Heresy 108

[#Fire and Blood]

My motto is Hear me roar, so free speech, but look out for Blood&Fire and Ours is the Fury.

Your not talking about me are you??? :dunno:

[Mace Cooterian]

Would you mind elaborating on this theory? I was under the impression that Rhaegar's death was not in question. He was killed by Robert at the Trident, no? In the midst of a large battle, with many witnesses... and Robert had such a hatred for the guy, surely he double checked to see he was dead. Am I missing something?

Those who subscribe to the RT=MR (or is it MR=RT...I can never remember) theory is that whoever Robert Baratheon killed with his war hammer was under a glamour, as evidence by the scattering of rubies from Rhaegar armor into the Trident. The real Rhaegar Targaryan is still living as Mance Raydar. Those theorists also tout the black robe with red silk that Mance wears as further evidence that Mance is....a dragon.

NOTE: I have not hitched my horse to this theory, so if I have misinterpreted something....sincere agologies.

[TheRatCook]

I didn't originally see the post that you were responding to, but there is a lot of interesting stuff there.

If you are looking at the ASOIAF tales as a loose retelling of Ragnorak, then Mance appears to be the Loki character. Both characters were raised amongst the enemy of their people. Also during Mance's glamoring his eyes change back and forth from brown to grey. This is reminiscent of several Norse tales where Loki's eyes change color, sometimes flickering red and green and on another occasion when he is trying to convince Thor to let him accompany him to Utgard, his eyes flicker from brown to green to indigo.

In the Prose Edda, it is said that Loki stands at the helm of Naglfar (ship of nails) with the people of Hel (presumably the people who have died and gone to Hel).

If the name can arguably be translated to "opening a way between two place" perhaps Mance's true motive is looking for a way for the Others and the Wights (the people of Hel?) to pass through the Wall and into Westeros.

I remember when Ragnorak was discussed and I need to re-read it.....but I was struck by the Bloodraven as Odin analogy. My strong suit is the classical wisdom traditions and Western esotericism...I need to read more Norse mythology.

I like the "opening of a way between two "places," translation. In another thread, we were discussing the possibility that the Lands of Always Winter/ the far North may be connected to Ashai....based on the silk on Mance's cloak, and Mel's assertion that the wall is a "hinge," of the world. But Mance claims he got the silk from a shipwreck, so its pure speculation. Your theory is probably closer to the truth.

What is the MR=RT theory all about? I didn't realize that it meant they literally are the same person....just that they represent the song of ice and fire. What evidence is there for MR=RT?

EDIT: Ok, I just saw the above post. That's interesting....doesn't Raeghar have a similar cloak with Ashai silk on it at Harrenhal? If MR=RT, then that is another motive for him to lie about where he got the silk. I'll have look up the threads on that one.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

This is great news for all of us who believe MR=RT and discussed the change of colour of his eyes as a huge obstacle.

ML - it was actually during the MR=RT discussion on the Curious Case thread that I made that "traveler of the left-hand path" post. Probably should have posted it to that thread, actually - it struck me as an intriguing explanation for Rhaegar's possible flight from glory and his apparent abandonment of his friends, family, and kingdom. Basically, it works to the extent that Rhaegar and Mance are foils - opposite sides of the coin (as Illyrio points out to Tyrion, the king on one side, death's head on the other) that he might have given up the path of honor, justice, and duty... and instead taken a darker path in pursuit of his prophecy.

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[The Snowfyre Chorus]

What is the MR=RT theory all about? I didn't realize that it meant they literally are the same person....just that they represent the song of ice and fire. What evidence is there for MR=RT?

That probably depends on who you ask. I'm not all that confident it can work, but I like the idea. As I've said elsewhere, if Martin did leave himself enough room to pull it off, it could be huge...

[Modesty Lannister]

Your not talking about me are you??? :dunno:

No. You are Fire and Blood, not Fire&Blood. Really, no. Just quoting other mottos.

[Lord Dwee]

Coldhands is a mystery, but I think he is very old also. I would also like to see Benjen in the prologue of tWoW. Then he dies.

Or a look at Benjen in the land of always winter via bran and Weirwood net.

[Modesty Lannister]

I remember when Ragnorak was discussed and I need to re-read it.....but I was struck by the Bloodraven as Odin analogy. My strong suit is the classical wisdom traditions and Western esotericism...I need to read more Norse mythology.

I like the "opening of a way between two "places," translation. In another thread, we were discussing the possibility that the Lands of Always Winter/ the far North may be connected to Ashai....based on the silk on Mance's cloak, and Mel's assertion that the wall is a "hinge," of the world. But Mance claims he got the silk from a shipwreck, so its pure speculation. Your theory is probably closer to the truth.

