Deconstructing the myth about Northern honor

[Señor de la Tormenta]

I always considered "North remembers" as the other side of the coin on which on the other side is written "Lannister pays his debt"

The North remembers....only when it fits them.

[RK Rajagopal]

To add another example, if you believe Roose Bolton, both the Boltons and the Umbers kept up the tradition of the "First Night" even after it was outlawed.

[MyaStoned]

Ned personally talks about how he is much different than Kings in the North. So, the books were rather explicit in making the distinction between Ned and generations of Starks.

Then why the loyalty? Surely Manderly would make a move all on his own, or just use Rickon as a pawn to take the North for himself - do you think though that that's what will happen if he gets Rickon? I don't. At most we expect he'll try to use his good turn to the Starks to enhance his family's standing.

And what of the mountain clans? Surely these rural, isolated people must be glad of their independence after millenia of Stark oppression. Same with the Mormonts. And yet...

Or how about the Wall (and beyond the Wall), where the Starks are held in extremely high regard?

Boy, lotta Stockholm Syndrome going on up North.

[Rickeen Stark]

Ned was also harsh when it came to justice; well, perhaps harsh is not the correct word. The law was the law. He was well respected by his banner men, so I assume he was doing things in a very northern way. They are cold, sometimes harsh, but overall solid if they are to survive the harsh weather. Ned being raised by Jon Arryn certainly would have impacted his personality, as he seems rather zealous on the whole honour thing. However, he wasn't too southern, as his banner men still adored him.

[MyaStoned]

I said that original starks a.k.a the Kings of Winter could be tyrants. I don't think they were called Kings of Winter if they weren't the embodiment of the North. Cold and harsh. In fact Ned recalls when he goes deeper into the crypts of Starks he feels that the kings are looking at him with cold eyes. That should tell you they were very different compared to honourable Neddie.

Cold and harsh, and even cruel =/= dishonorable. Or have you not met Stannis?

[Queen Sansa Stark]

A little question how many times did the Boltons rebell throughout history?

[the gods of old]

The perception that northerners are more honorable than southerners can be summarized in two words: Guest Right

[Señor de la Tormenta]

To add another example, if you believe Roose Bolton, both the Boltons and the Umbers kept up the tradition of the "First Night" even after it was outlawed.

The northeners are asking Stannis to execute Theon for his "crimes" inspite the fact they know he didnt kill Bran (Liddle that meets them, and others that Bran sees warging Summer) and that he didnt burnt WF (survivors of the battle of WF that joined Stannis, mentioned in his letter to Jon).

[Fat Mac]

Then why the loyalty? Surely Manderly would make a move all on his own, or just use Rickon as a pawn to take the North for himself - do you think though that that's what will happen if he gets Rickon? I don't. At most we expect he'll try to use his good turn to the Starks to enhance his family's standing.

And what of the mountain clans? Surely these rural, isolated people must be glad of their independence after millenia of Stark oppression. Same with the Mormonts. And yet...

Or how about the Wall (and beyond the Wall), where the Starks are held in extremely high regard?

Boy, lotta Stockholm Syndrome going on up North.

Loads of bannermen are loyal to their liege. The Lannister men have shown nothing but loyalty, even after Tywin's death. The Arryn men are loyal to a fault to an 8 year old sick boy. Stannis' men will (and have) followed him to hell and back.

You can be genuinely loyal, even if your liege isn't necessarily the nicest person around.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Great thread, agree with everything.

The Greystarks, a Stark cadet branch, joined the Boltons in a rebellion against the Starks. For this, the Starks extinguished them.

Someone else mentioned that the Umbers still practice the first night.

Also, I feel the need to point out that Northern warriors are just as cocky and full of themselves as Southern knights.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I think that some people here have a classical case of Northern Superiority :lol:

[Mladen]

Then why the loyalty? Surely Manderly would make a move all on his own, or just use Rickon as a pawn to take the North for himself - do you think though that that's what will happen if he gets Rickon? I don't. At most we expect he'll try to use his good turn to the Starks to enhance his family's standing.

And what of the mountain clans? Surely these rural, isolated people must be glad of their independence after millenia of Stark oppression. Same with the Mormonts. And yet...

Or how about the Wall (and beyond the Wall), where the Starks are held in extremely high regard?

Boy, lotta Stockholm Syndrome going on up North.

