Stannis's huge victory at the wall.

[Bronn Urgandy]

dude, the Starks are always aware of there always being a threat from the North. duh... like Winter is totally Coming ring any bells?

The Starks are probably literally the only family that is steeped in a tradition of magic, and while they believe that it has been gone, they still believe in it being real. Dire Wolves south of the wall is an unusual and IMO supernatural occurrence that the Starks (eventually) come to embrace.

They remember how many Kings of Winter have died defending the North....they remember how there are threats how there (while gone and dormant for many years) The Starks, if anyone are the one house that would realize the real threat and deal with it quicker than any other house.

It seems that STannis is fulfilling the role of the Starks at the moment which I am dying to see how it unfolds, with Stannis still offering Jon Winterfell, and Rickon being fetched by Davos...

Whether from strictly a practical position in that the 'North loves the Starks' (minus the Boltons) and he needs the North....or for another reason as well, right now Stannis is just a place holder it seems to be for the Starks, once he secures the North, which he is hoping to do with a Stark, he will move on, hopefully in his mind, with a Stark backing him.

Now, who knows where he will move on, north or south... but he does intend to move on once the North, Winterfell, and the Starks are all put to rights. He is obviously not doing so out of any love for them, he is doing it for a practical reason...maybe more than one.

All you've said is in history though, what have the Starks done for the good of the realm in the current five books we have out at the moment? Nothing, Robb went south to play war, even though Eddard in the same book says he might need to go North to deal with Mance Rayder, and Stannis eventually recognises the threat, a role historically given to the Starks, and rides North, to do what the Starks didnt. My point was, in the context of the current novels, Stannis is a more traditional hero than the Starks, when it is looked at from the bigger perspective and not "raargh, you chopped off daddy's head! You die now!"

If theres one thing I dont like, its the idea of Stannis as a placeholder, it just reeks of prophecy, like, Stannis is merely stemming the tide until the "real heros" spring forth, reminds me an awful lot of Denethor from Lord Of The Rings, a guy thats fought off Sauron for years, mentally wrestling him (ill-advised as it is) only for the rightful King to show up and save everybody. Whether that be Danearys or a Stark. YAY!

Its like the whole GNC thing as well, the North says "thanks for helping free Winterfell Stannis, now piss off! We've got a Stark and we're independent again," and some people are actually supporting this as well! See, for me Stannis is the King that cared, not the King that was convenient and then be discarded.

Once again, people want to narrow Stannis down to the role of placeholder. The only person in the series to lift a finger (outside of NW obv) to fight the real threat and do something of real importance, but nah, he's just a placeholder cos "Starks and Dany are the real heros yeh!?!"

[Sir Noone Sword Of The Day]

I really like stannis despite his flaws, and his victory in the north was very important. He is now back in the challenge for the crown because of it and IMO forced the formation of a basis for a north/wildling alliance

[Sir Noone Sword Of The Day]

"raargh, you chopped off daddy's head! You die now!" understand your argument and agree with you on quite a few points but seriously, you don't have to dumb rob stark down like this. The reason he went south was to free his father not wage war, and he brought his army because he felt threatened by the incarceration of his father by the king and to what happened to his grandfather and uncle when they went south. History is important to remember when deciding the future. I do agree that robb wasn't a decision maker. Personally what i reckon he should have done was waited like doran martell and carefully plan out his revenge

[HannibalStark]

All you've said is in history though, what have the Starks done for the good of the realm in the current five books we have out at the moment? Nothing, Robb went south to play war, even though Eddard in the same book says he might need to go North to deal with Mance Rayder, and Stannis eventually recognises the threat, a role historically given to the Starks, and rides North, to do what the Starks didnt. My point was, in the context of the current novels, Stannis is a more traditional hero than the Starks, when it is looked at from the bigger perspective and not "raargh, you chopped off daddy's head! You die now!"

