worse.

Theon was in a state where he couldn't think clearly, and did not come up with the plan to kill the Miller's kids, he simply agreed to the suggestion. Besides, he clearly feels guilt about it as he experiences nightmares about it afterwards.

Sandor, on the other hand, laughs about killing the boy.

[Newstar]

I'm still foggy on whether the Hound was ordered to kill Mycah, or just to bring him back. Can anyone clarify that? It seems like there are a lot of assumptions flying around this thread. The Hound justifies riding down Mycah because he ran, which suggests to me wouldn't have killed him if he hadn't, which suggests to me that he wasn't ordered to kill him, merely to apprehend him. On the other hand, Cersei wanted Jaime to kill Arya, and I doubt she would given different orders for someone of much lower rank.

No. He is saying in the next sentence that it would have been better to have raped and killed her BEFORE leaving her to the dwarf, meaning she may have been better off dead than to stay with them.

No. Your reading suggests that he's regretting 1) not taking her with them and 2) not screwing her and leaving her for dead. That would make sense if the passage were phrased this way:

"I meant to take her [with me], too. I should have [taken her with me], or I should have fucked her bloody before leaving her..."

In that way, the "or" represents a separate alternative. I should have taken her with me (meaning I wouldn't rape and kill her), or at the least I should have raped her and left her corpse rather than leaving her to suffer with the Lannisters (meaning I wouldn't take her with me).

But there is no "or," is there? The meant to take/should have taken/should have fucked bit all flows together. I MEANT to do it, I SHOULD HAVE done it, I SHOULD HAVE done it before leaving her for Tyrion.

Again, my reading makes sense. Yours does not.

I would not be surprised if there is a young female or young sister in his history with Gregor that makes Sandor protective of the girls.

Nothing in the text to support this.

Again, no apologies for Sandor. He is a killer, but he is not a child rapist.

Not a child rapist, agreed. A would-be child rapist, yes.

[Sansa_Stark]

Well it is Ned's assumption.

Ned is usually fair about these types of things.

And it fits with Cersei's character.

[FNF]

What books are you reading? What crime did Mycah commit?

What a RETARDED comment. You should be banned for that.

Last time I checked, if the Prince claims a commoner attacked him, it's taken as fact. Therefore he committed a crime and the Hound, Cersei etc don't know better. Remember, this is a feudal society with little care of the peasantry.

Try to get your head out of your ass and put things in context.

[Annara Snow]

You're misreading the passage. Let's try it with my reading:

"I meant to [rape] her, too. I should have [raped her]. I should have [raped] her bloody..."

Let's try it with yours:

"I meant to take [her with me], too. I should have [taken her with me]. I should have fucked her bloody before leaving her..."

My reading makes sense. It flows logically: I meant to rape her, I should have, I should have raped her bloody. Yours does not make sense: I meant to take her with me, I should have taken her with me, I should have fucked her bloody before leaving her for Tyrion (???). Utterly nonsensical.

Lots of different kinds of rapists and would-be rapists, and lots of rapists and would-be rapists don't fit the Gregor sadistic rapist mould; most of them don't. They don't make them in a vat somewhere.

We don't have the benefit of his POV, so we don't know his reasons. What we do have is his statement that he meant to rape her, which, given him shoving her down on a bed at knifepoint, and given his implied rape threat to her ("I'll have a song from you, whether you will it or no"), and his comments on her attractiveness and breasts, is plain enough, even if it's not exactly clear when in that episode he formed the intention to rape her (probably when he shoved her down on the bed), and when precisely he changed his mind (probably when she sang for him and cupped his cheek).

Why are you stopping again at "should have fucked her bloody"? Again, what's with the "ripped her heart out" part? Does that flow logically, as you say? Let's try this way "I should have taken her, I should have... ripped her heart out?" Again, if you think he's saying he wanted to and should have raped her, is he also saying that he wanted to murder her by ripping her heart out and should have done it?

No, your reading does not make sense.

So, what are those "different rapists and would-be rapists" like? I'd really like to know the profile of this rapist who goes to a girl's room to tell her he will protect her and keep her safe, then gets upset that she's not looking at his face because he's ugly/scary, then threatens her with a knife and asks her... to sing a song? Then leaves. Without doing anything that would make sense if he was going to rape her... like threatening her immediately, ripping her clothes off, telling her to shut up and not make a sound, taking off his pants...

