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Tyrion & Shae


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#1 4th Dragon Head

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:30 AM

Sorry if this has been beat to death as a topic before, but I'm fairly new to these boards and haven't seen much on it

 

I have absolutely no problem with Tyrion killing Shae. Granted, it wasn't the actions of a sane individual, but since when is that what Tyrion is?

 

We are talking about a guy who has just been abandoned by everyone that he knows. Everyone sees him as this monster who selfishly killed his nephew to take the throne for himself. Top that off by throwing in that the woman he loved lied during his trial and said all these things about him raping her and wanting the throne for himself.

 

I'm aware that Shae's interest in him was feigned, and he probably knew that too, but that in no way gives her the right to do or say what she did. She knew how much he liked it when she would call him "her giant of lannister", and she just throws that in his face.

 

On top of all of that, he is (rightly, in my opinion) about to go kill his father for giving him the "lesson" that he got when he was 13. And who does he find in his bed, just the girl he has loved since the middle of aGoT.

 

I'll allow that emotion does get the best of everyone and causes us to make rash decisions. And like I said, his actions weren't indicative of him being sane, but I, for one, was glad that he killed her. As I read, I couldn't help but side with Tyrion on this one. I know she was a whore and was only doing her job, but her betrayal didn't have to extend as far as it did..

 

Thoughts?



#2 Kienn

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:33 AM

I honestly don't get why people are so rough on Shae. How does anyone know she wasn't sincere?

Because she caved under torture by Cersei and Tywin? Excuse me while I wait to see how you respond to similar torture and end up denouncing your own mother, daughter, and wife.

#3 Lee-Sensei

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:34 AM

Tyrion and Shae—15 signs of an abusive relationship - General (ASoIaF) - A Forum of Ice and Fire

 

Nope. It wasn't justified. It's not her fault he fell in love with her.



#4 Idioteque

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:35 AM

I was so pissed off when she appeared in the trial. so yeah, I'm on Tyrion's side too.



#5 Idioteque

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:36 AM

Tyrion and Shae—15 signs of an abusive relationship - General (ASoIaF) - A Forum of Ice and Fire

 

Nope. It wasn't justified. It's not her fault he fell in love with her.

 

are you even serious. come on.



#6 Lee-Sensei

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:39 AM

are you even serious. come on.

Oh, completely. The whitewashing of Tyrion needs to stop.


Edited by Lee-Sensei, 18 March 2014 - 10:42 AM.


#7 Chillboy

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:49 AM

Why is Shae in Tywins bed anyway?

 

I can't imagine her being Tywin's whore after what he has done to his father's whore and his complaints about Tyrion's whoring.



#8 Mikkel

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:50 AM

Why is Shae in Tywins bed anyway?

 

I can't imagine her being Tywin's whore after what he has done to his father's whore and his complaints about Tyrion's whoring.

 

That's exactly what she is: Tywin's whore. Tywin is a hypocrite in the extreme.



#9 Idioteque

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:53 AM

Oh, completely. The whitewashing of Tyrion needs to stop.

 

if by that you mean "lets blame everything on him disregarding all the crap he's had to swallow during his entire life"..



#10 Lee-Sensei

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:56 AM

if by that you mean "lets blame everything on him disregarding all the crap he's had to swallow during his entire life"..

Tyrions has a tragic backstory, but having reasons to be screwed up doesn't mean that anytime he does something evil it's justified.



#11 Lee-Sensei

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:57 AM

if by that you mean "lets blame everything on him disregarding all the crap he's had to swallow during his entire life"..

Tyrions has a tragic backstory, but having reasons to be screwed up doesn't mean that anytime he does something evil it's justified.



#12 Dany Girl

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:00 AM

 
are you even serious. come on.


Yes, Tyrion was very abusive. He kept Shea essentially hostage in KL, revoked what he had payed her so she had no means to leave. He liked to tell her stories about the horrible things he's done like the Tysha situation. He killed the singer, the only "friend" Shea was able to make. Kept her in an incredibly dangerous situation with no means of escape. Forced her to work for Sansa but keep fucking him even though he wwasn't paying her.

Then when he gets arrested, what choice does she have? She likely was either found out or was already Tywin's spy and had no choice but to testify.

Tyrion told her to act like she loves him, it's his fault he believed her not hers. He had no right to kill her. He was dead wrong in this situation.


The only thing I fault Shea for is throwing Sansa under the bus knowing her innocence, but I'm sure she was told to do so by either Cersei or LF.

#13 ghosts in winterfell

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:05 AM

I don't find Shae's murder to be justified.  A whore's gotta do what a whore's gotta do.  Tyrion knew keeping her around was a bad idea, but he refused to let it go.  

 

Tyrion and Shae—15 signs of an abusive relationship - General (ASoIaF) - A Forum of Ice and Fire

 

Nope. It wasn't justified. It's not her fault he fell in love with her.

