Deconstructing the myth about Northern honor

[Mladen]

One of the greatest misconceptions of ASOIAF is ludicrous idea of existence of something called “Northern honor”. The belief of this misconception which is unfortunately widely spread in the fandom is that Northerners are genuinely honorable people comparing them to the cunning snakes Southerners are. This thread’s point is to prove that such idea is wrong and that Northerners are no more or less honorable than the rest of the world and that honor as quality is something that varies from person to person.

The very first question we need to ask how we got that impression. Well, the answer is very simple and known to all – Ned Stark. Our wrong idea about Northerners came from the fact that one of the most honorable characters in the series is Northerner who has some negative POV on certain individuals from the South. Introductory bias here is very simple and powerful. At the beginning of the series, Ned is presented and later proven as deeply honorable man, while Lannisters who became representatives of the South are cunning, ambitious and purely evil. The confrontations between these two families mirrored actual North vs. South confrontation, where most readers sided with those proud, honorable people from the North. Even though we can say without any doubt that Ned was indeed honorable man, the truth about whole region is much different.

As I said before, honor as virtue varies from person to person. It is something implemented from the earliest age and as a code we abide to it. But, regardless of what honor truly represents, we can’t assess entire nations as honorable or dishonorable. Simply, the world doesn’t function that way and the generalizations of that sort brought many blood and pain to the world.

But this deeply incorporated thought of Northern honor won’t disappear just because I say that it is mere generalization based on the impression we got from one man. In order to make my point, I will analyze the Northerners and show many instances where their behavior in fact is not honorable at all. By doing that, I hope I will point out the inherently flawed conclusion we got from Ned regarding Northerners as a group of people with high code of honor. So, let we begin:

1. House Stark

Starks of Winterfell has governed North for thousands of years and certainly had entire array of different people. In one of his first POV chapters, Ned Stark thinks of Kings in the North as far different people than he is, talking about them as being “harsh as the land they ruled”. Harshness certainly doesn’t mean dishonor by default, but have rather cruel and uncompromising connotation and is not something we immediately connect with honor. Also, later we find out that Starks usually remained in the North rarely involving the Southern businesses and that they are not some keen and good players of Game of thrones. Being bad in the Game is something usually honorable people are, but that is also one of the misconceptions. Just look at Cersei. She is bad in playing the Game as poor Ned Stark was, but their senses of honor are completely incomparable. But, back to the Starks and examples where they behaved not according to the honor we believe they possess by birth:

Kings and Lords in the North – not much is known about Kings and later Lords of the North. Until WOIAF comes out, we can only guess whether they were honorable or not, but the nicknames some of them were known are rather troublesome: The Hungry Wolf has a connotation of someone who is vicious and cruel, The Bitter also doesn’t have positive sound, The Bridegroom can relate to possible First Night practice, although it is only a guess. That’s not much given the period Starks ruled North, but again, at this moment, we can’t know for sure whether these are the only examples of possibly dishonorable Stark Kings.

Rickard Stark – According to Lady Dustin, Rickard had Southorn Ambitions, which is not something we could deny since he was planning to become in-laws with two Great Houses of Westeros. We should also mention the possibility that House Stark was perhaps at Harrenhal due to Rhaegar’s possible desire to organize coup d’état against his father. We also don’t know for this, but one thing can’t be denied. Rickard was ambitious man, not necessarily in bed way, but nonetheless the possibility for him plotting against his King does exist.

Brandon Stark – Brandon is also a mystery for us. Ned talked about him as hotheaded young men, but Lady Dustin casted another light on him. Describing him as the man “not being shy about things he wanted”, there are many things that come to mind, from being open-minded to rather sinister thoughts about him being forceful to women he liked. He certainly dishonored Lord Ryswell by taking maidenhead of his daughter, and even though Barbery’s father would gladly serve his daughter to heir of Winterfell, fact is that he never asked for permission. Then we have entire Ashara situation, where out of three Stark boys, he is the one most likely that has dishonored her, and in a way broke his vow to Catelyn. One could even argue that since he was present at Harrenhal tourney, his father informed him about possible coup, but that is only guessing. Lastly, his outburst in King’s Landing, although perfectly understanding, was neither smart nor thought through. All in all, when it comes to Brandon’s honor, fact is that he is in the grey area.

Benjen Stark – Once again, we have only guesses. Many theorized that Benjen’s enrollment in NW was due to the guilt he felt over keeping Lyanna’s secret. We don’t know for certain, but if he did know, he could have stopped many deaths.

Lyanna Stark – Lyanna’s story is one of the most analyzed on the boards. If we are to believe in R+L=J, Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar leaving quite the mess behind her. That act alone is dishonorable towards her family and her fiancée, even though it was probably done out of love.