His comments on her having breasts and being "almost a woman", made in another situation earlier, only proves that he found her physically attractive. So, everyone who ever thought Sansa was attractive meant to rape her at some point?

We don't have the benefit of his POV, so we don't know his reasons. What we do have is his statement that he meant to rape her,

No, we don't.

Even if she doesn't seem to have consciously grasped it at the time, Sansa seems to have later intuited that he meant to rape her, from her false memory of his "cruel" kiss and her dream of him telling her "I'll have a song from you" with the Hound in her bed mingled with a terrified dream of Tyrion readying to rape her.

That's a most bizarre argument. Are you saying that Sansa is turned on by rape? Sansa obviously intuited that he was sexually attracted to her (not later - immediately, she thought he was going to kiss her) and the fact that she's been having romanticized AU sexual fantasies about him and about that night since - imagining it to the point of thinking it really happened and thinking she remembers how his kiss felt, is the last thing I would ever use as a proof that she thought he was going to rape her. Well, that, and that fact that she wrapped herself up in his bloody cloak, kept his cloak in her chest with her summer silks, keeps wishing he was there and imagining he has come to her rescue, etc.

If thinking someone is going to rape her does that to her, I wonder why she wasn't into Marillion then? Why wasn't he in her dream? Why isn't she thinking about the cruel mouth of Littlefinger, who actually did force a kiss on her in the Eyrie in ASOS and continues to harass/molest her?

[Sansa_Stark]

Last time I checked, if the Prince claims a commoner attacked him, it's taken as fact. Therefore he committed a crime and the Hound, Cersei etc don't know better. Remember, this is a feudal society with little care of the peasantry.

Try to get your head out of your ass and put things in context.

Read Dunk and Egg.

The Hedge Knight

[FNF]

Sandor, on the other hand, laughs about killing the boy.

Laughs about killing an alleged criminal*.

And Theon was thinking clearly all right. It was calculated.

[Arakan]

As for as Sandor knew, Mycah had hit the Crown Prince, an act punishable by death.

As for the comparison with Theon, I say Sandor is worse.

Theon was in a state where he couldn't think clearly, and did not come up with the plan to kill the Miller's kids, he simply agreed to the suggestion. Besides, he clearly feels guilt about it as he experiences nightmares about it afterwards.

Sandor, on the other hand, laughs about killing the boy.

First we are in the same boat. But second, this user gave an unbelievable apologist answer with the clear aim to whitewash Sandor. If am wrong (i dont think so) i apologize.

And what all the Sandor apologists love to forget: since when is butchering a fleeing child KING'S LAW? why not bringing Mycah before the king? Ned? Another Lord?

[FNF]

Read Dunk and Egg.

The Hedge Knight

This is Joffrey and Cersei we're talking about. Those are completely irrelevant.

[Sansa_Stark]

First we are in the same boat. But second, this user gave an unbelievable apologist answer with the clear aim to whitewash Sandor. If am wrong (i dont think so) i apologize.

And what all the Sandor apologists love to forget: since when is butchering a fleeing child KING'S LAW? why not bringing Mycah before the king? Ned? Another Lord?

Because Cersei ordered him dead.

[chrisdaw]

Ned is usually fair about these types of things.

And it fits with Cersei's character.

Ned couldn't know unless we're to believe he overheard Cersei specifically order Sandor to kill Mycah. Also Cersei's blame could simply be perpetuating (or concocting) the lie.

[WeaselPie]

Ok how about this then:

"I meant to take her too (out of KL. I tried to convince her but she refused). I should have (taken her with me by force if necessary to get her away from what she's facing now). (It would have been better for her that) I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out (as you seem to expect from me, but I'm not a rapist. I should have killed her) before leaving her to that dwarf (and those bloody Lannisters. That might have been a kinder fate than what she's facing now).

[Jasta11]

Both acts are utterly reprehensible, and a big reason why I simply cannot see Sandor as the tragic monster some make him out to be myself. There is no excuse for riding down a child then laughting about it afterwards, and it's implied he's done similar things before. Being nice to Sansa afterwards (partly because he wants her) doesn't make him much less of a child-killing scumbag.

