Theon Turncloak's Future

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

Here's to him becoming the true King of the Iron Islands, but he's probably going to die unfortunately.

[Colonel Green]

Theon's current physical condition makes kingship seem pretty much impossible to me. It just stretches beyond what I would consider plausible, considering the warrior culture of the Ironborn.

Theon is one of those characters whose fate I have a hard time predicting. As of right now his story feels like it's coming to a close, but I have no clear idea what a fitting close would be; simply being executed clearly isn't it. If he is going to die, it will be on some sort of redemptive note. If he lives longer, I don't have any great clue what his role will be.

[King Hodor IV]

What if he already has a kid? I do not think Bran is going to sacrifice him at the weir wood trees, although that is possible. I think Bran will speak to Theon and Stannis via weir wood to help them or Theon will be sacrificed and the blood of Theon is used to revive Jon via bran magic? I am thinking out of the box a bit but I think Theon could survive the Battle of Ice and might just have a huge redemption.

[SnowHeart]

Couldn't bear it if he died, just love the guy too much now.

I like the 'what is dead may never die' link, perhaps to do with all the ghosts in winterfell imagry

[JLE]

Theon and Stannis have a weird thing in common.

Both of them have a "rightful claim" to be a king.

- Stannis not only as Robert's brother (since all Robert-and-Cersei's children are bastards), but if you apply the law against incest to monarchs as well, the rightful heir to the Targaryen claim (as was Robert before him): since the recently-released A World Of Ice And Fire reveals that King Aerys himself was born of incest - which was not, in fact, previously revealed, and thus makes him legally a bastard (and, of course, all his own children by Rhaella too). Only by invoking a monarchial privilege of being above the law - which in turn would make Aerys "right" to be able to execute, torture, maim and burn whoever he wanted, whenever he wanted - could Aerys's kingship be legal.

- Theon, as the rightful heir to the Iron Isles, both by birthright (Balon's eldest surviving son) and precedent: not being present at the kingsmoot, he was not there to stake his claim, as by rights he should have been.

Both of them also, despite this "rightful" claim, are not wanted by their own people.

- Stannis can't even get all of the Stormlands to support him. He is winning the support of the North - and I think, if he drives the Boltons out of Winterfell, and his own man Davos comes back with a living Stark heir to the castle, the North will bend the knee to him, understanding the impracticality of actually crowning Rickon: but Kings' Landing will not have him, nor most of the southern lands.

- Theon's crippled state (plus, obviously, the fact that he is now incapable of siring any further heirs of his own) would give him no chance of actually succeeding at a re-convened kingsmoot. If he returned to the Iron Islands and demanded the calling of a new moot, then even if he had Aeron's backing (and even if Aeron succeeded in keeping him safe from Euron until a moot could be held), then Euron would win. Until a moot is held, however, Theon can keep a claim that he is a king "in potentia", even if not in actuality.

Both have potential heirs who have their own problems, but might be more to their people's taste.

- Shireen Baratheon is a child, and disfigured by sickness at that. This may well mean that she struggles to find a husband - of any kind - which would mean a potential succession crisis in the making if she thus has no chance of children. HOWEVER, if a male claimant can take the throne, they could theoretically offer "for the good of the realm" to marry Shireen, which would give her a chance. Tommen is probably out of the question, but Shireen could conceivably marry Aegon if Stannis knew of his existence and believed him to be the real thing (which he probably is not). And if some great magical event happens that ends up curing her of her disease / disfigurement, then anything is possible (and remember, this is an epic fantasy novel: nobody ever introduces The Incurable Disease without a view to someone getting a miraculously magical cure from it.)

- Theon has no children, but can pass on his valid claim to Asha. Whose own claim at the First Kingsmoot, of course, would be "invalid" given that it was made while Theon was alive but not present to press a claim - just like Euron's was: but if Theon dies and names her as officially heir to his claim, it gives Asha a second chance at a kingsmoot that she would not otherwise have. A contest between Euron on his own, and Asha-with-Theon's-backing, would be a different beast to one between Euron on his own, Asha on his own, and Victarion complicating things with his own claim.

In short: Stannis and Theon both have a claim to be kings. They cannot live as kings, but they can die as kings.

Melisandre: "Two kings to wake the dragon"...

