Heresy 108

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

On the latter he means:

last week vs 9 days. ;)

:agree: He was definitely referring to the contradictory timelines. I understand GRRM making mistakes, occasionally being inconsistent. But in the same chapter? In the prologue to Book 1? Seriously? That's crazy... has he addressed this anywhere?

Do we know how many days are in a Westeros week?

I did a search for "week" in AGOT, and came up with nothing helpful. Believe it or not, a search for the word "week" in book 3 (ASOS) turned up no results. Maybe I oughta double check that. It seems highly unlikely...

ETA: Re-searched ASOS... turns out the word "week" is used... once. Tyrion refers to some of Littlefinger's financial ventures as smelling "worse that week-old fish." So, not helpful. Anyway... Martin doesn't seem to have defined the duration of a Planetosi "week" in his books. If he's addressed this issue specifically in his interviews, I haven't seen it. Though I seem to recall that he confirmed the fact that 1 Planetos Year = 1 Earth Year, in spite of the seasons. So perhaps it is not unreasonable to assume the same should be true of the week. (This would not, however, resolve the contradiction in timelines presented in AGOT prologue. it would only confirm it.)

[redriver]

Using magic to make a tsunami (or whatever the hammer was) & somehow you get a bunch of magical, humanoid shaped, sword bearing, armor wearing, ice beings to deal with...

Somehow, I have higher expectations of GRRM than this...

Such as?

[Modesty Lannister]

:agree: He was definitely referring to the contradictory timelines. I understand GRRM making mistakes, occasionally being inconsistent. But in the same chapter? In the prologue to Book 1? Seriously? That's crazy... has he addressed this anywhere?

I did a search for "week" in AGOT, and came up with nothing helpful. Believe it or not, a search for the word "week" in book 3 (ASOS) turned up no results. Maybe I oughta double check that. It seems highly unlikely...

ETA: Re-searched ASOS... turns out the word "week" is used... once. Tyrion refers to some of Littlefinger's financial ventures as smelling "worse that week-old fish." So, not helpful. Anyway... Martin doesn't seem to have defined the duration of a Planetosi "week" in his books. If he's addressed this issue specifically in his interviews, I haven't seen it. Though I seem to recall that he confirmed the fact that 1 Planetos Year = 1 Earth Year, in spite of the seasons. So perhaps it is not unreasonable to assume the same should be true of the week. (This would not, however, resolve the contradiction in timelines presented in AGOT prologue. it would only confirm it.)

I saw a GRRM interview where he said "a day is a day, a week is a week, but the year is different from ours". Paraphrasing of course.

[addicted to snow]

I think Coldhands was a wighted but he took his body back. The theory is dependent on Coldhands being a skinchanger, which is borne out by his control of the elk. We really don't know what happens if a skinchanger's body is reanimated since Varamyr chose to inhabit One-Eye and live out his second life in the wolf. But since the ability to skinchange lies in the body of the skinchanger than if that body is now 'alive' again does the ability to skinchange still exist? I think it does and that the agent that reanimates the wights can be fought (see Thistle still struggling and fighting after Varamyr leaves her body.) A skinchanger can then theoretically go back and fight for his own skin/body the way Varamyr fought Haggon and ousted him from his second life in his wolf.

How was Coldhands controlling the elk while his own body was in a conscious state? We haven't seen any other Wargs / Skinchangers who could do this.

Perhaps both Coldhands & the elk are being controlled by other character(s).

[Modesty Lannister]

I think the number of the Others and the number of slaves are related. The legend of the Faceless Men tells us slaves wish for death. That's what a slave told Dany when she tried to help him in Astapor. The Others are death-bringers. So, by liberating the slaves, Dany is unwittingly fighting the Others already by changing men's wish for death to their wish for life. Thoughts?

[Yield.]

How was Coldhands controlling the elk while his own body was in a conscious state? We haven't seen any other Wargs / Skinchangers who could do this.

Perhaps both Coldhands & the elk are being controlled by other character(s).

The same way Robb controlled Greywind, Sansa with Lady, Rickon with Shaggy, Arya with Nymeria and Jon with Ghost. None of them had to slip the skin of their familiars in order to get them to do what they wanted. As far as we know none of them can/could actively slip into their animals at will but yet the they act in concert. Also we see with Jon that he can see, hear and smell stronger when he touches Ghost, so there is an element of shared consciousness without losing

consciousness.

