Incest is a "fundamental right" says German Ethics Council

[maarsen]

Worked pretty well for the Habsburgs.

But where are they now?

[Galactus]

But where are they now?

One of them is married to a swedish count, Otto was a MEUP until he died quite recently.

[Stannisaurus2]

Aside from the possibility of coercion, I don't think there is any serious reason for outlawing incest (well maybe outlawing incest of continuous generations or something)

[maarsen]

One of them is married to a swedish count, Otto was a MEUP until he died quite recently.

They no longer hold any real power or wealth. Titles are nice but don't buy bread.

[Ormond]

As I understand it, there is no society where parent-child incest is considered acceptable. As we all know, that doesn't mean that it never happens, but when it does it is condemned everywhere.

Brother-sister incest is almost universally disapproved of. The few exceptions include the royal families in three widely separate societies -- the Polynesian Hawaiians, the Incas in Peru, and ancient Egypt. This was partly because all these cultures believed that the royal families were descended from the gods, and mere mortals weren't thought to be appropriate as official spouses for the rulers.

Though as far as I know brother-sister marriages in Hawaii and Peru were always limited to the royal family, we know there were some times within ancient Egypt's long history when wealthy commoners imitated the Pharoahs and also had brother-sister marriages. We know this because of genetic testing of mummies. We don't know if the great mass of poor peasants ever regularly had brother-sister marriages because they couldn't afford mummification,

First cousin marriages, though disapproved of by some religions and cultures, are as as far as I know actually legal in every jurisdiction in the world except some states in the USA. Laws against first cousin marriages in those states were passed during the 19th century eugenics movement. I believe it is legally possible to marry a first cousin everywhere in Europe -- though I am quite willing to be corrected by any Europeans on this board who have first hand knowledge otherwise.

[TerraPrime]

As I understand it, there is no society where parent-child incest is considered acceptable. As we all know, that doesn't mean that it never happens, but when it does it is condemned.

Lot and his daughters? Just allegories?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Charles Darwin married and had children with his first cousin.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I'm no biblical scholar, and this is kind of OT (off topic or old testament? YOU decide!), but is there any nonincestuous explanation for all of humanity being descended Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel?

[Ormond]

Lot and his daughters? Just allegories?

Terra, I do NOT think the story of Lot's daughters APPROVES of their incest. I think most Biblical scholars assume that this story was created to justify the ancient Israelites' discrimination against the closely related Moabites and Ammonites. The two sons born to Lot's daughters are Moab and Ben-ammi and are specifically stated to be the ancestors of the Moabites and Ammonites. By claiming these groups were descended from father-daughter incest, the ancient Hebrew authors were insulting them. They certainly weren't setting up Lot's daughters as role models for Israelite girls who found themselves in a similar situation.

[TerraPrime]

Terra, I do NOT think the story of Lot's daughters APPROVES of their incest. I think most Biblical scholars assume that this story was created to justify the ancient Israelites' discrimination against the closely related Moabites and Ammonites. The two sons born to Lot's daughters are Moab and Ben-ammi and are specifically stated to be the ancestors of the Moabites and Ammonites. By claiming these groups were descended from father-daughter incest, the ancient Hebrew authors were insulting them. They certainly weren't setting up Lot's daughters as role models for Israelite girls who found themselves in a similar situation.

Fair enough. Though for a God who smited the entire city for wickedness just a few pages ago, the lack of direct and severe retribution seems... odd. But that's for the Christianity thread I suppose.

[The Anti-Targ]

Incest that doesn't produce children is not morally wrong*. Disgusting to most people, yes, but I don't think our laws should be based on taste.

*Obviously accidents happen, and making it legal could increase the numbers of deformed children born.

You can't say that as if it's an undeniable fact. There are plenty of people who's moral perspective is that incest is morally wrong regardless of whether pregnancy is the intended or unintended outcome. The below being somewhat of a basis for arguing the general moral wrongness of it. It's a bigger question as to whether, or to what extent, secular governments should regulate moral matters. Allow individuals, or self identifying groups (like religious groups), to form their own moral codes and only legislate on matters pertaining to issues of individual rights and freedoms, being in this case the essential aspect of consent. Or some issues of morality are too difficult to manage from first principles, so some form of moral regulation in society is desirable. Determining consent in cases of incest is fraught, given the level of grooming and distortion of familial relationships which may go into manipulating a younger or more vulnerable person into giving consent, and the fact such manipulation may happen progressively over a long timescale because. Is it always the case that convincing someone to have sex always means consent?