I think Stannis is, for now, going to keep Theon alive, and spare him from execution at the heart tree when it starts talking back (through Bran and/or Bloodraven), until the Boltons are beaten (I believe he is going to trick his way into Winterfell by allowing the faking of his death): but the two of them will die - in fire and blood, and possibly by their own volition - in whatever brings Jon Snow back from the dead. Possibly Theon, in blood, as a convicted traitor finally receiving his long-postponed sentence, but it will be seen as a release from his torments: and Stannis in fire to follow, possibly after being faced with the choice attributed to the legend of Azor Ahai - "slay one innocent, that is most dear to you, and become the Hero who drives the Others back" - and making a different choice: to save or spare his own Nissa-Nissa equivalent (namely his daughter Shireen - who I suspect Melisandre will eventually try to burn, for lack of other royal blood to give to the flames), offering his own life in exchange, and bringing power to his red sword so that it can *become* the true Lightbringer, to be wielded by the reborn dragon - Jon Snow (Rhaegar's bastard), walking out alive from what was supposed to be his funeral pyre.

[Aaron of Doomed Valyria]

He seems fated to die, which I imagine means he won't. Dying at the crofters village would also make that little story about the invalidity of the kingsmoot moot pointless.

[JLE]

Yeah. If he dies at the crofters' village, then the story of the kingsmoot's invalidity is pointless. He has to survive at least for long enough to stake a claim from a distance, and possibly to nominate an heir (who, since he cannot sire a son, must be Asha), so that a second kingsmoot has a chance of having a different result to the first.

If Euron meets Theon at a kingsmoot, and it comes into direct competition for votes, Euron will win. Theon has nothing to offer.

But Theon is the only person who wasn't actually *there*. Anyone else who was there, either made a claim and was rejected, or did not stake a claim. So the only person who can dispute the result is Theon. However, he has no chance of victory himself.

But he could still claim that his own vote - or his nomination of an heir - might have swayed the opinions of others. Thus, he has to survive long enough to give his public backing to another candidate who can therefore challenge Euron. Asha is the only realistic possibility, since Victarion is off chasing dragons. Stannis will spare him at the heart tree for long enough that he could make his views known on supporting Asha.

Asha, in turn, is possibly the only Greyjoy that the North could make peace with. The Glovers were treated with reasonable civility when she took Deepwood Motte: the place wasn't sacked and burned, unlike Winterfell. And she also can't be accused of being a turncloak, not having the history with the Starks that Theon had. If Theon escapes, then even if he takes charge of the Iron Isles - which I think he cannot do (see above) - then he has no future, because there can be no peace between the North and Iron Isles while Theon lives, and certainly not while he rules: the price of peace would be his death, and he knows it. All he can do is give his backing to another candidate and hope that it will sway the vote for *that* candidate at a second kingsmoot.

In any case Theon has no hope of escape - in a crippled state, the only way he *can* leave Stannis's army is to die or to be recaptured by Ramsay (and I hope at least that he dies rather than that.) Asha has seen the stupidity of the Iron Isles' attack on the North: she, unlike her brother, has hope either of escape (since she is uninjured) or ransom: and she has the ability to make peace with them if she were only given the authority. Theon's voice might stand a chance of swaying the ironborn to give her that authority, if he lives long enough to speak it in a place where enough others can hear. (The one he really needs to convince is Aeron, who backed the wrong man - Victarion - at the last moot.)

[Aaron of Doomed Valyria]

Theons life is important too because he's a witness to the massacre that the boltons perpetrated @ winter fell also. Although that's not likely to fly.

[Justin Amey]

Thre is a term called "Deus Ex Machina" Wherein a divine plot or entity comes in and steers a plot in a completely different direction. That is the only way i see Theon getting out of that mess. I seriously doubts Theon will get that lucky for that to happen tho.

[SynthFG]

Theons life is important too because he's a witness to the massacre that the boltons perpetrated @ winter fell also. Although that's not likely to fly.

Stannis's army is full of survivors of that massacre,

They came pouring out of the wolfs wood to join him after he took deepwood mott

[JonBranRickon]

I think he will live an be a loyal servant of house Stark. The only real family he ever had. No chance he goes back to house Greyjoy. Nothing good has ever happened to him there.

[JLE]

The idea of challenging a kingsmoot wouldn't have been brought up if it's going to turn out to be meaningless. Somehow, the fact that Theon can actually claim to be the rightful "king" of the Ironborn will have to mean something.