I am not sure if Coldhands is being controlled in the sense of say BR actively being in him and CH just being a shell because if say he was, then why does he have to talk with the ravens? If it's all BR in the elk the ravens and in CH there would be no need for verbal communications no?

[Adam de Felden]

Hello folks; i have some ideas about the others that I would like to share, I have not however read all the threads of Heresy. Is it okay to post, or will I be jumped upon and murdered for saying something already said?

Thank in advance for your reply

[Modesty Lannister]

Hello folks; i have some ideas about the others that I would like to share, I have not however read all the threads of Heresy. Is it okay to post, or will I be jumped upon and murdered for saying something already said?

Thank in advance for your reply

My motto is Hear me roar, so free speech, but look out for Blood&Fire and Ours is the Fury.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Hello folks; i have some ideas about the others that I would like to share, I have not however read all the threads of Heresy. Is it okay to post, or will I be jumped upon and murdered for saying something already said?

Thank in advance for your reply

Never be afraid to post something. If it has already bee discussed with significant conclusions, one of us old timers will elaborate on those conclusions. If it was something that was effectively tabled, 1) it will always come back up again and 2) one of my comrades who is better at keeping track than I will be able to direct you to an appropriate thread where it was already discussed. Even if it is a topic that has been discussed to death, we will never discourage someone new asking about, for every person brings their own experiences and interpretations to the table, and any new voice could open up a new line of thinking that hadn't occurred to us before and could lead to a better understanding of the texts

[Jojen]

I am not sure if Coldhands is being controlled in the sense of say BR actively being in him and CH just being a shell because if say he was, then why does he have to talk with the ravens? If it's all BR in the elk the ravens and in CH there would be no need for verbal communications no?

I don't think he's being controlled by BR. He seems to have his own personality that's different than BR's, which suggests to me that he's more in control of himself. We don't know the extent of BR's warging abilities yet. If BR is controlling him, then why wouldn't he just say so? If he isn't, then he may be following Haggon's rule of not warging another person. Although I suppose you could bend the rules if said person was deceased.

[Yield.]

Anybody else seen this on the News page over in All Sorts of Weird Stuff? Seem TRJS is at it again and from the looks of it will not stop.

• Jonathan Snow · University of North Texas

  The Real Jon Snow approves of this but not of you board moderator Mormont. He is officially a troll with 30,000 posts. #185 see this post
  
  asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/106011-syrio-forel-is-not-dead/page-10
  
  asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/106404-give-me-two-cups-of-gold-and-lions-blood/
  
  If you want to continue to allow your mods to prevent me from joining in on the discussion that is fine. But I am going to keep coming back to let my voice be heard. Hear Me Roar.

  Reply · · 2 hours ago
• Jonathan Snow · University of North Texas

  Ha ha ha. And now the evidence has mysteriously disappeared? Mormont is a pathetic waste of internet space as well and Angalin, Stubby and Datepalm. Get some people who actually know these books like Linda and yourself running your website, not assholes. For a good time call 8675309. Jenny's Song was explained and was promptly removed for what reason? I don't expect you to ever respond back to me but The Real Jon Snow will return to the forum's with a vengeance. Winter is coming...

Anyhow in other news an except from The World of Ice and Fire has been put up at Martin's website. Haven't got the time to read it now but it looks interesting. Mainly about Aegon the Conqueror.

[wolfmaid7]

Oh my gosh is this guy for fracking serious!!!!! He has 8 topics all on just clogging up the Dance page.Anyone got a cure for him?

[TheRatCook]

MANCE RAYDER ~ "Traveler of the Left-handed Path?"

(Just food for thought...)

-----

mancinism (n.) "left-handedness," 1890, from Italian mancinissmo, from mancino "infirm (in the hand)," from manco, from Latin mancus "maimed, infirm, crippled, lame-handed" (see manque).

Latin Etymology - from Proto-Indo-European *man-ko (maimed in the hand), from *man-. [Cognates include Old Norse mund (hand) and Icelandic mund.]

Adjective - mancus m (feminine manca, neuter mancum); first/second declension

- maimed, crippled, infirm

- defective, imperfect

-----

road (n.) Etymology:

Old English rad "riding expedition, journey, hostile incursion," from Proto-Germanic *raido (cognates: Old Frisian red "ride," Old Saxon reda, Middle Dutch rede, Old High German reita "foray, raid"), from PIE *reidh- "to ride" (see ride (v.)).

