The Jon and Dany are Twins Theory

[Consigliere]

I don't buy the lemon tree cannot survive in Braavos argument. We are only introduced to Braavos when it is already autumn and later winter. Who's to say a lemon tree cannot survive outside in Braavos during the spring and summer? In 298AC it was already the 10th year of summer, meaning the summer started in 289AC. 281AC was the year of the false spring. So spring would have started in 282/283AC. A decade long summer preceded by 6-7 years of spring. Braavos' climate could be very different during this time compared to what we are shown. I don't see the purpose of making this detail of Dany's childhood a lie.

As to Jon and Dany being twins. Evidence from the text contradicts this. And if that is not enough then we have the ssm. This theory is well and truly debunked.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I don't buy the lemon tree cannot survive in Braavos argument. We are only introduced to Braavos when it is already autumn and later winter. Who's to say a lemon tree cannot survive outside in Braavos during the spring and summer? In 298AC it was already the 10th year of summer, meaning the summer started in 289AC. 281AC was the year of the false spring. So spring would have started in 282/283AC. A decade long summer preceded by 6-7 years of spring. Braavos' climate could be very different during this time compared to what we are shown. I don't see the purpose of making this detail of Dany's childhood a lie.

As to Jon and Dany being twins. Evidence from the text contradicts this. And if that is not enough then we have the ssm. This theory is well and truly debunked.

I don't necessarily think a lemon tree cannot survive in Braavos. I just find it more than coincidence that GRRM has Dany talk repeatedly about the lemon tree in Braavos & then has Arya specify that there are no lemon trees in Braavos.

[Consigliere]

I don't necessarily think a lemon tree cannot survive in Braavos. I just find it more than coincidence that GRRM has Dany talk repeatedly about the lemon tree in Braavos & then has Arya specify that there are no lemon trees in Braavos.

We are told that trees decorate the gardens and courts of the mighty in Braavos. Just because she has not seen any lemon trees does not mean there aren't any. Arya's PoV of Braavos is limited in that she has not encountered the lifestyle of the rich and powerful in Braavos.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I completely agree Jon & Dany are not twins but I do think there may be something with the lemon tree. I don't buy that they were just rich & planted one. What is the point of even mentioning it then?

It would be a subtle hint that Dany and Viserys were being taken care off by richer people, which would explain why Robert wasn't able to reach them.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

We are told that trees decorate the gardens and courts of the mighty in Braavos. Just because she has not seen any lemon trees does not mean there aren't any. Arya's PoV of Braavos is limited in that she has not encountered the lifestyle of the rich and powerful in Braavos.

Arya's not limited to what she sees. She also hears and remembers things that other people wouldn't bother storing in their minds. She may have learned from someone else that the lemon trees won't grow there. Could be that person was wrong. Could be they grow but they won't produce lemons. We'll have to wait and see if GRRM does anything with the lemon trees.

[Consigliere]

Arya's not limited to what she sees. She also hears and remembers things that other people wouldn't bother storing in their minds. She may have learned from someone else that the lemon trees won't grow there. Could be that person was wrong. Could be they grow but they won't produce lemons. We'll have to wait and see if GRRM does anything with the lemon trees.

She has not encountered the lifestyle of the rich and powerful in Braavos. So, yeah, in that respect, her PoV of Braavos is limited.

[HexMachina]

It would be a subtle hint that Dany and Viserys were being taken care off by richer people, which would explain why Robert wasn't able to reach them.

Like a certain sealord who signed a certain document? ;)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Like a certain sealord who signed a certain document? ;)

Exactly.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

We are told that trees decorate the gardens and courts of the mighty in Braavos. Just because she has not seen any lemon trees does not mean there aren't any. Arya's PoV of Braavos is limited in that she has not encountered the lifestyle of the rich and powerful in Braavos.

But are we told the courts are decorated with lemon trees? Because if we are I don't recall that. Arya's POV is most certainly not limited. Possibly she hasn't encountered the rich and powerful.

It would be a subtle hint that Dany and Viserys were being taken care off by richer people, which would explain why Robert wasn't able to reach them.