What is the MR=RT theory all about? I didn't realize that it meant they literally are the same person....just that they represent the song of ice and fire. What evidence is there for MR=RT?

EDIT: Ok, I just saw the above post. That's interesting....doesn't Raeghar have a similar cloak with Ashai silk on it at Harrenhal? If MR=RT, then that is another motive for him to lie about where he got the silk. I'll have look up the threads on that one.

Since I am into MR=RT theory and would NOT want to burden this thread with it, if you read my posts, they will lead you to appropriate threads. Your input is very valuable. It gave me some ideas about the ToJ.

EDIT: omitted NOT, sorry

[Modesty Lannister]

ML - it was actually during the MR=RT discussion on the Curious Case thread that I made that "traveler of the left-hand path" post. Probably should have posted it to that thread, actually - it struck me as an intriguing explanation for Rhaegar's possible flight from glory and his apparent abandonment of his friends, family, and kingdom. Basically, it works to the extent that Rhaegar and Mance are foils - opposite sides of the coin (as Illyrio points out to Tyrion, the king on one side, death's head on the other) that he might have given up the path of honor, justice, and duty... and instead taken a darker path in pursuit of his prophecy.

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I wouldn't say darker, because I see nothing dark about MR so far, but certainly more difficult. "You have to go east to go west" kind of thing. Real shame you didn't post it on that thread.

[TheRatCook]

Since I am into MR=RT theory and would want to burden this thread with it, if you read my posts, they will lead you to appropriate threads. Your input is very valuable. It gave me some ideas about the ToJ.

Thanks...I'll look them up.

[wolfmaid7]

ML - it was actually during the MR=RT discussion on the Curious Case thread that I made that "traveler of the left-hand path" post. Probably should have posted it to that thread, actually - it struck me as an intriguing explanation for Rhaegar's possible flight from glory and his apparent abandonment of his friends, family, and kingdom. Basically, it works to the extent that Rhaegar and Mance are foils - opposite sides of the coin (as Illyrio points out to Tyrion, the king on one side, death's head on the other) that he might have given up the path of honor, justice, and duty... and instead taken a darker path in pursuit of his prophecy.

.

I did a piece on Jon's journey on the left-hand path and even dropped Jaime on it as well.Seeing R as possibly Mance on it is intriguing and if true it totally fits.

Also note Left hand magik and the left-hand path is predominantly used by those who follow the Dark Mother aka the Morrigan.

[MaesterSam]

Those who subscribe to the RT=MR (or is it MR=RT...I can never remember) theory is that whoever Robert Baratheon killed with his war hammer was under a glamour, as evidence by the scattering of rubies from Rhaegar armor into the Trident. The real Rhaegar Targaryan is still living as Mance Raydar. Those theorists also tout thTe black robe with red silk that Mance wears as further evidence that Mance is....a dragon.

NOTE: I have not hitched my horse to this theory, so if I have misinterpreted something....sincere agologies.

Thanks for clarifying. It certainly is a tempting theory, since there are a number of parallels. Aside from the black&red cloak, they also both like to sing, and play the harp. Mance likes to sing "the dornishman's wife", and Rhaegar had a Dornish wife. Both are charming and natural-born leaders. Rhaegar believed he had to be a warrior, and so he went North (where the threat is) and raised an army... The glamour could explain the difference in appearance, as well as (like you said) raising the possibility that someone other than Rhaegar was killed at the Trident.

I guess my main concern is that Mance grew up on the Wall, didn't he? So the NW brothers would have known him well, and it seems unlikely that he was living a double life in King's Landing and on the Wall as a child/teen. I would be more inclined to believe it if Mance just showed up at the Wall one day, shortly after the Rebellion.

I do love the idea of Mance as a Targaryen/dragon. They say he was the bastard son of a NW brother- what if his father was Bloodraven? Or Aemon?? No supporting evidence, I know, but also no evidence against it...

Or- super crackpot- what if Rhaegar did die at the Trident, but someone managed to resurrect him (such as BR, with or without help from the CotF) and he is Coldhands? And this is why his face is hidden, b/c he would be extremely recognizable?

[Modesty Lannister]

Thanks for clarifying. It certainly is a tempting theory, since there are a number of parallels. Aside from the black&red cloak, they also both like to sing, and play the harp. Mance likes to sing "the dornishman's wife", and Rhaegar had a Dornish wife. Both are charming and natural-born leaders. Rhaegar believed he had to be a warrior, and so he went North (where the threat is) and raised an army... The glamour could explain the difference in appearance, as well as (like you said) raising the possibility that someone other than Rhaegar was killed at the Trident.