Also related to raid (n.). In Middle English, "a riding, a journey;" sense of "open way for traveling between two places" is first recorded 1590s. Meaning "narrow stretch of sheltered water" is from early 14c. (e.g. Hampton Roads in Virginia).

Bit late responding to the suggestion that Mance is a Left-hand path practitioner, which he may be. But I find the idea somewhat incompatible with Dalla and Val's warnings to Jon that sorcery is like a sword without a hilt...that there is no safe way to hold it.

Left-hand path stuff, even high left hand path stuff IS actually a form of sorcery because of the emphasis on manipulation in order to get what one wants, ego and personal power, or getting others to carry out your will. Left-hand path symbolism has to do with yin, what is hidden, the moon, etc.

Lower level left-hand path practitioners focus more on carnality, personal survival and the ego as the highest good. High left-hand path practitioners put more emphasis on the balance between light and dark, and spiritual aspects, like Manicheanism.

Left-hand path practitioners do perform a type of grey or black magic, albeit one that doesn't involve the same level of karmic consequence to the practitioner as someone (like Mel) who is actually making blood sacrifices herself.

To quote Manly P. Hall: White magic is use. Grey magic is misuse. Black magic is abuse. That is why black magic is like a sword without a hilt...you may end up cutting yourself because of cause and effect or karmic consequence.

Its interesting, however, that words Mance, Manichean, and manipulation have the same root...the Latin for hands.

[King of Winters]

The except from The World of Ice and Fire doesn't really tell us anything that we didn't already know, if you've read the notes people have made when GRRM read the except. The illustration is great though.

[Armstark]

Now that is a bit puzzling, isn't it? If Haggon remains in Varamyr's head, then Varamyr must not have completely kicked him out of his wolf... am I right? Maybe he just stole the wolf by killing Haggon? Not sure I understand the whole "I stole somebody else's wolf" thing...

I have a theory as to why Haggon still remains in Varamyr's head: I believe it is because he ate his heart. I wrote it down in detail here :http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/22mnlr/spoilers_all_abomination_a_different_take_on/

And I believe it reasonates very well with other thoughts here in heresy. I did plan to write a second part to that theory trying to connect the dots between the Heart Tree, the Heart of Winter and the Burned Heart but haven't found the time yet (or motivation).

[TheRatCook]

I have a theory as to why Haggon still remains in Varamyr's head: I believe it is because he ate his heart. I wrote it down in detail here :http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/22mnlr/spoilers_all_abomination_a_different_take_on/

And I believe it reasonates very well with other thoughts here in heresy. I did plan to write a second part to that theory trying to connect the dots between the Heart Tree, the Heart of Winter and the Burned Heart but haven't found the time yet (or motivation).

Now that is interesting. Send us a link when you do write something.

I tend to think of the heart principle in the context of the Martin quote: “Like much fantasy, it's concerned with the battle of good versus evil, but where I think I differ from a lot of other fantasists is, in my view, the battle between good and evil is waged every day within the individual human heart.”

I like to think that imbalance in the hearts of men is what is causing the imbalance in the seasons.....evil in the hearts of men has upset the alchemical balance between ice and fire. In that sense, its not the Others or the dragons that are the real threat or evil...they are a product of the ice and fire internal/heart imbalance manifesting externally.

I know something similar has been discussed on Heresy before.

Hello, by the way. Long time Heresy reader here.

[MaesterSam]

I am completely fascinated by the possibility that Coldhands, Mance, Bloodraven and Benjen are all in this together. If this could be mined it might end up being a Beyond the Wall Conspiracy to match the GNC. Please feel free to explore. We will chime in without a doubt (or with doubts ;))

Interesting how they are all former Nights Watchmen... do you think BR recruited the other three (and by recruited I mean he caught up with each of them beyond the Wall and somehow convinced them to desert the NW and take up his cause instead)? Maybe one purpose of the raven at Castle Black is to help choose future recruits?

If this were the case, most likely BR recruited CH first. Either after CH had just died on a ranging, in which case BR revived and then recruited him, or maybe CH died at some later point and was revived by BR. So this would mean that CH served in the NW during or after the time BR was there.

The other three (BR, Mance and Benjen) all left the Wall rather suddenly and unexpectedly (two "disappeared" while Mance, who was a good ranger up until then, just suddenly deserted b/c he wanted red string in his cloak. Or maybe the black&red cloak served as a metaphor for BR's Targaryen/dragon influence? He obviously couldn't tell Jon that part...).