If theres one thing I dont like, its the idea of Stannis as a placeholder, it just reeks of prophecy, like, Stannis is merely stemming the tide until the "real heros" spring forth, reminds me an awful lot of Denethor from Lord Of The Rings, a guy thats fought off Sauron for years, mentally wrestling him (ill-advised as it is) only for the rightful King to show up and save everybody. Whether that be Danearys or a Stark. YAY!

Its like the whole GNC thing as well, the North says "thanks for helping free Winterfell Stannis, now piss off! We've got a Stark and we're independent again," and some people are actually supporting this as well! See, for me Stannis is the King that cared, not the King that was convenient and then be discarded.

Once again, people want to narrow Stannis down to the role of placeholder. The only person in the series to lift a finger (outside of NW obv) to fight the real threat and do something of real importance, but nah, he's just a placeholder cos "Starks and Dany are the real heros yeh!?!"

dude, what? huh?

I'm not diminishing Stannis in anyway. Yippee for Stannis, hip hip horay fo Stannis.

You are right in that Stannis is taking care of Stark business, stuff that normally would be done by a Stark...so how is he not a place holder for the Starks at the moment? He is literally filling the role a Stark has because there are no Starks to do it...HE IS DOING THEIR JOB BECAUSE THEY CAN'T.

I was responding to the comment about how the Starks or others dont recognize or realize the potential threat (the true threat) in the North. I was saying that of any of the houses, the Starks might literally have been the only ones that would take threat from the Others seriously were others blow it off as snarks and grumpkins.

Dude, you need to back off the man love of Stannis for a second... I didn't say anything bad about him....but you are all like crazy mad in love with Stannis that I don't think you are reading posts for what they are.

Stannis is one of the only ones actually manning up in this series and doing that HE thinks is right, what HE THINKS is his duty. He alone is standing up to defend the realm when needed. He believes he is the true and lawful king (which is actually is discounting Dany or (F)aegon)

He doesn't even seem to want to be King, but as he did with Robert, and seeming as he did with his wife on their marriage night and now as he is doing at the wall, and now assuming he is taking Winterfell to secure it, he is doing his duty.

Thats makes him more of a "hero" than most, if thats how you want to see it...he isn't seemingly doing what he wants, or what is easy but he is doing what he must. When many run from their duty, he is heading straight into peril because he thinks he must

I am not sure how you took such wild offense that I called Stannis a place holder for the Starks, but dude, that is exactly what he is. Does that make him any less bad ass or heroic?

Tyrion was a place holder for his father as Hand of the King, and he quite literally if you ask me, almost single handedly defended KL.

Since when can't a place holder be a bad ass?

[Bronn Urgandy]

You quoted me a bit out of context there, HannibalStark

Then why are the only Starks with any form of power dead? This is the song of ice and fire, and unless Bran goes super saiyan (spelling might be bad, I don't follow that stuff) or something then Stannis has done more to protect the realm than any Stark. Therefore fitting a more traditional definition of hero. Most of the Starks aren't even aware that there is a threat from the North, and Stannis, a southron King has done more to protect the North than the people, who traditionally, it is there duty to do so. We started with the Starks, that doesn't necessarily make them more heroic, Doran Martell may play a bigger part than any of them, and he got introduced in book 4.

dude, the Starks are always aware of there always being a threat from the North. duh... like Winter is totally Coming ring any bells?

The Starks are probably literally the only family that is steeped in a tradition of magic, and while they believe that it has been gone, they still believe in it being real. Dire Wolves south of the wall is an unusual and IMO supernatural occurrence that the Starks (eventually) come to embrace.

They remember how many Kings of Winter have died defending the North....they remember how there are threats how there (while gone and dormant for many years) The Starks, if anyone are the one house that would realize the real threat and deal with it quicker than any other house.

It seems that STannis is fulfilling the role of the Starks at the moment which I am dying to see how it unfolds, with Stannis still offering Jon Winterfell, and Rickon being fetched by Davos...