However, since there is zero chance of them actually accepting him as leader at a kingsmoot - or of his ever being able to command an army in person to take command of the Iron Islands by force - then the only way his "kingship" can be important is:

(1) To pass on his claim to another - someone who was at the kingsmoot and lost it (namely Asha), in order to enable her to stand a chance at a second kingsmoot.

(2) To die as a king, even though he could not live as a king. Melisandre is already under the impression of "two kings must die to wake the dragon" - she is hoping that the Boltons, shorn of their Lannister protectors in the south, will claim the title of King in the North, and then be killed by Stannis, father and son in that order so both die as kings: however, this is likely to be forestalled by the fact that Roose Bolton will never in fact claim the throne (I think his son will murder him before he can stake any such claim, and in turn not live to make a claim himself: besides he is a bastard whom even Roose cannot be totally certain is his, only the eyes are in common between Roose and Ramsay, nothing else.) Who is in a better position than Theon to die as someone with the technical claim to be king, son of a king, and descendant of many previous kings from the days when the Iron Islands were independent - and deserve his death, and possibly even go to it willingly as long as it is a quick death and release from his torments?

[memeka]

Theon's chances to make it to a kingsmoot are very slim. At this point in time, logistically, I think the walkers will get to the iron islands before theon and asha can.

Count the days for them to get free, make it to the shore, find a boat, sail to Pyke.

After that many days, I think they will only find wights there. With Jon Snow gone, I see the Wall's magic failing very soon, and Westeros invaded.

Sometimes, I even consider that Dany's army won't make it to westeros. There will be fighting wights all over the world at those latitudes, and only dragon riders will move around freely (so Dany will get to Westeros, but w/o her army and only to see what the walkers are doing there; meet Jon, the local resistance leader; find solutions together; coordinate attacks from the North and Roynar against the walkers).

[Endymion I Targaryen]

I don't buy Theon returning to Iron Islands.His story seems to relate more and more with the Stark family.Maybe the kingsmoot can be repeated by Aeron.I think Theon will avoid sacrifice due to Bran's help(Bran has already spoken to him),see Rickon return to Winterfell and then go to the Wall,either as Stannis's hostage or take the black.I believe he will become the major Wall POV.

[INCBlackbird]

The man doesn't have a penis!

so what?

[Justin Amey]

Theon and Stannis have a weird thing in common.

Both of them have a "rightful claim" to be a king.

- Stannis not only as Robert's brother (since all Robert-and-Cersei's children are bastards), but if you apply the law against incest to monarchs as well, the rightful heir to the Targaryen claim (as was Robert before him): since the recently-released A World Of Ice And Fire reveals that King Aerys himself was born of incest - which was not, in fact, previously revealed, and thus makes him legally a bastard (and, of course, all his own children by Rhaella too). Only by invoking a monarchial privilege of being above the law - which in turn would make Aerys "right" to be able to execute, torture, maim and burn whoever he wanted, whenever he wanted - could Aerys's kingship be legal.

- Theon, as the rightful heir to the Iron Isles, both by birthright (Balon's eldest surviving son) and precedent: not being present at the kingsmoot, he was not there to stake his claim, as by rights he should have been.

Both of them also, despite this "rightful" claim, are not wanted by their own people.

- Stannis can't even get all of the Stormlands to support him. He is winning the support of the North - and I think, if he drives the Boltons out of Winterfell, and his own man Davos comes back with a living Stark heir to the castle, the North will bend the knee to him, understanding the impracticality of actually crowning Rickon: but Kings' Landing will not have him, nor most of the southern lands.

- Theon's crippled state (plus, obviously, the fact that he is now incapable of siring any further heirs of his own) would give him no chance of actually succeeding at a re-convened kingsmoot. If he returned to the Iron Islands and demanded the calling of a new moot, then even if he had Aeron's backing (and even if Aeron succeeded in keeping him safe from Euron until a moot could be held), then Euron would win. Until a moot is held, however, Theon can keep a claim that he is a king "in potentia", even if not in actuality.

Both have potential heirs who have their own problems, but might be more to their people's taste.

- Shireen Baratheon is a child, and disfigured by sickness at that. This may well mean that she struggles to find a husband - of any kind - which would mean a potential succession crisis in the making if she thus has no chance of children. HOWEVER, if a male claimant can take the throne, they could theoretically offer "for the good of the realm" to marry Shireen, which would give her a chance. Tommen is probably out of the question, but Shireen could conceivably marry Aegon if Stannis knew of his existence and believed him to be the real thing (which he probably is not). And if some great magical event happens that ends up curing her of her disease / disfigurement, then anything is possible (and remember, this is an epic fantasy novel: nobody ever introduces The Incurable Disease without a view to someone getting a miraculously magical cure from it.)

