Trial by Folly: The Arianne Martell Reread Project [TWOW Arianne I spoilers]

[Mal Malenkirk]

Even more bizarre is that Isabella could have enjoyed an openly adulterous relationship with Mortimer, launched an invasion to overthrow her husband and King, and had the full and enthusiastic backing of the English Church. Imagine what the High Sparrow would have made of that! It's a measure of how disastrous the reign of Edward II had become.

That sounds like bad fiction, doesn't it? I mean, you make it into a movie and don't spend 2 hours on exposition about how things got this far, just start at the coup, and the spectators will say : ''No way! I don't buy this.''

[SeanF]

You know, Arianne says the people love her and wants to avenge Oberyn and we have to take her word for it because we never get the POV of the dornish small folks. Overall, Martin rarely shows us the POV of smallfolks anywhere for that matter, the majority of the serie is centered squarely on the entitled by blood protagonists. I can't help but wonder why the smallfolks would be so supportive of their lords and gung ho, in Dorne as elsewhere. As far as they can tell, these guys are mostly out for their self interests and plotting the next way they'll get to send their sons to die in a war. It would help if we saw the lords do some governing once in a while, to understand where that gratitude of their subject might come from. The Starks are the only one we see involved in a bit of such, and it's onlt matters of justice and regulations (like when Bran was setting the amount of reserve to set aside), which is something at least if not much.

I frequently give flak to the Targaryens for having spent 300 years in Westeros without spending hardly any

efforts developping their holdings. In all that time, for example, the lone example of engineering project to develop the land is the King's road, which isn't even paved! 300 years for one dirt road... Even the mad roman emperors like Commodus points at the Targs and laugh at their ineptitude or indifference (take your pick). But it's not like we see the regional lord paramount do a whole lot more, do we? The Martells have been around for centuries. What do they have to show for it? No centralization, no great project of irrigations to alleviate the climate limitations on agriculture, no large merchants fleet to defend and expand the vital trading interests of Dorne etc... What do these guys do beside plotting and warring that would make the

smallfolk so loyal and eager to die for their lords?! It feels more like a plot artefact than a credible development. Or maybe they are not in fact that gung ho and Arianne misjudge the mood of the people. Wouldn't be the first noble to do so. We'll see.

So, bottom line, the Martell bickering makes for good drama and I enjoy it on the first degree. But when I

stop to think about it, I don't see what makes either the father or daugter good leaders. Wouldn't want either ruling over me. Points to Doran for giving some thoughts about the consequence of war on the innocents, I guess. Now how about you actually govern, develop your land and properly educate your daughter, you genius.

Well, in real medieval societies, peasants were pretty loyal to their lords and kings, provided they weren't flagrantly unjust. We'd expect to see the same in Westeros. Provided a lord doesn't impose undue taxes, punishes outlaws and criminals, and suppresses private war among his vassals, the Smallfolk on his estates are likely to be strongly committed to him.

We do have Areo Hotah's point of view, which is that the Shadow City is seething with anger over Oberyn's death. Over and above loyalty to the Martells, the Dornish have an unusually intense patriotism. And, in addition to this, people like Arianne and Oberyn have a rock-star quality that the Smallfolk adore.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Well, in real medieval societies, peasants were pretty loyal to their lords and kings, provided they weren't flagrantly unjust. We'd expect to see the same in Westeros. Provided a lord doesn't impose undue taxes, punishes outlaws and criminals, and suppresses private war among his vassals, the Smallfolk on his estates are likely to be strongly committed to him.

We do have Areo Hotah's point of view, which is that the Shadow City is seething with anger over Oberyn's death. Over and above loyalty to the Martells, the Dornish have an unusually intense patriotism. And, in addition to this, people like Arianne and Oberyn have a rock-star quality that the Smallfolk adore.