Whether from strictly a practical position in that the 'North loves the Starks' (minus the Boltons) and he needs the North....or for another reason as well, right now Stannis is just a place holder it seems to be for the Starks, once he secures the North, which he is hoping to do with a Stark, he will move on, hopefully in his mind, with a Stark backing him.

Now, who knows where he will move on, north or south... but he does intend to move on once the North, Winterfell, and the Starks are all put to rights. He is obviously not doing so out of any love for them, he is doing it for a practical reason...maybe more than one.

My point was the guy I was responding to said that the Starks are the heroes of the story, not Stannis. I merely pointed out that as far as contibutions to the greater good, Stannis has done more than the Starks so far. You then bought up that the Starks throughout history have defended the realm, etc. Something which I have never denied. In fact, I admitted that it is their duty to do so, throughout history but I said that the current generation of Starks have forgotten that, which is why Stannis had to step in.

dude, what? huh?

I'm not diminishing Stannis in anyway. Yippee for Stannis, hip hip horay fo Stannis.

You are right in that Stannis is taking care of Stark business, stuff that normally would be done by a Stark...so how is he not a place holder for the Starks at the moment? He is literally filling the role a Stark has because there are no Starks to do it...HE IS DOING THEIR JOB BECAUSE THEY CAN'T.

I was responding to the comment about how the Starks or others dont recognize or realize the potential threat (the true threat) in the North. I was saying that of any of the houses, the Starks might literally have been the only ones that would take threat from the Others seriously were others blow it off as snarks and grumpkins.

Dude, you need to back off the man love of Stannis for a second... I didn't say anything bad about him....but you are all like crazy mad in love with Stannis that I don't think you are reading posts for what they are.

Stannis is one of the only ones actually manning up in this series and doing that HE thinks is right, what HE THINKS is his duty. He alone is standing up to defend the realm when needed. He believes he is the true and lawful king (which is actually is discounting Dany or (F)aegon)

He doesn't even seem to want to be King, but as he did with Robert, and seeming as he did with his wife on their marriage night and now as he is doing at the wall, and now assuming he is taking Winterfell to secure it, he is doing his duty.

Thats makes him more of a "hero" than most, if thats how you want to see it...he isn't seemingly doing what he wants, or what is easy but he is doing what he must. When many run from their duty, he is heading straight into peril because he thinks he must

I am not sure how you took such wild offense that I called Stannis a place holder for the Starks, but dude, that is exactly what he is. Does that make him any less bad ass or heroic?

Tyrion was a place holder for his father as Hand of the King, and he quite literally if you ask me, almost single handedly defended KL.

Since when can't a place holder be a bad ass?

Sorry mate, its just you seemed to be saying that what Stannis has done is immaterial, and that soon he'll be pushed aside so that he real heros of the story can make their mark. Taken in context of the post I was responding too, where the guy was doing all he could to belittle everything Stannis, I think its quite understandable that I assumed you were on the "Stannis is unimportant, Starks/Northern master race is what this story is about" bandwagon.

As for the bolded part, seriously, if you'd read the post I was responding too, and my post, then unless I am severely less articulate than I thought (and I don't think much of my articulation) you should know that I'd never have disagreed with that notion. I merely said the current generation were too wrapped up in their own affairs to notice.

As far as the Stannis man love, well, I think he's awesome.

And the placeholder rant literally is aimed at the aforementioned school of thought, those people that think the North is going to accept Stannis' help and then kick him out to crown another Stark, or worse, Jon Snow, or that Stannis' contibution is merely to set the path for the real PWTP. Which, when you look at the context of the post I responded too, and the way you responded to mine, it isn't unreasonable for me to assume that that is what you meant, since my mind was still geared against QueenDanearys Stormborn.