- Theon has no children, but can pass on his valid claim to Asha. Whose own claim at the First Kingsmoot, of course, would be "invalid" given that it was made while Theon was alive but not present to press a claim - just like Euron's was: but if Theon dies and names her as officially heir to his claim, it gives Asha a second chance at a kingsmoot that she would not otherwise have. A contest between Euron on his own, and Asha-with-Theon's-backing, would be a different beast to one between Euron on his own, Asha on his own, and Victarion complicating things with his own claim.

In short: Stannis and Theon both have a claim to be kings. They cannot live as kings, but they can die as kings.

Melisandre: "Two kings to wake the dragon"...

I think Stannis is, for now, going to keep Theon alive, and spare him from execution at the heart tree when it starts talking back (through Bran and/or Bloodraven), until the Boltons are beaten (I believe he is going to trick his way into Winterfell by allowing the faking of his death): but the two of them will die - in fire and blood, and possibly by their own volition - in whatever brings Jon Snow back from the dead. Possibly Theon, in blood, as a convicted traitor finally receiving his long-postponed sentence, but it will be seen as a release from his torments: and Stannis in fire to follow, possibly after being faced with the choice attributed to the legend of Azor Ahai - "slay one innocent, that is most dear to you, and become the Hero who drives the Others back" - and making a different choice: to save or spare his own Nissa-Nissa equivalent (namely his daughter Shireen - who I suspect Melisandre will eventually try to burn, for lack of other royal blood to give to the flames), offering his own life in exchange, and bringing power to his red sword so that it can *become* the true Lightbringer, to be wielded by the reborn dragon - Jon Snow (Rhaegar's bastard), walking out alive from what was supposed to be his funeral pyre.

:ack: Stannis getting aegon marry Shireen, really. Aegon was raised on the knowlegde that the Bartheons Betrayed the Targ utterly, there will be no marrying anyone whatsoever

[sj4iy]

"Theon Turncloak's future"

...is very short.

[Lord Lannister]

Thre is a term called "Deus Ex Machina" Wherein a divine plot or entity comes in and steers a plot in a completely different direction. That is the only way i see Theon getting out of that mess. I seriously doubts Theon will get that lucky for that to happen tho.

Agreed. There's really no plausible reason for Stannis to spare Theon after all the crap he's done. Even Asha seems to have known that's a lost cause and just argued for a merciful death. I also can't see Stannis being lax enough with security to let Asha or someone get away with him. The only possible explanation for him getting away would seem to be the death of Stannis and the chaos that would cause, which would open a whole other can of worms.

[The Drunkard]

Agreed. There's really no plausible reason for Stannis to spare Theon after all the crap he's done. Even Asha seems to have known that's a lost cause and just argued for a merciful death. I also can't see Stannis being lax enough with security to let Asha or someone get away with him. The only possible explanation for him getting away would seem to be the death of Stannis and the chaos that would cause, which would open a whole other can of worms.

I tend to think Stannis will hold off on burning Theon for quite some time. He's still milking him for information, and not at a frantic pace either, which suggests to me that he intends to keep him hanging around for a while. My guess is that he won't kill him until after Winterfell is taken, where his insider knowledge will definitely have no more value, and by that point a number of things could have changed that would make Theon's death unnecessary. One, he could have the Boltons imprisoned, and burning Ramsay and/or Roose would probably be enough to sate the northerner's desire for revenge. Two, Euron and the ironborn could be in a stronger position down south, making Theon's ability to challenge Euron's kingship a more promising idea than fighting him head on (or a way to provoke him).

Melisandre is already under the impression of "two kings must die to wake the dragon"

There's nothing suggesting so. That line comes from a feverish queens man being treated by Aemon, not Melisandre, Stannis or anyone in the know. Stannis and her rarely share their plans with the grunts, and someone would have made note of Melisandre if she was performing rituals talking about the burning of two kings. The queens men make up shit about sacrifices all the time, like during the march when some think Stannis intends to burn Asha for her kings blood, when he gives no indication that he wants to do so, or even thinks she has royal blood.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Just out of curiosity....

What would happen to Theon if Ramsay somehow recovered him?