This just seems so pointless to me. What would be the point in dropping a subtle hint to indicate Dany & Viserys were taken care of? We know they were taken care of & obviously Robert wasn't able to get to them even after that so I don't get what that even has to do with anything.

I really don't mean to be argumentative but for GRRM to have Dany mention having a lemon tree in Braavos & then have Arya say there are no lemon trees in Braavos all to indicate that Dany & Viserys were taken care of (something we are told outright and doesn't need any subtle hints) seems really pointless to me.

I do not think that it is any indication that Jon & Dany are twins & it may have just been a mistake on GRRM'S part but barring mistake I think it is dropping a hint to something.

[Consigliere]

But are we told the courts are decorated with lemon trees? Because if we are I don't recall that. Arya's POV is most certainly not limited. Possibly she hasn't encountered the rich and powerful.

Not lemon trees specifically but rather trees decorating the gardens of the mighty. It is mentioned in Sam's pov in Feast. And of course Arya's pov is limited, just like everyone else's. Unless you are arguing that her pov is omniscient? Lastly, Arya has not encountered the lifestyles of the wealthy in Braavos as far as I recall. Unless you can provide quotes to the contrary?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

This just seems so pointless to me. What would be the point in dropping a subtle hint to indicate Dany & Viserys were taken care of? We know they were taken care of & obviously Robert wasn't able to get to them even after that so I don't get what that even has to do with anything.

I really don't mean to be argumentative but for GRRM to have Dany mention having a lemon tree in Braavos & then have Arya say there are no lemon trees in Braavos all to indicate that Dany & Viserys were taken care of (something we are told outright and doesn't need any subtle hints) seems really pointless to me.

I do not think that it is any indication that Jon & Dany are twins & it may have just been a mistake on GRRM'S part but barring mistake I think it is dropping a hint to something.

We know that Viserys and Dany were taken care of. That's not the point. The point is that, if they had been taken care of by someone without money to spare, they would not have been as protected as they had been. Had they simply lived in a house, Robert could have easily send a hireling or two to do the job. But they did not live in a simple house, they lived in a bigger house, that was owned by a richer, rather powerful man in Braavos. Killing someone on his property could have inflamed a war with Braavos.

Could someone point me to where Arya says there are no lemon trees in Braavos? I can't find the quote..

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

We know that Viserys and Dany were taken care of. That's not the point. The point is that, if they had been taken care of by someone without money to spare, they would not have been as protected as they had been. Had they simply lived in a house, Robert could have easily send a hireling or two to do the job. But they did not live in a simple house, they lived in a bigger house, that was owned by a richer, rather powerful man in Braavos. Killing someone on his property could have inflamed a war with Braavos.

Could someone point me to where Arya says there are no lemon trees in Braavos? I can't find the quote..

My point exactly. We already know all this with out the lemon tree conundrum so why use the lemon tree as a subtle hint to point out something already known?

I'll look for the quote give me a few.

[HexMachina]

We know that Viserys and Dany were taken care of. That's not the point. The point is that, if they had been taken care of by someone without money to spare, they would not have been as protected as they had been. Had they simply lived in a house, Robert could have easily send a hireling or two to do the job. But they did not live in a simple house, they lived in a bigger house, that was owned by a richer, rather powerful man in Braavos. Killing someone on his property could have inflamed a war with Braavos.

Could someone point me to where Arya says there are no lemon trees in Braavos? I can't find the quote..

It isnt Arya who mentions the lack of lemon trees but

Raff and the other guard mention it in the Mercy chapter. Though again, that doesnt mean they cant be in the gardens of the rich, just that they aren't a consumer crop

[Ser Creighton]

Lemon trees again? That's Yolkboys theory and the conversation really belongs on his thread or the part 2 version someone threw out there.

All I will say is this.

1. Don't get to into agriculture, most plants need multiple seasons so they can enter their dormant state. If they don't get it, they build up to much sugar and they die.