Anyway, back to CH. Do we know of anyone else who has disappeared/died/deserted from the NW in the time since BR disappeared? (and how long ago was that? I want to say 50-60 years roughly, but don't have my books here to check). Ideally someone with distinctive facial features (or a facial injury??) that would need to be hidden from Bran (or from his companions. Someone that the Reeds would recognize? Or someone who was so "famous" that he would be recognized by many people, even years after his death?). It could also be someone Maester Aemon may have mentioned, since he would have known him, having been at the Wall continuously from BR's disappearance to the present.

Of course it's also possible that BR really isn't all THAT powerful, and that all this recruiting (including BR himself) was done by the greenseers/CotF. Which doesn't change the overall theory by that much. In either case, it implies there is an extremely important mission/task to be fulfilled, so important that it can make good men drop everything and follow along (something like finding the Horn of Winter to control the WW, like Euron's Horn of Fire controls dragons?)

If this is way too crackpot please feel free to tell me to shut up :P

[Frey family reunion]

Bit late responding to the suggestion that Mance is a Left-hand path practitioner, which he may be. But I find the idea somewhat incompatible with Dalla and Val's warnings to Jon that sorcery is like a sword without a hilt...that there is no safe way to hold it.

Left-hand path stuff, even high left hand path stuff IS actually a form of sorcery because of the emphasis on manipulation in order to get what one wants, ego and personal power, or getting others to carry out your will. Left-hand path symbolism has to do with yin, what is hidden, the moon, etc.

Lower level left-hand path practitioners focus more on carnality, personal survival and the ego as the highest good. High left-hand path practitioners put more emphasis on the balance between light and dark, and spiritual aspects, like Manicheanism.

Left-hand path practitioners do perform a type of grey or black magic, albeit one that doesn't involve the same level of karmic consequence to the practitioner as someone (like Mel) who is actually making blood sacrifices herself.

To quote Manly P. Hall: Grey magic is use. Black magic is abuse. That is why black magic is like a sword without a hilt...you may end up cutting yourself because of cause and effect or karmic consequence.

Its interesting, however, that words Mance, Manichean, and manipulation have the same root...the Latin for hands.

I didn't originally see the post that you were responding to, but there is a lot of interesting stuff there.

If you are looking at the ASOIAF tales as a loose retelling of Ragnorak, then Mance appears to be the Loki character. Both characters were raised amongst the enemy of their people. Also during Mance's glamoring his eyes change back and forth from brown to grey. This is reminiscent of several Norse tales where Loki's eyes change color, sometimes flickering red and green and on another occasion when he is trying to convince Thor to let him accompany him to Utgard, his eyes flicker from brown to green to indigo.

In the Prose Edda, it is said that Loki stands at the helm of Naglfar (ship of nails) with the people of Hel (presumably the people who have died and gone to Hel).

If the name can arguably be translated to "opening a way between two place" perhaps Mance's true motive is looking for a way for the Others and the Wights (the people of Hel?) to pass through the Wall and into Westeros.

[Modesty Lannister]

I didn't originally see the post that you were responding to, but there is a lot of interesting stuff there.

If you are looking at the ASOIAF tales as a loose retelling of Ragnorak, then Mance appears to be the Loki character. Both characters were raised amongst the enemy of their people. Also during Mance's glamoring his eyes change back and forth from brown to grey. This is reminiscent of several Norse tales where Loki's eyes change color, sometimes flickering red and green and on another occasion when he is trying to convince Thor to let him accompany him to Utgard, his eyes flicker from brown to green to indigo.

In the Prose Edda, it is said that Loki stands at the helm of Naglfar (ship of nails) with the people of Hel (presumably the people who have died and gone to Hel).

If the name can arguably be translated to "opening a way between two place" perhaps Mance's true motive is looking for a way for the Others and the Wights (the people of Hel?) to pass through the Wall and into Westeros.

This is great news for all of us who believe MR=RT and discussed the change of colour of his eyes as a huge obstacle.

[MaesterSam]

This is great news for all of us who believe MR=RT and discussed the change of colour of his eyes as a huge obstacle.

Would you mind elaborating on this theory? I was under the impression that Rhaegar's death was not in question. He was killed by Robert at the Trident, no? In the midst of a large battle, with many witnesses... and Robert had such a hatred for the guy, surely he double checked to see he was dead. Am I missing something?