Ned’s children – All 6 of Ned’s children (I also included Jon in this group) are too young to be judged fairly. Perhaps we can do that for Jon and Robb. Robb broke his vows two times – first to the King on Iron Throne and later to Walder Frey. He paid for that by the gruesome death. Jon has also done some things which he considered to be dishonorable, but the absolution comes not only from his consciousness, but also from the fact he was ordered to do certain things. Later with Stannis, Jon also crosses the line many times and does some things that are against the vows and policy of NW. Sansa did very same thing as Lyanna, and Arya has done some questionable things in order to survive. People also find Bran’s skinchanging into Hodor as dishonorable act.

And even though the conclusion may be that Starks are not so bad, nor that much dishonorable, the fact is that they are versatile group of people without some inherently given sense of honor. And that is far more different than the image we got from Ned.

2. The rest of the North

House Bolton – Needless to say, the Boltons are as far as it can be from the honorable men. As historically we know, their practice was flaying people and wearing the cloaks made of their skin. They practiced the First Night centuries after its abolition and they still flayed the men even though it was prohibited. What Roose and Ramsay did can in no way get anywhere near honorable, since the cunning nature of Roose and Ramsay’s viciousness made of them some of the most dishonorable men in Westeros.

Jorah Mormont – As a slave trader, traitor and a spy, he doesn't qualify for the honorable man.

Rickard Karstark – In his moment of grief, he committed dishonorable act of killing two innocent boys for which he is later punished.

Arnolf Karstark – Plotting against Stannis while being in his camp. Dishonorable act by definition.

Wyman Manderly – As much as his loyalty to the Starks is honorable, feeding the enemies with the human pies is something that is far from honorable.

Barbery Dustin – The thing about Lady Dustin is that we are not sure whether she meant everything she said to Theon. If she did, she is spiteful old lady without one honorable bone in her body. If she played Theon, well, she is a good player and someone whose honor can be questioned in different ways.

Hother “Whorsebane” Umber – killed a whore who tried to rob him while studying in the Citadel

These are just some of the examples of how divergent Northerners are. We should add Skagosi cannibalism and Crannongmen using poisoned arrows, but those are more cultural characteristics seen as dishonorable by some. Also, we have to mention the soldiers pillaging the villages in Riverlands and Westerlands, stealing and sometimes even torturing the commonfolk, Nevertheless, for every dishonorable character, there is one honorable. Brandon Stark was perhaps gigantic A-hole, but Ned is kind and good man. Jorah has one of the best fathers in Jeor, Wyman has proud, loyal and fearsome granddaughters. Karstark sons died defending Robb and Barbery’s husband defending Ned. GreatJon is also one of the most loyal characters out there. And that is what North truly is all about. Just as any region, North has many different people of whom some are good, some are bad. And no generalization can be correct once we acknowledge that every man, woman and child is a story for themselves and that they should be judged by that, not by where they have come from.

[Mad Monkey]

I always thought that Ned's personality was from being raised Jon "As High As Honor" Arryn, not from the Northern culture.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I always thought that Ned's personality was from being raised Jon "As High As Honor" Arryn, not from the Northern culture.

Exactly. Except many people seem to ignore this.

[Mladen]

I always thought that Ned's personality was from being raised Jon "As High As Honor" Arryn, not from the Northern culture.

Me too, especially when you see how striking the differences are between him and his brother and sister.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I for one believe that the Kings of Winter were far from honourable. In fact I think that a lot of them were straight up tyrants. No offense to the original Starks, but I hardly doubt they held 8000 years of reign if they were bunch of Neds.

[Fat Mac]

Great topic, and I completely agree.

As mentioned above, Ned likely got his sense of honor from Jon Arryn, who seems to be the main father figure in Ned's life (though to be fair we don't know his relationship with Rickard)

Needless to say, honor is not a trait that is inherent. Some people are honorable, some are not, no matter where they came from.

Again, great post Mladen :thumbsup:

[Tyrus Martell]

I'm going to find textual quotes of the multiple times characters who Arya, Brienne and Jaime encounter in the Riverlands inform them that Northern men or "Wolves" prowl the Riverlands and rape, pillage and murder.

They're just as guilty as the rest of the broken men, sellswords, Lannisters and 'King's Men' who participated in TWot5Ks.

Perhaps the best example that comes to mind are those eight Northmen who were chained up inhumanely in Stony Sept by the Mad Huntsmen, for raping and killing the smallfolk.

[MyaStoned]

The idea that it's a myth is belied by the unnaturally strong bond of loyalty so many families (really all but the Boltons and stray individuals in other families) feel for the Starks. If the Starks were cruel tyrants, or no better than anybody else, why such intense loyalty? "Oh, they gave them lands thousands of years ago." That isn't enough to explain it. It's clearly something stronger than just a sense of debt. The Starks are honorable and the protectors of honor. "When a Stark was in Winterfell, a maid could walk safe..."