I can see how Oberyn would be wildly popular to the small folk. Charismatic, kicking ass in various tournaments and when he wanted to play at war he did it as a mercenary oversea. He was making Dornish look badass all over the world while so far never dragging any of them personally in a war. And when they have to pay taxes, it is to that dick Doran, not to awesome Oberyn. Oberyn rocks!

Arianne benefit from some of the same from a female ideal angle. But start getting into needless wars, watch the death toll rise along with the war taxes to pay for this mess... Popularity is a fickle mistress. Typically, smallfolk, minus a portion of hot blooded young men looking for glory, are not eager for war. And if they are, a responsible leader shouldn't necessarily humor them.

[Chebyshov]

^It's that Dornish fightin' spirit! Did you read the world book? The Dornish smallfolk are awesome and

played a paramount role in overthrowing Daeron's "conquering."

This tactic proved less effective than Daeron might have hoped, however. Whilst the hostages helped ensure the continued loyalty of their own blood, the king had not anticipated the tenacity of Dorne’s smallfolk, over whom he had no hold. Ten thousand men, it is said, died in the battle for Dorne; forty thousand more died over the course of the following three years, as common Dornishmen fought on stubbornly against the king’s men.

Lord Tyrell, whom Daeron had left in charge of Dorne, valiantly attempted to quell the fires of rebellion, traveling from castle to castle with each turn of the moon— punishing any supporters of the rebels with the noose, burning down the villages that harbored the outlaws, and so on. But the smallfolk struck back, and each new day found supplies stolen or destroyed, camps burned, horses killed, and slowly the count of dead soldiers and men-at-arms rose—killed in the alleyways of the shadow city, ambushed amidst the dunes, murdered in their camps.

(it goes on...)

This is getting more into Debates' material, of course.

[Mal Malenkirk]

^It's that Dornish fightin' spirit! Did you read the world book? The Dornish smallfolk are awesome and

played a paramount role in overthrowing Daeron's "conquering."

(it goes on...)

This is getting more into Debates' material, of course.

Yeah, I remember that. They sound like the Russians. Historically, the Russian people have proved to be incredibly resiliant and fierce when acting in self defense to protect their homeland. Ask Hitler. They have proved much less enthusiastic when it's their leaders that dragged them in a pointless fight. Ask the Romanov.

Anyway, it's obvious that Dorne is about to enter the fray one way or the other so we'll soon (in book speed, not writing speed...) see just how gung ho they are and how much military ressources they have.

[Chebyshov]

I'd just ask the people screaming "to spears" and pelting Doran with citrus :dunno: .

[JonCon's Red Beard]

One thing that I believe Arianne was not considering was that the smallfolk are not in charge. This is not a democracy. The whole common people of Dorne might have wanted to go and war the IT. But... their opinions didn't matter. It's the Lords what say what is done and what is not.

Yes, Oberyn was a champion of House Martell and Dorne. He cared little for a man's origin but his value. And he was pretty much a superstar. But... did he want the people to go and war? TBH, we don't know that. He might have, at the end, shared his brother's opinions about how wars cause nothing but the death of children and innocents. At least we know that he also wanted to have the bigger card, like Doran, and simply not rush into a battle that could have dragged Dorne and caused it death and sorrow. He caused that to himself, but no one else died for him. He died alone, answering for his own.

And, Arianne is, I believe, mixing up being popular and being loved with inspiring loyalty when it really matters, and what her friends and inexperienced people believed with what Lords actually wanted and what her own uncle wanted. Of course a popular princess is going to be loved by the people, and they will probably follow her to war just based on that. But... that's a good thing? In fact, do Lords even want that? Why would they? A war meant them to loss not only their men and people but money, resources and even their lives. Dorne fights when they need to fight, and they don't submit themselves for others to rule them but that is not the same than going to war out of spite. If anything, Doran has the appeal of his bannermen because he, unlike other Lords of Westeros, isn't sending them to fight and lose. They know they HAVE to, at some point, enter the war, and Doran has waited for the right moment.

[Mal Malenkirk]

I'd just ask the people screaming "to spears" and pelting Doran with citrus :dunno: .

