Skythe1 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 snip Regarding english players; there are not too many around that match up to their european counterparts quality wise. Another factor is that english players are overpriced and teams can get a foreign player of equal or better quality for less. I think it's going the other way now to be honest. IMO English players don't cost as much as their foreign counterparts. Imagine if Arsenal sold Walcott today, they'd probably get less than £20m for him, but the figure being banded around for Di Maria is £50-£60m - I'm not saying they're on exactly the same level but I don't think they're too far apart. Jones cost Man Utd £16m, City are about to pay £32m for Mangala. Just a couple off the top of my head, but I don't think it's as bad as a few years ago when the likes of James Milner and Joleon Lescott cost £25m and £22m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 English players are expensive in England. Look at Shaw, Lallana most recently. Walcott's value is low, not because he's English, but because he has had multiple long term injuries affecting his fitness and thus his playing time. If he had a good WC or finished the season strongly instead of tearing his ACL, he'd cost more than 20 mil. Honestly, as an outsider, I don't care if English players are being developed properly. I just want a competitive league with as many of the best players in the world there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skythe1 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 English players are expensive in England. Look at Shaw, Lallana most recently. Walcott's value is low, not because he's English, but because he has had multiple long term injuries affecting his fitness and thus his playing time. If he had a good WC or finished the season strongly instead of tearing his ACL, he'd cost more than 20 mil. Honestly, as an outsider, I don't care if English players are being developed properly. I just want a competitive league with as many of the best players in the world there. Yeah that's our problem, the Premier League is such a massive brand that the FA are reluctant to tinker with it to increase the quality of English players. With Shaw and Lallana, they're both fantastic young players with heaps of potential, so I don't think they were overpriced. Definitely no more so than the foreign equivalent. Yeah Walcott was probably a bad example, but my brain is fried from being at work and I'm struggling to think of any better ones. ETA: obviously being from England I want better English players! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 English national team won so many trophies before overseas players started coming in. Oh, wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skythe1 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 English national team won so many trophies before overseas players started coming in. Oh, wait... It's not necessarily about winning the trophies, it's about being competitive. We haven't been competitive at a major tournament for a long time now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Yeah that's our problem, the Premier League is such a massive brand that the FA are reluctant to tinker with it to increase the quality of English players. With Shaw and Lallana, they're both fantastic young players with heaps of potential, so I don't think they were overpriced. Definitely no more so than the foreign equivalent. Yeah Walcott was probably a bad example, but my brain is fried from being at work and I'm struggling to think of any better ones. ETA: obviously being from England I want better English players! Shaw and Lallana are fantastic young players with heaps of potential but 30 mil for an 18 year old LB and 25 mil for Lallana when it looks like Sanchez went for around 28-30 mil? That feels overpriced to me even if they do have a ton of potential. There is definitely an English inflation there (maybe not as much for Lallana but definitely for Shaw). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Mongoose Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 It's not necessarily about winning the trophies, it's about being competitive. We haven't been competitive at a major tournament for a long time now. Well we got to a WC 1/4 final in 2002 and 2006, and that was with a league full of foreign players, and we were at our most terrible in the early 90's, with a league full of English players. I doubt the two are related. For me, the issues are with youth training and coaching culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Mongoose Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Shaw and Lallana are fantastic young players with heaps of potential but 30 mil for an 18 year old LB and 25 mil for Lallana when it looks like Sanchez went for around 28-30 mil? That feels overpriced to me even if they do have a ton of potential. There is definitely an English inflation there (maybe not as much for Lallana but definitely for Shaw). Ross McCormack was sold for £11m, but nobody talks about Scottish inflation. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskaral Pust Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I think Adidas has severely misjudged that negotiation. They've just set a new price level for their other top clubs (RM, Bayern, Chelsea, Juve, Milan, etc) when they come up for renewal. And they committed to 10 years at a time of transition. Were they so terrified of Nike or did they need an instant presence in Asia? Chevy negotiated their sponsorship with ManU back in 2012, so they can be forgiven for over-paying (and they guy who inked that deal was fired since). But Adidas have just jumped in where angels would fear to tread. Revenue gains in football seem to get quickly eaten up by inflation. PL TV revenue went up and suddenly the prices of players and their wages are jumping from already very high levels. ManU have just cemented their financial pre-eminence, but that was hardly in doubt anyway. I think football would be more open and competitive with a cap system like NFL, but that's only possible if all leagues in the world embrace it at the same time, so it will never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skythe1 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Shaw and Lallana are fantastic young players with heaps of potential but 30 mil for an 18 year old LB and 25 mil for Lallana when it looks like Sanchez went for around 28-30 mil? That feels overpriced to me even if they do have a ton of potential. There is definitely an English inflation there (maybe not as much for Lallana