Is it possible that your Stark love led you to jump to conclusions a bit there yourself? ;)

[BericDondarrion]

Wait people still try to say the Wildling army was 10000 or less? AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Look at my quote. "I smashed Mance Rayder at the wall, even though he had 20 times my numbers"

First of all, Stannis only had 1500 people, so 20x1500 is 30,000 soldiers. Even if it was only 5000 soldiers, do you guys really wanna argue because you hate Stannis so much? What a joke, Stannis win at the wall was amazing. 1500 knights vs 20-30,000 men.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Haha, sorry, thats fair enough. I guess it was just my unsubtle attempt to point out that once the real enemy is known, most Human rivalries/hatred's are fairly pointless by comparison.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Can't be that great, wildlings haven't taken over the realm once since the Wall was built a gazillion years ago.

Don't see why it's extra special they didn't do it this time.

Nice victory that Stannis can add to his resume and gloat about, but nothing amazing.

He didn't stop them from crossing anyway, he just subdued them and made it be a peaceful invasion of wildlings instead of a violent one

[HannibalStark]

You quoted me a bit out of context there, HannibalStark

My point was the guy I was responding to said that the Starks are the heroes of the story, not Stannis. I merely pointed out that as far as contibutions to the greater good, Stannis has done more than the Starks so far. You then bought up that the Starks throughout history have defended the realm, etc. Something which I have never denied. In fact, I admitted that it is their duty to do so, throughout history but I said that the current generation of Starks have forgotten that, which is why Stannis had to step in.

Sorry mate, its just you seemed to be saying that what Stannis has done is immaterial, and that soon he'll be pushed aside so that he real heros of the story can make their mark. Taken in context of the post I was responding too, where the guy was doing all he could to belittle everything Stannis, I think its quite understandable that I assumed you were on the "Stannis is unimportant, Starks/Northern master race is what this story is about" bandwagon.

As for the bolded part, seriously, if you'd read the post I was responding too, and my post, then unless I am severely less articulate than I thought (and I don't think much of my articulation) you should know that I'd never have disagreed with that notion. I merely said the current generation were too wrapped up in their own affairs to notice.

As far as the Stannis man love, well, I think he's awesome.

And the placeholder rant literally is aimed at the aforementioned school of thought, those people that think the North is going to accept Stannis' help and then kick him out to crown another Stark, or worse, Jon Snow, or that Stannis' contibution is merely to set the path for the real PWTP. Which, when you look at the context of the post I responded too, and the way you responded to mine, it isn't unreasonable for me to assume that that is what you meant, since my mind was still geared against QueenDanearys Stormborn.

Is it possible that your Stark love led you to jump to conclusions a bit there yourself? ;)

again, where have I denied Stannis his credit? Im not even sure what we are talking about anymore.

There is no Stark in Winterfell (something Stannis has already tried to rectify more than once) forcing Stannis to step in and act the Stark, completing their job, since there is no Stark to do so.

I still had yet to try to take any credit away from Stannis yet, until now...

Does Stannis step up to the plate and do what he must? He does.. I wasn't going to try to take the shimmer out of that magic sword Stannis carries, but what the hell, mate?

The Old Bear lead what would be 300 'men' of the Night's Watch to face an undetermined number of wildings north of the wall...Mormont obviously thought he stood much more than a fair chance against them or he would never have marched north. (Its just too bad he never actually faced the wildings, and his own men slew him)

But over and over Jon mentions I think both before and after he turns his cloak how in a battle discipline wins over numbers, and one thing the vast host of the wildlings lack as a whole is discipline and experience, especially in battle.

Unless you are going to claim that Jon, while holding the Wall from both sides, is the greatest warrior to ever live and his battles at the wall holding off the wildings will be forever remembered by Westeros throughout the ages....then I am afraid you actually can deny the claim that Stannis won a huge victory at the wall.