2. You should not be able to grow grapes in the Arbor, to much salt in the soil.

3. The Martells seem to think Dany was in Braavos, and the Sealord of Braavos witnessed the contract.

4. She was in Braavos. There is no reason for the Martells to lie given they are all ready plotting something.

5. Dany and Jon share very strong parallels, though the symbolism is usually inverse. Male and Female, Stark, Targaryen, Bastard and true born, unknown and known, both have very heavy symbolism with the sun and moon but each one favors one aspect over the other. They seem to act very much as polarities, and like polarities there stories seem destined to meet. Ice and fire, the wall and dragons, the north and south, west and east, dark hair and silver hair, defensive and offensive, bound and unbound, the subjugated free folk, the freed slaves, the list goes on and on.

6. The lemon tree is has many symbols, both bitter and sweet is the lemon tree, all powerful and all beautiful. In astrology it is tied to Jupiter. But Dany is associated with 3 trees, Lemon, Peach and Persimmon. Danys nickname is also tied to Jupiter "Stormborn" the peach tree a symbol of immortality Dany had just brought dragons back to life and walked in and out of the fire. Finally the persimmon tree, to bitter to eat when young but as it ages it becomes sweet.

Interesting read on Father Time involving cycles.

http://www.novareinna.com/festive/oft.html

7. It was a dream and a recollection of a small child. The big house with the red door is very similar to the story Martin told about his Moms old family house that her family had lost and he used to walk by on his way to school.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

My point exactly. We already know all this with out the lemon tree conundrum so why use the lemon tree as a subtle hint to point out something already known?

I'll look for the quote give me a few.

My guess (that I totally forget to mention earlier), is that the lemon trees (at least the way I see it) represents innocence. The lemons are also mentioned by Sansa (lemon cakes), and there definitly was a certain innocense to Sansa. For example, after all she has been through in KL, she is offered lemoncakes when meeting the Queen of Thornes... who then tries to plot and marry Sansa off to her grandson.

So the importance of the lemon trees in Dany's memories, is that Dany often thinks that she would love to go back to the house with the red door and the lemon tree.. back to her innosence..

It isnt Arya who mentions the lack of lemon trees but

Raff and the other guard mention it in the Mercy chapter. Though again, that doesnt mean they cant be in the gardens of the rich, just that they aren't a consumer crop

Thanks!

[PrettyPig]

I definitely don't think Dany is exactly who she is portrayed to be (ie last child of Aerys and Rhaella), and I have had similar thoughts re: the whole Jon twin thing. A Targ-ish looking twin would certainly explain 1) why Ned chose to trek to Starfall after the ToJ ordeal (i have never bought that the trip was just about returning a sword), 2) Ashara's 'suicide', 3) Lyanna's brutal childbirth (assumedly) that resulted in her death. Add in the house with the red door, lemon trees in Braavos, Quaithe's stalking of Dany and "remember who you are", and one could be led to believe that there is more to Dany's parentage than has been revealed.

That brings up the whole timeline argument. There is the SSM, which I personally think leaves wiggle room as it is really addressing JON's age based off of what we Gentle Readers have been TOLD about Dany's age - GRRM neatly answered that question utilizing what everyone assumes about Dany's birth and left it wide open for everyone to keep assuming it. That being said, I believe there is also another SSM or somesuch floating about where he does confirm that Dany is Aerys' daughter (I can't find link? please correct me if that is not true), so there's potentially that canon to factor in. THAT, however, could open the door to the question of...who is her mother? I don't think it's Rhaella, regardless of what theory you buy into.

GRRM has been very precise with some of his details about Dany and her background, but very vague about others. IMO this is intentional vagueness and we are in for a surprise about Dany. I think she's a Targaryen, but a product of WHICH Targaryen remains to be seen.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

My guess (that I totally forget to mention earlier), is that the lemon trees (at least the way I see it) represents innocence. The lemons are also mentioned by Sansa (lemon cakes), and there definitly was a certain innocense to Sansa. For example, after all she has been through in KL, she is offered lemoncakes when meeting the Queen of Thornes... who then tries to plot and marry Sansa off to her grandson.

So the importance of the lemon trees in Dany's memories, is that Dany often thinks that she would love to go back to the house with the red door and the lemon tree.. back to her innosence..

Thanks!

I could get on board with this.

[Lord Lyman]

Could it be that Arya will come across the house with the red door and the lemon trees? She has pretty much stuck close to the harbor and the bay and she may end up being given a contract that will take her there.