but definitely for Shaw). It was £35m for Sanchez, but he only had a year left on his contract and Barca wanted to sell, so it's not really the same situation. Shaw & Lallana both had long term contracts and Southampton didn't want to sell them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skythe1 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Well we got to a WC 1/4 final in 2002 and 2006, and that was with a league full of foreign players, and we were at our most terrible in the early 90's, with a league full of English players. I doubt the two are related. For me, the issues are with youth training and coaching culture. Yeah but we didn't play well at all in those tournaments, and I don't know about you but I'm not happy with quarter final appearances. We finished 4th in 1990! ETA: agree about the youth training and coaching, but it's just a part of the puzzle IMO. ETA2: It's also worth nothing that from 2000-2006, the amount of foreign players was between 35-45%, compared to the 55-65% the past few seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 It was £35m for Sanchez, but he only had a year left on his contract and Barca wanted to sell, so it's not really the same situation. Shaw & Lallana both had long term contracts and Southampton didn't want to sell them. I've seen anywhere from 28-35 mil. Each source has a different number. Barca might have wanted to sell but they had an evaluation hence the multiple bids. Remember, Liverpool bid over 30 mil and Arsenal were forced to raise their bid. It's not like Bara valued him significantly more but sold him for less just to get rid of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skythe1 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I've seen anywhere from 28-35 mil. Each source has a different number. Barca might have wanted to sell but they had an evaluation hence the multiple bids. Remember, Liverpool bid over 30 mil and Arsenal were forced to raise their bid. It's not like Bara valued him significantly more but sold him for less just to get rid of him. Yeah of course they had a valuation, but they didn't have to be persuaded to sell by a massive offer, they had a figure in mind and were happy to take it. If he would have had a 4 year contract and they wanted to hang on to him, it would have been a much bigger fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Moff Mithrandir Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Hahaha I see numerous reports linking us to a £45m bid for Marco Reus, I love transfer season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Hahaha I see numerous reports linking us to a £45m bid for Marco Reus, I love transfer season. Har! Would never happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I think it's going the other way now to be honest. IMO English players don't cost as much as their foreign counterparts. Imagine if Arsenal sold Walcott today, they'd probably get less than £20m for him, but the figure being banded around for Di Maria is £50-£60m - I'm not saying they're on exactly the same level but I don't think they're too far apart. Jones cost Man Utd £16m, City are about to pay £32m for Mangala. Just a couple off the top of my head, but I don't think it's as bad as a few years ago when the likes of James Milner and Joleon Lescott cost £25m and £22m. I think that historically english players have cost more than their european equivalents. The new television distribution deal in England resulting in higher revenues for english clubs might see that changing now. I'm sure foreign clubs will now be demanding more money when dealing with english clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I think Adidas has severely misjudged that negotiation. They've just set a new price level for their other top clubs (RM, Bayern, Chelsea, Juve, Milan, etc) when they come up for renewal. And they committed to 10 years at a time of transition. Were they so terrified of Nike or did they need an instant presence in Asia? Chevy negotiated their sponsorship with ManU back in 2012, so they can be forgiven for over-paying (and they guy who inked that deal was fired since). But Adidas have just jumped in where angels would fear to tread. Revenue gains in football seem to get quickly eaten up by inflation. PL TV revenue went up and suddenly the prices of players and their wages are jumping from already very high levels. ManU have just cemented their financial pre-eminence, but that was hardly in doubt anyway. I think football would be more open and competitive with a cap system like NFL, but that's only possible if all leagues in the world embrace it at the same time, so it will never happen. I was under the impression that EU labor and antitrust laws (similar the the reasoning behind the Bosman ruling) prevent any salary cap from being implemented. The Bundesliga is only about half German, so I think if you want to fix player development in England, you'll have to look elsewhere than just the players in the senior teams of the top 20 clubs. England's home grown player situation is still better than the German one in the later 90's/early 2000's. Also, I hope Klopp can keep Hummels, Reus and co around for another year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skythe1 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Yeah there's a lot of foreign players in Germany, but look at how many of the German World Cup players are at the top German clubs starting week in week out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Nah but its not the same, Mex, because there are rules against City and Chelsea now, whereas if United get double what everyone else gets yearly for their kit - apparently the going rate for a team who finished 7th and isn't in the Champion's League - then that's an unstoppable advantage. Ah, right. Kit deals should be based on last year's results. That makes... no sense at all. Come on, Alex - that's either you being silly or you trying to crowbar in a dig about last season. Either way, it's pointless. The thing about City, after all, and the reason the club attracted your current owners in the first place, is that they have the potential to match Man U on these sorts of deals. Little point complaining about them now, when in five years' time your guys are hoping to match them. If it was about trying to stop another Leeds/Portsmouth why not do something about debt? City have no debt. We owe the Sheikh £0.00. If he walked away tomorrow nothing would change. Ask a Hearts fan about that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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