 

Wow @ that first response.  



#14 Cubarey

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:07 AM

Killing Shae was not evil. She betrayed Tyrian and got to be Tywin's whore as a reward. She wanted riches and to be around power. That is why she stayed with Tyrian when he wanted her to go. When Tyrian was accused of Joffrey's murder she betrayed her way into Tywin's death. The price of betrayal in Westeros is death. Shae earned hers.



#15 The Ned's Little Girl

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:07 AM

 

if by that you mean "lets blame everything on him disregarding all the crap he's had to swallow during his entire life"..

 

Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? People are capable of thinking on different levels simultaneously. It's perfectly possible to be deeply sympathetic to Tyrion's horrible upbringing AND be outraged by his crimes at the same time.



#16 4th Dragon Head

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:21 AM

I understand where you're coming from if you say that she was just in it for the money. Bc she was, flat out, just in it for the money.

 

But I don't think that justifies her testifying at his trial AND sleeping with the man that has tormented Tyrion since the day he was born. Tyron did what he did throughout CoK and SoS just to protect her from his sister and, eventually, his father. He clearly loved her, and I think the double betrayal of her lying to the court and sleeping with Tywin was just too much for him to handle.

 

And then she tries to act all innocent once he finds her in bed, and even goes so far as to call him "her giant" again. As he told her, "that was the worst thing you could have said, sweetling", (paraphrase). I get that a whore is a whore, and she didn't love him. And I think if that's all it was, he could have let it go. He had plenty of whores who didn't love him. I think it was the double betrayal that made him do it.

 

I, like everyone, have no idea what GRRM was thinking when he wrote that, but I would speculate that he didn't expect the outrage that has come out over Tyrion killing Shae. In my mind, when he wrote it, it was as a chance for Tyrion to get vengeance on one of the many people that wronged him. And that's how I saw it. Even on rereads when I know its coming, seeing her up there lying to the court, this girl he loved, makes me feel nothing but sympathy for our favorite dwarf (not counting Gimli son of Gloin)


Edited by 4th Dragon Head, 18 March 2014 - 11:23 AM.


#17 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:29 AM

To be fair,. Tyrion didn't purposely and meticulously planned to kill Shae. He didn't even expect her to meet her at the TotH.

 

When he enters his father's bedchamber, he's still thinking about what Jaime has just revealed to him about Tysha and how his father has simply lied to him in order to teach him a lesson. And, he founds Shae, a whore, in his father's bed. Also, Shae, stupidly, calls him "giant", which is what she also said during the trial, causing everybody to laugh at him. The trial was not only to prove he was the murdered of Joffrey but they wanted to humiliate him (Cersei probably wanted it) so he could look even more guilty and less likeable. At the end, only Oberyn helped him because he had his own personal reasons. But the fact that he had no one else to speak in his favour condemned him even more. At least Bronn was honest and told him to his face that he wouldn't fight the Mountain.

 

Tyrion committed a passion crime and those aren't always planned, simply are caused by the rage of the moment, which happened to him. Then, he killed his father.



#18 Lee-Sensei

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:29 AM

Killing Shae was not evil. She betrayed Tyrian and got to be Tywin's whore as a reward. She wanted riches and to be around power. That is why she stayed with Tyrian when he wanted her to go. When Tyrian was accused of Joffrey's murder she betrayed her way into Tywin's death. The price of betrayal in Westeros is death. Shae earned hers.

If Tyrion wanted to send her away he would have. He had the power, not Shae.



#19 Cas Stark

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:32 AM

Shae was a bad person she was not abused or victimized by Tyrion.  

 

But, lets be clear, he didn't kill her for betraying him at the trlal, he kills her when she calls him her giant of Lannister because he sees that she still thinks she can snow him using his love and sexual obsession with her.  That is why he kills her. 

 

And that is straight up murder and cannot be justified on the ground that the person he killed happened to be a lying whore and a bad person.



#20 Dany Girl

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:35 AM

I understand where you're coming from if you say that she was just in it for the money. Bc she was, flat out, just in it for the money.
 
But I don't think that justifies her testifying at his trial AND sleeping with the man that has tormented Tyrion since the day he was born. Tyron did what he did throughout CoK and SoS just to protect her from his sister and, eventually, his father. He clearly loved her, and I think the double betrayal of her lying to the court and sleeping with Tywin was just too much for him to handle.
 



How do you know she wasn't forced to testify? Cersei easily could have found out about her. Look how Alayana (sp?) was treated. Think Cersei would spare Shea if she found out about her? No way. I believe that Shea was likely forced to testify. Then Tywin probably propositioned her and since she had NOTHING, she had no choice but to be with him. Tyrion left her destitute by not allowing her any of her payments. No gold, no jewels, no silks. How else was she supposed to support herself?

Shea is a victim that did not deserve to die.