Oh Dear God, we are not talking about Stark Oppression here. We are just talking that the conclusion that entire North and all the Northerners in history were like Ned is completely flawed. And we have been, I repeat for the second time to you, explicitly told that by Ned himself. Starks defended their people from wildlings, Southern kingdoms like Vale, Ironborn. When Manderlys spoke about Starks, it wasn't about their honor, but about the vows they have taken and the debt they owe to Starks.

A little question how many times did the Boltons rebell throughout history?

I would say many times... Not sure how many times exactly. I know someone said something like "Gods know how many Kings they (Boltons) flayed"

The perception that northerners are more honorable than southerners can be summarized in two words: Guest Right

WRONG. We see the same reaction on the South as we see it on the North. Riverlords are disgusted by Freys, Vale lords too, Arianne even reproached to Doran that he had offered her to "even" Walder Frey

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Then why the loyalty? Surely Manderly would make a move all on his own, or just use Rickon as a pawn to take the North for himself - do you think though that that's what will happen if he gets Rickon? I don't. At most we expect he'll try to use his good turn to the Starks to enhance his family's standing.

And what of the mountain clans? Surely these rural, isolated people must be glad of their independence after millenia of Stark oppression. Same with the Mormonts. And yet...

Or how about the Wall (and beyond the Wall), where the Starks are held in extremely high regard?

Boy, lotta Stockholm Syndrome going on up North.

You can see it both ways...those Clans or Mormonts did nothing when Aemon cryed for help, let crippled 8 years old Bran trough his lands in a suicide mission to the Lands of Always Winter, and didnt move a muscle to straight things up until Stannis showed up.

[MyaStoned]

Loads of bannermen are loyal to their liege. The Lannister men have shown nothing but loyalty, even after Tywin's death. The Arryn men are loyal to a fault to an 8 year old sick boy. Stannis' men will (and have) followed him to hell and back.

You can be genuinely loyal, even if your liege isn't necessarily the nicest person around.

This goes beyond that. The Starks are gone. Do you think the bannermen of other houses would bend over backwards to save them should they basically disappear and leave a power vacuum? I don't. I think they'd try to fill it themselves. Not so in the North.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

What can I say? I'm from the southern part of the globe.

I always thought that Ned's personality was from being raised Jon "As High As Honor" Arryn, not from the Northern culture.

Ned took notes while Robert slept (with whores).

[MyaStoned]

You can see it both ways...those Clans or Mormonts did nothing when Aemon cryed for help, let crippled 8 years old Bran trough his lands in a suicide mission to the Lands of Always Winter, and didnt move a muscle to straight things up until Stannis showed up.

Bran would have asked for help if he'd wanted it. That they let him go rather than kidnap him and try to use him for political advantage is another point in the North's favor. And for the rest, they're all at war in large numbers and their lord has just been slaughtered. They're in disarray. Stannis doing something remarkable does not reflect poorly on those who did not do something remarkable.

[Rickeen Stark]

And who are you, the proud lord said; that I must bow so low!

Only a wolf of a different coat, that's all the truth I know.

In a coat of white, or a coat of black; a wolf still has claws.

And mine are long and sharp, my lord. As long and sharp as yours!

The Starks did a similar thing that Tywin Lannister did. Was it honourable? Nah. But it was effective. Honour is a very thin; and somewhat foolish belief people have in the series. It is honourable to respect and follow your liege lord, yet, we see some kind of worship towards Ned. He was well liked I believe, because he was fair. So I agree with the OP, in the sense that he was different. Old Starks and most of the North, not as honourable and should not be romanticized.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Bran would have asked for help if he'd wanted it. That they let him go rather than kidnap him and try to use him for political advantage is another point in the North's favor.

He is eight years old. Nine at best. Crippled and wants to see something in the other side of the wall in the middle of a full wilding attack....right....

A Marbrand or a Craekhall are now letting Tommen to set sails to Valyria.

[MyaStoned]

He is eight years old. Nine at best. Crippled and wants to see something in the other side of the wall in the middle of a full wilding attack....right....

He's their liege lord. You don't stop him and take him in. He's not some neighbor kid.

[The Wolves]

You can see it both ways...those Clans or Mormonts did nothing when Aemon cryed for help, let crippled 8 years old Bran trough his lands in a suicide mission to the Lands of Always Winter, and didnt move a muscle to straight things up until Stannis showed up.

The North does have 8000 years of history going to the Night Watch's aid when it needed it