Oh, I wouldn't. They are unlikely to be representative and since they have nothing better to do with their day, they are unlikely to be the gainfully employed people on the back of whom your war effort will rest.

We have a soccer team in Montreal that more or less survive in general indifference but that has a group of hardcore followers able when riled up to create the illusion we are a soccer town. But we're not. The soccer team is nothing compare to our hockey team. I'll know this has changed the day my mother will know the names of the soccer players and inquire about the results of the team instead of about those of the Montreal Canadiens (our hockey team with a fanatical following), then I'll know we are a soccer town. It's not the fanatics that matter, it's the mass.

Similarly, when we'll see common folk mothers urge their sons to defend the honor of the country, then I'll know Dorne is on board, heart and souls. Hot blooded fools throwing fruits at figure of authority, we have those everwhere, in every governments, no matter the approval rating. They mean nothing.

[SeanF]

Similarly, when we'll see common folk mothers urge their sons to defend the honor of the country, then I'll know Dorne is on board, heart and souls. Hot blooded fools throwing fruits at figure of authority, we have those everwhere, in every governments, no matter the approval rating. They mean nothing.

Dorne is probably the sort of place where mothers tell their sons "with your shield, or on it."

[Mal Malenkirk]

Dorne is probably the sort of place where mothers tell their sons "with your shield, or on it."

:lol: Maybe. We'll see. They have undisputably a strong history of fiercely defending their territory but I am not aware of a rich a military tradition of going to war, if you catch my distinction. They are not Sparta, to use your reference. (Err, I think that was your reference. Too lazy to look it up).

[voodooqueen126]

Really, truly awesome job here :cheers: I look forward to keeping up with this re-read as best I can. So many things have already been so adroitly touched on here by our resident Dorne experts that I feel I have a shameful amount to add aside from this token bowing smiley: :bowdown:

I will mention on this note...

Really great catch, and it reminded me of something we picked up on earlier in the Cat re-read (shameless plug) that not only are these characters outsiders to this culture, we as readers are outsiders as well, so our introduction to this place is a bit more... like we're tiptoeing into the pool as opposed to doing a cannonball because we're piggybacking with someone who is also very curious/new to this place (or skeptical/cynical in Arys case, respectful/admiring in Hotah's case). It's used by GRRM in several different places all throughout the series but it works exceptionally well here, I feel.

I also love that Arianne resorts to the damsel in distress only as a last and final (almost desperate) resort. As has already been wonderfully analyzed, it speaks to her character wonderfully. The similarities between her and Cersei appear at first to be plentiful, but that's only a shallow reading of the two, when under the surface there are very different things going on. Nice work again, keep up the great job!

A huge difference between Cersei and Arianne, is that Cersei just wants power for herself. Cersei regards herself as an exception to the rule that women are clucking hens.

Arianne wants to defend Dornish Law (maybe even expand it to KL), avenge a rape victim and take down a regime known to be vile.

So her seduction of Arys maybe cold, but so what? His fault for being fooled.

[Julia Martell]

A huge difference between Cersei and Arianne, is that Cersei just wants power for herself. Cersei regards herself as an exception to the rule that women are clucking hens.

Arianne wants to defend Dornish Law (maybe even expand it to KL), avenge a rape victim and take down a regime known to be vile.

So her seduction of Arys maybe cold, but so what? His fault for being fooled.

I suggest you check out Cheb’s thought on the comparison between Cersei and Arianne. It’s about halfway through this doorstop of an essay. (You should totally read the rest of it too, as a “summary" of everything we’ve been talking about.) The section is called Arianne and Sex: Combatting the Femme-Fatale.

[voodooqueen126]

Ser Daemon is one of the best fighters in Dorne. And, clearly a highly intelligent man. He's a good choice. I admit, I can't see the point of sending Elia who seems a complete pain in the arse. If one is looking for secrecy, one has to take the risk of sending out a small party.