Did Stannis step up when no one else did or would? Yes. Did Stannis actually act like a King and 'defend' the realm at the wall and come when the NW asked him for help? Yes. (although only after Davos insisted...and I think it had has much to do with him needing his men to do something as it did with doing his duty) The one thing that will end his fight for the Iron Throne is not fighting. Stannis needed to have his men win a victory after being beaten at the Blackwater.

So (due to my Stark love apparently) I need more reason to think what Stannis did at the wall was a HUGE Victory....

Jon Snow and the remaining handful of NW left at Castle Black successfully repelled multiple attacks from the wildlings...with men that had little to no experience, and were exhausted-most men that had never seen battle.

After Jon and the handful of Black Brothers had denied Mance entry south of the wall, (so thousands of wildlings had been denied a victory of any kind by only a handful of Crows) Imagine what this does to the morale of an army like that? But morale aside, the wildings were literally still waking up, cooking breakfast and all standing down (not expecting or prepared for battle) in anticipation of Mance treating with a rep from the NW.. So you have an 'army' of thousands of undisciplined, unwashed northern, Northerners with their camps literally set up at random with zero thought of defense, with zero expectation of battle with zero prep of any kind...

here comes Stannis with a well trained, already blooded, well disciplined heavy cavalry, many of whom have been training to become knights since they were boys, men bearing down on unarmed, unarmored, unprepared wildlings either just waking up, cooking/eating breakfast or taking their morning shit or piss....how is that considered a HUGE victory?

If Mormont thought he could do damage with 300 men (and Mormont knew the wildings) , what do you think at least 4 times that number could do?

All Stannis did was take the wildlings unaware and unprepared after they had been repelled over and over by a mere fraction of the men Stannis had....Stannis came in and kicked them while they were down.

Imagine a field full of geese all just chillin, eating, pooping, sleeping...all just chillin... to call what Stannis did a HUGE victory would be like calling the dog that runs into the field scattering the geese a great strategist, or a great warrior...because that is essentially all Stannis did.

[E-Ro]

Except those geese wouldn't be able to smash one of the dogs columns of horse, like the wildlings did. Your post is wrong and a GROSS oversimplification of the events at the wall.

[aceluby]

Wait people still try to say the Wildling army was 10000 or less? AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Look at my quote. "I smashed Mance Rayder at the wall, even though he had 20 times my numbers"

First of all, Stannis only had 1500 people, so 20x1500 is 30,000 soldiers. Even if it was only 5000 soldiers, do you guys really wanna argue because you hate Stannis so much? What a joke, Stannis win at the wall was amazing. 1500 knights vs 20-30,000 men.

It was no better than what Robb did at Whispering Wood and the foes at WW were much more formidable. Stannis sneak attacked while the 'army' was in their tents and surrounded by women and children and in the end did exactly what we expected the wildlings to react with two books of foreshadowing... they ran. It was a good victory, but hardly anything I'd call 'amazing'.

[Queen Daenerys Stormborn]

Except those geese wouldn't be able to smash one of the dogs columns of horse, like the wildlings did. Your post is wrong and a GROSS oversimplification of the events at the wall.

Have you seen one of these gooses. He is very capable of taking out horsedogs.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=canada+geese&id=798DC3AD30C23B710BF9D97085793E27E009FCC7&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=798DC3AD30C23B710BF9D97085793E27E009FCC7&selectedIndex=0

[E-Ro]

Have you seen one of these gooses. He is very capable of taking out horsedogs.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=canada+geese&id=798DC3AD30C23B710BF9D97085793E27E009FCC7&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=798DC3AD30C23B710BF9D97085793E27E009FCC7&selectedIndex=0

LOL. I stand corrected.

[Bronn Urgandy]

again, where have I denied Stannis his credit? Im not even sure what we are talking about anymore.

There is no Stark in Winterfell (something Stannis has already tried to rectify more than once) forcing Stannis to step in and act the Stark, completing their job, since there is no Stark to do so.