[Margaret Ballinger]

A Storm of Swords:

“Do you think Sharna might have lemons down in that cellar of hers?” said Anguy to Tom as they watched Lem splash around, cursing. “A Dornish girl once cooked me duck with lemons.” He sounded wistful. . .

~~~~~~~~~~

Anguy shuffled his feet. “We were thinking we might eat it, Sharna. With lemons. If you had some.”

“Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don’t you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too.” She shook a finger at him.

~~~~~~~~~~

Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she’d watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. “You are blood of the dragon,” he had screamed at her. “A dragon, not some smelly fish.”

I thought Daenerys came from Braavos, here she remembers a trip to Braavos. There are pieces of her memory missing.

~~~~~~~~~~

A Feast for Crows:

Only three leagues of coast road divided Sunspear from the Water Gardens, yet they were two different worlds. There children frolicked naked in the sun, music played in tiled courtyards, and the air was sharp with the smell of lemons and blood oranges.

~~~~~~~~~~

“To spears! Vengeance for the Viper!” By the time they reached the third gate, the guards were shoving people aside to clear a path for the prince’s litter, and the crowd was throwing things. One ragged boy darted past the spearmen with a half-rotten pomegranate in one hand, but when he saw Areo Hotah in his path, with longaxe at the ready, he let the fruit fall unthrown and beat a quick retreat. Others farther back let fly with lemons, limes, and oranges, crying “War! War! To the spears!” One of the guards was hit in the eye with a lemon, and the captain himself had an orange splatter off his foot.

~~~~~~~~~~

The Dornish nights grow cold out upon the sands. Garin gathered wood for them, bleached white branches from trees that had withered up and died a hundred years ago. Drey built a fire, whistling as he struck sparks off his flint. Once the kindling caught, they sat around the flames and passed a skin of summerwine from hand to hand . . . all but Darkstar, who preferred to drink unsweetened lemonwater.

~~~~~~~~~~

Beyond a line of stony hills the grass grew greener and more lush, and there were lemon orchards watered by a spider’s web of old canals. Garin was the first to spy the river glimmering green. He gave a shout and raced ahead.

Arianne Martell had crossed the Mander once, when she had gone with three of the Sand Snakes to visit Tyene’s mother. Compared to that mighty waterway, the Greenblood was scarce worthy of the name of river, yet it remained the life of Dorne.

~~~~~~~~~~

The Winds of Winter - "Mercy" excerpt:

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

Citrus need a hot, dry climate for the fruit to ripen. And they need bees. Braavos does not have the requirements.

Several times GRRM hints that citrus are gown south, and grown commercially in Dorne,

And GRRM more strongly points out in the Winds of Winter excerpt that citrus trees do not grow north of King's Landing.

As for Jon and Dany being twins - no. I do believe Ashara's story hasn't been revealed because there is some bomb that GRRM is hiding. I don't have a clue what it is or how it relates. The only thing I found is that there are rumors that she loved Ned. And they possibly 'hooked up' at the tourney of Harrenhal which was in 281AC. Jon was born in 283AC. She was not his mother because she couldn't have been pregnant that long.

GRRM states that Ashara was not 'nailed down' at Starfall and she was Elia's handmaiden. She was at King's Landing for several years during Elia & Rhaegar's marriage. So if she didn't get knocked up at the tourney, she got knocked up at King's Landing.

~Cat of the Canals - A Feast for Crows

The whores called him the black singer, but there was hardly any black about him now. With the coin his singing brought him, the crow had transformed himself into a peacock.

‘He is a man of the Night’s Watch,’ she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. ‘The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. And the singer should be on the Wall.’

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Lemon trees again? That's Yolkboys theory and the conversation really belongs on his thread or the part 2 version someone threw out there.

4. She was in Braavos. There is no reason for the Martells to lie given they are all ready plotting something.

No one said that she was never in Braavos. We know she's been there. We also know she's been to other places. It's not a huge stretch to think she might have been in Dorne at some point when she was very young, with or without the Martells knowing about it. The house with the red door can be in Braavos, with the lemon tree being somewhere else. Her memories could be getting mixed together.