It's quite possible that there's no one in Dorne who would recognise Jon Connington. He left Westeros 18 years ago. We take for granted, in real life, that we have plenty of pictures of people. In medieval societies, there were often real problems with recognition.

As seen in the famous legal case of Martin Guerre

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

A huge difference between Cersei and Arianne, is that Cersei just wants power for herself. Cersei regards herself as an exception to the rule that women are clucking hens.

Arianne wants to defend Dornish Law (maybe even expand it to KL), avenge a rape victim and take down a regime known to be vile.

So her seduction of Arys maybe cold, but so what? His fault for being fooled.

Cersei wants a throne she has no legal rights to. Arianne wants what should be hers according to law. That's an important difference.

[SeanF]

:lol: Maybe. We'll see. They have undisputably a strong history of fiercely defending their territory but I am not aware of a rich a military tradition of going to war, if you catch my distinction. They are not Sparta, to use your reference. (Err, I think that was your reference. Too lazy to look it up).

I do however, take your point about Ellaria Sand, who in my view is speaking for the author. Just because a people want war, it doesn't mean their leaders should give it to them.

[SeanF]

A huge difference between Cersei and Arianne, is that Cersei just wants power for herself. Cersei regards herself as an exception to the rule that women are clucking hens.

Arianne wants to defend Dornish Law (maybe even expand it to KL), avenge a rape victim and take down a regime known to be vile.

So her seduction of Arys maybe cold, but so what? His fault for being fooled.

Yes. Prior to the reread, I viewed Arianne as being Cersei without the cruelty. Even without the cruelty, though, there are important differences. For one thing, Cersei would take no responsibility for the failure of the QM plot. Someone else (probably Ser Arys) would be to blame.

[Mithras]

Yes. Prior to the reread, I viewed Arianne as being Cersei without the cruelty. Even without the cruelty, though, there are important differences. For one thing, Cersei would take no responsibility for the failure of the QM plot. Someone else (probably Ser Arys) would be to blame.

Yes and Cersei would whitewash Darkstar because he is freakin hot.

Though Arianne still thinks that he is sweet poison.

[Chebyshov]

There's also the whole, Cersei is a poster child for internalized misogyny whereas Arianne is actually an empowered female thing. Not that it's a difference that matters nearly as much as Arianne's continual self-doubt and deprecation vs. Cersei's inability to self-reflect, or (post QM plot failure) Arianne's number one priority being the well-being of those she's involved in her schemes (Cedra, her co-conspirators) and vs. say, Cersei's treatment of the Blue Bard or the Kettleblacks. Fuck, Cersei is willing to throw anyone under the bus to get out of her position, whereas Arianne tells Doran outright, "the buck stops here."

“I ask leniency only for my friends.”

“How noble of you.”

“What they did they did for love for me. They do not deserve to die on Ghaston Grey.”

Fuck you, Doran, and your Martell Sass. It was noble!

This, vs. say, Cersei watching the Blue Bard being tortured and thinking:

Yes. Cersei blamed Margaery Tyrell for this. If not for her, Wat might have lived a long and fruitful life, singing his little songs and bedding pig girls and crofter’s daughters. Her scheming forced this on me. She has soiled me with her treachery.

[Mal Malenkirk]

I do however, take your point about Ellaria Sand, who in my view is speaking for the author. Just because a people want war, it doesn't mean their leaders should give it to them.

A good point. It does feel like Ellaria in that specific scene might have been articulating plainly what Martin thinks of the mess. Which suggests maybe we won't see too much more of her in the future, because Martin doesn't seem like an author who wants to be this transparent about what he thinks too often by using portevoix routinely. Another similar instance would be I believe the amazing monologue about the broken men by that travelling septon with Brienne. I noted earlier that Martin often obfuscate the POV of the smallfolk but that is a strong counter example (probably strongest of the whole serie).

[JonCon's Red Beard]

no, no, noooo... Arianne is our little princess, she's the people's princess... Cersei is Maegor/Baelor/Aerion with teats =(