I still had yet to try to take any credit away from Stannis yet, until now...

Does Stannis step up to the plate and do what he must? He does.. I wasn't going to try to take the shimmer out of that magic sword Stannis carries, but what the hell, mate?

Oh for fucks sake! I NEVER SAID YOU BELITTLED STANNIS' ACHIEVEMENTS! FUUUUUCK!!!! Reading comprehension. You jumped all over me because apparently I undermined every Stark throghout history. I even apologised. Stop seeing what isnt there. Stop it!

Edit; The aggressiveness of this post is meant mostly in jest.

[E-Ro]

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT

[Trigger Warning]

Great victories aren't necessarily hard fought.

[HannibalStark]

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT

I'd bet a well coordinated (disciplined) column of geese could do some damage to or at least fend off that dog too.

and Bronn... You find me being offended at anything you said about the Starks? In the books let alone throughout 'history' ? I don't need to defend the Starks in a post about Stannis at the wall. I think you are reading too much into my board name....stating Stannis is taking the place of a Stark (if there was one in Winterfell) for fucks sake... I could give two shits if someone wants to talk shit about the Starks, its irrelevant in most cases anyway. As many people hate them as like them.

...Stannis has showed much more common sense and whatever else you might call it than Ned or probably even Robb... Stannis is still alive and Starks are dying left and right.

I just don't think Stannis rumbling over camps of wildlings as they are waking up with 1,200 horse when Mormont set out to face them head on with 300 men...I just don't see this as being a HUGE victory, or one that people will even much care about later on.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Handbags at dawn I say.

I'd bet a well coordinated (disciplined) column of geese could do some damage to or at least fend off that dog too.

and Bronn... You find me being offended at anything you said about the Starks? In the books let alone throughout 'history' ? I don't need to defend the Starks in a post about Stannis at the wall. I think you are reading too much into my board name....stating Stannis is taking the place of a Stark (if there was one in Winterfell) for fucks sake... I could give two shits if someone wants to talk shit about the Starks, its irrelevant in most cases anyway. As many people hate them as like them.

...Stannis has showed much more common sense and whatever else you might call it than Ned or probably even Robb... Stannis is still alive and Starks are dying left and right.

I just don't think Stannis rumbling over camps of wildlings as they are waking up with 1,200 horse when Mormont set out to face them head on with 300 men...I just don't see this as being a HUGE victory, or one that people will even much care about later on.

Then this begs the question; Why did you respond to my post in the first place? I only said that he's done more than the current crop of Starks in the context of the story and you started talking about Direwolves and stuff lol. I agreed with you about the Starks, but thats where this whole thing stemmed from.

I mistook your meaning about Stannis, apologised and explained why I mistook your meaning Its like we are agreeing and yet somehow you keep arguing with me.

You can say what you want about the actual battle. Mormont expected him and his men to die, Stannis' attack was cleverly done.

[Queen Daenerys Stormborn]

Wait people still try to say the Wildling army was 10000 or less? AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Look at my quote. "I smashed Mance Rayder at the wall, even though he had 20 times my numbers"

First of all, Stannis only had 1500 people, so 20x1500 is 30,000 soldiers. Even if it was only 5000 soldiers, do you guys really wanna argue because you hate Stannis so much? What a joke, Stannis win at the wall was amazing. 1500 knights vs 20-30,000 men.

The numbers of all the wildlings is in the prologue of SoS and the whole migration is 20-30,000. It is impossible for there to be 20-30,000 warriors. Stannis was just giving the total figure for all Mance's people when he spoke of Mance's numbers.

[The Drunkard]

The numbers of all the wildlings is in the prologue of SoS and the whole migration is 20-30,000. It is impossible for there to be 20-30,000 warriors. Stannis was just giving the total figure for all Mance's people when he spoke of Mance's numbers.

Those numbers come from Kedge, who both admits he didn't count with any accuracy, and that he didn't see the main body end.