And I know you referred to The North, but your post specifically went after the Starks and said Ned was a freak. The text strongly implies otherwise.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

I made a cuple of threads a little related to this some time ago, and one of the main topics I remember was the myth that North remembers the "old ways" and care about the NW and the wall...

A brief check shows that unlist 80% of the known members of the NW are southeners, which shows Northener Lords are not caring much about it.

Then, we also see during ADOD that the North still had plenty of human resources when Aemon cryed for help, but none of their chiefs gave a damn. Clans had 3000 men really close, Karstarks 700 and Umbers enough to play in both sides...and lets not even talk about Manderly.

I always find amusing GreatJon independence speech, when he asks why Stannis (or Renly) should rule him when they do not know nothing about the NW, the Wall or the Wolves forest. Its funny, now that he is imprisoned thanks to his southern ambitious, that Stannis saved the wall, his own Umbers land and keep from a wilding invasion, and is now in the said forest, trying to free WF and Neds girl.

[The Wolves]

I for one believe that the Kings of Winter were far from honourable. In fact I think that a lot of them were straight up tyrants. No offense to the original Starks, but I hardly doubt they held 8000 years of reign if they were bunch of Neds.

I agree and in Ned's first chapter while in the crypts with Robert he seemed to fear the the Kings of Winter saying that they were harsh men who bowed to no one.

They were ruthless you would have to be to reign over a huge region for 8000 years

[ARYa_Nym]

There's also Artos the Implacable.

im·plac·a·ble

imˈplakəbəl/

adjective

adjective: implacable

1.

unable to be placated.

"he was an implacable enemy of Ted's"

synonyms:

unappeasable, unforgiving, unsparing; More

Unforgiving is actually an Arya trait.

Of course it's not said that he did anything dishonorable considering he slew his brother's killer during battle.

Revenge is also not exempt from Northerners considering the North Remembers. Edmure wanted Robb to pardon Lord Karstark (show mercy) but Robb said:

“…Harrion…could never openly forgive his father’s killer. His own men would turn on him. These are northmen, Uncle. The north remembers.”

In Bran's flashback the woman emerges from WF's pools and asks for sons to avenge her.

Vengeance is not justice so I guess it can be said to be a dishonorable trait.

But anyways, in the flash back they seemed to engage in human sacrifice.

[Mladen]

And I know you referred to The North, but your post specifically went after the Starks and said Ned was a freak. The text strongly implies otherwise.

I referred to entire North and Starks, last time I checked are from the North. And the text strongly implies Ned indeed is exception...

I for one believe that the Kings of Winter were far from honourable. In fact I think that a lot of them were straight up tyrants. No offense to the original Starks, but I hardly doubt they held 8000 years of reign if they were bunch of Neds.

I agree... Ned wasn't able to keep his position on Court for entire year...

[MyaStoned]

If Ned is such an exception, and the Starks were such cruel tyrants, then surely the North would be glad to be rid of them. If only we had a series of books to show us if they are...

[ARYa_Nym]

Oh, and imagine if we were given the POV of the Marsh daughter when King Rickard Stark killed her father then married her? The Starks would seem like Lannisters.

[Mladen]

If Ned is such an exception, and the Starks were such cruel tyrants, then surely the North would be glad to be rid of them. If only we had a series of books to show us if they are...

Ned personally talks about how he is much different than Kings in the North. So, the books were rather explicit in making the distinction between Ned and generations of Starks.

[A Bastard Snow]

Its a harsh land and it takes force to rule it.The entire history of the north is them being invaded by everyone.They haven't gone a generation without having some lord rebel or the ironborn/freefolk invading them.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And I know you referred to The North, but your post specifically went after the Starks and said Ned was a freak. The text strongly implies otherwise.

If you were to do a post about Dorne, Stormlands or the Westernlands then the primary sources will be Martell, Barathon and Lannister as that is who George has shown us.

[Mladen]

Revenge is also not exempt from Northerners considering the North Remembers.

I always considered "North remembers" as the other side of the coin on which on the other side is written "Lannister pays his debt"

[Señor de la Tormenta]

The last two houses that fought for Robb Stark and his memory were not up north.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

If Ned is such an exception, and the Starks were such cruel tyrants, then surely the North would be glad to be rid of them. If only we had a series of books to show us if they are...

I said that original starks a.k.a the Kings of Winter could be tyrants. I don't think they were called Kings of Winter if they weren't the embodiment of the North. Cold and harsh. In fact Ned recalls when he goes deeper into the crypts of Starks he feels that the kings are looking at him with cold eyes. That should tell you they were very different compared to honourable Neddie.