I guess my main concern is that Mance grew up on the Wall, didn't he? So the NW brothers would have known him well, and it seems unlikely that he was living a double life in King's Landing and on the Wall as a child/teen. I would be more inclined to believe it if Mance just showed up at the Wall one day, shortly after the Rebellion.

I do love the idea of Mance as a Targaryen/dragon. They say he was the bastard son of a NW brother- what if his father was Bloodraven? Or Aemon?? No supporting evidence, I know, but also no evidence against it...

Or- super crackpot- what if Rhaegar did die at the Trident, but someone managed to resurrect him (such as BR, with or without help from the CotF) and he is Coldhands? And this is why his face is hidden, b/c he would be extremely recognizable?

I have a very similar theory. Check out "Curious Case of …" thread, the previous iteration. It was devoted to MR=RT. We discussed who would know Mance and how can such a cover story be constructed. Note that in the books, Jon learns that story from QH and no one else mentions it.

[JNR]

Never be afraid to post something... we will never discourage someone new asking about, for every person brings their own experiences and interpretations to the table, and any new voice could open up a new line of thinking that hadn't occurred to us before and could lead to a better understanding of the texts

And that's what makes Heresy the best thread on the site.

[wolfmaid7]

I have a theory as to why Haggon still remains in Varamyr's head: I believe it is because he ate his heart. I wrote it down in detail here :http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/22mnlr/spoilers_all_abomination_a_different_take_on/

And I believe it reasonates very well with other thoughts here in heresy. I did plan to write a second part to that theory trying to connect the dots between the Heart Tree, the Heart of Winter and the Burned Heart but haven't found the time yet (or motivation).

This is cool ,I missed that V6 had eaten Haggon's heart its a nice parallel to ancient magical rituals where eating the heart of your enemy would transfer his, powers, and memories to the one eating.

It still makes me wonder though where Haggon's spirit may have gone seeing ad V6 robbed him of the chance to go in his familiar.

[Frey family reunion]

I see a number of practical problems with the Mance is Rhaegar theory: first and foremost, Mance and his history is known by the Nightswatch, and Rhaegar and his history is known by, well almost everyone. They appear to have led lives on each end of Westeros at the same time.

The second practical problem I see is Robert's hammer smashing into Rhaegar's chest. Not exactly an off screen death.

Now I do think, however, that GRRM is intentionally drawing parallels between Mance and Rhaegar. Now whether this is providing us a clue about Jon's lineage, or something else I'm not sure.

The red silk into the black cloak may prove to have an ulterior meaning other than it happening to be House Targaryen's color scheme. We get the same image when Moqorro is fished out of the sea. His red robe is replaced with a black Kraken sail.

We also have the image in ASOS of Beric Dondarrian as the "scarecrow". In the same book, the Nightswatchmen put up scarecrows along the Wall dressed up as members of the Nightswatch. They even name them after deceased brothers in black.

My take is we are getting some foreshadowing of the Nightswatch being killed and then "reborn" as being of fire much akin to Beric Dondarrion. (which would be the perfect way to battle White Walkers by the way).

[Jojen]

Agreed, to an extent. The physical descriptions of MR and RT don't match, unless Mance is under a glamour. But why would he need to hide his face from the Wildlings, who likely never saw and therefore wouldn't recognize him as a Targ? Plus, I'm not sure but I don't think the timelines match up anyway.

If he was one of Craster's sons, how did he avoid being handed over to the WW, and how did he end up with the NW?

The red in his cloak may just be a red herring, so to speak. I don't think it has much if anything to do with Jon.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Don't feel like using the quote on them, but I also agree with what Frey family reunion and Jojen stated above with regards to the Mance as Rhaegar theory

[Phillip Frye]

Maybe Lady Other a.k.a. the corpse queen gave the Night King a cold kiss when he gave his soul. And without a soul he can die but can't go completely - Coldhands.

I get the impression that the NIght's King is the odds-on favorite of people on the boards for being the identity of Coldhands, beating out Benjen. However, if Coldhands was once the Night's King, then why obscure his face with a scarf? The 8,000 year old Stark look?

[Phillip Frye]

Let's all pray that he passes his final exams next month, or he will have more time for his B.S. I am surprised to see an association with an actual university. I had estimated his age at fourteen years, based upon his proficiency with the English language.