IMO incest should be unlawful, but it should not be criminal unless the nature of the incest also meets the legal definitions for statutory or coercive rape or sexual assault or whatever other criminal offences exist that can apply to sexual matters between non-relatives.

The problem with incest is that it encourages predatory relationships wherein an older sibling can condition a younger sibling.

Polygamy has a similar problem with retrograde cultural notions guiding the male-female ratio.

[Solmyr]

I remember having a lengthy debate about incest a while back on the board, so I will not rehash the same arguments. I am just glad that there are others out there, and in places where their voices can be heard, that consider the moral implications of having incestuous relationships remain illegal.

[Galactus]

They no longer hold any real power or wealth. Titles are nice but don't buy bread.

As mentioned, Otto was MEUP. Walpurga held a cabinet position in the swedish government.

[David Selig]

First cousin marriages, though disapproved of by some religions and cultures, are as as far as I know actually legal in every jurisdiction in the world except some states in the USA. Laws against first cousin marriages in those states were passed during the 19th century eugenics movement. I believe it is legally possible to marry a first cousin everywhere in Europe -- though I am quite willing to be corrected by any Europeans on this board who have first hand knowledge otherwise.

It is illegal here in Bulgaria. Serbia too, I think.

[messem]

It is illegal here in Bulgaria. Serbia too, I think.

It is (according to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#mediaviewer/File:CousinMarriageWorld.svg) legal in the most European countries. And while legal actually only executed in one culture group http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#mediaviewer/File:Global_prevalence_of_consanguinity.svg

[baxus]

It is illegal here in Bulgaria. Serbia too, I think.

I haven't checked the legality of it, but first cousins' marriage in Serbia would definitely be frowned upon to the point of spouses getting disowned by their family.

[Stannisaurus2]

I haven't checked the legality of it, but first cousins' marriage in Serbia would definitely be frowned upon to the point of spouses getting disowned by their family.

Same in Greece. Even second cousins would probably face scorn and ridicule from society.

[sologdin]

I haven't checked the legality of it, but first cousins' marriage in Serbia would definitely be frowned upon to the point of spouses getting disowned by their family.

wife advises that in the sarajevo of her childhood, the grannies would scold people away from distant cousins.

[baxus]

Same in Greece. Even second cousins would probably face scorn and ridicule from society.

Second cousins would barely have it any better than first cousins if they decided to marry.

To me, considering marriage with a first or second cousin is almost the same as being insane.

It is very much a cultural thing, with families of days past being much closer knit and cousins often being as close as siblings. It just didn't translate to modern days and families being much more scattered around the globe.

Just to illustrate a point to people who are not familiar with Serbian family ties:

• there is no "aunt" and "uncle" that cover both our mother's brother and our father's brothers/sisters/cousins; we use different terms for those;

there is no "aunt" that covers both your aunt and your uncle's wife (the same for "uncle")

we don't call our first and second cousins cousins - our terms for them would be "brother/sister from <equivalent of aunt/uncle"

"in-laws" covers your spouse's whole family but there are different terms for your spouse's brother/sister/mother/father (no "in-law" suffix)

we have specific terms for your in-laws' spouses and their close families, as ridiculous as that sounds :D for example, there is a specific term for "your wife's sister's husband"

yes, we do get confused with all those terms from time to time ;)

It's a bit much and is definitely a remnant of times past but as you can imagine we do take family seriously.

wife advises that in the sarajevo of her childhood, the grannies would scold people away from distant cousins.

Even distant cousins are cousins ;)

Joking aside, it is considered very weird being romantically involved with someone you know you're related to, no matter how distant.

[sologdin]

even distant cousins are cousins

yeah, wife also informs me that the english notion of first, second, third cousin twice removed is idiotic to the yugoslav mind.