As for ''it was just orders'', do we know if he was alone when he found Mycah? If he was in a group of Lannister guards, then I guess he did have said orders (albeit he had the choice of disobeying them and running, as Theon had the choice of leaving the Miller's boys and fleeing Winterfell). if The Hound was alone when he found the boy, then it's no excuse at all. He could easily have let him flee instead of riding him down and cutting him in half. But anyway, making a joke of it afterwards kinda destroys the whole argument IMO; there's a difference between carrying out orders you don't want to fulfill half-heartedly, and laughting at your own slaughter of a child. Sandor is not a complete psychopath, but he seemingly not only did not question, but enjoyed carrying out such a vile order.

Not that Theon is much better. His ''Prince of Winterfell'' act was doomed from the start, and his failure to realize that cost many people their lives, including two completely innocent boys.

[FNF]

First we are in the same boat. But second, this user gave an unbelievable apologist answer with the clear aim to whitewash Sandor. If am wrong (i dont think so) i apologize.

And what all the Sandor apologists love to forget: since when is butchering a fleeing child KING'S LAW? why not bringing Mycah before the king? Ned? Another Lord?

Orders are orders. Y'now what, why didn't he just buy Mycah a ticket for ' MEDIEVAL LAND FUN-TIME WORLD' instead of killing him?

[Dance Layder]

You're right guys, when you do something "under orders" it's completely forgivable. Just ask any nazi.

[MasterJack]

I dont care a lot about the killing of nameless kids (in ASOIAF guys), if I start to care about every crimes I ll start to hate every pov except... bran?

Some ppl will hate with their entire soul any bad character.. man who cares as long as they are interesting, and sandor and theon are interesting. They can live forever killing unborn child for breakfeast it doesnt matter.

[FNF]

You're right guys, when you do something "under orders" it's completely forgivable. Just ask any nazi.

Err, you do realise that many Germans were excused/forgiven for their acts in WWII, right?

[Newstar]

Why are you stopping again at "should have fucked her bloody"? Again, what's with the "ripped her heart out" part? Does that flow logically, as you say? Let's try this way "I should have taken her, I should have... ripped her heart out?" Again, if you think he's saying he wanted to and should have raped her, is he also saying that he wanted to murder her by ripping her heart out and should have done it?

No, he only "meant to" rape her. As he says.

Without doing anything that would make sense if he was going to rape her... like threatening her immediately, ripping her clothes off, telling her to shut up and not make a sound, taking off his pants...

Again, lots of different kinds of rapists. You seem to be saying that because Sandor doesn't fit the profile of what you imagine to be a stereotypical predator rapist, he couldn't possibly have been intending to rape Sansa. Sorry to disabuse you on that particular point.

His comments on her having breasts and being "almost a woman", made in another situation earlier, only proves that he found her physically attractive. So, everyone who ever thought Sansa was attractive meant to rape her at some point?

LOL, in between Tyrion, Littlefinger, Marillion and Sandor, in these books, pretty much.

Sansa obviously intuited that he was sexually attracted to her

No, she intuited that he meant to rape her. The mashup of "I'll have a song from you" (implied rape threat) and Tyrion in bed with her (implied rape threat) turning into the Hound in bed with her links the Hound to a rape threat. She doesn't seem to have consciously realized it, even though she realizes as of AFFC that the mob was trying to rape her (a realization she doesn't seem to have reached before that time).

If thinking someone is going to rape her does that to her, I wonder why she wasn't into Marillion then?

Eh, GRRM has written a girl falling in love with her actual rapist before (Dany/Drogo). It's a trope I hate, but him having a girl fall in love with her would-be rapist and romanticize his assault on her at knifepoint would hardly be unexpected after the Dany/Drogo debacle.

[WeaselPie]

Since when is riding down and butchering a fleeing child king's law? Since when can the Queen order anything with executive and judicial power when the king is there as well?

Again, for the 3rd time, for the record, so don't shoot me (not directed at you personally) I'm not a Hound apologist, but Cersei did order plenty of other killings behind several king's backs.