Heresy 139 [World of Ice and Fire Spoilers]

[wolfmaid7]

I meant to include something along the line of your last paragraph here. If two strong skinchangers (or a completely absorbed skinchanger) were inside their animals, could they communicate 'verbally'?

Actually, that happened between Bran and Ghost-Jon. Jon didn't know what was going on, Bran was still green with his 'powers' and was not sure if it was real or dream. We don't know the mechanics of the back and forth, but how would it work between two people who are knowledgeable?

With Jon's chance of a first hand lesson in skinchanging coming soon, this could be... something

That is a good question and there's a few ways this would go without it being to "Narnia" with the animals and such talking verbally for people to hear. I do think its simple as the human proxy hearing and understanding the speech internally.Naturally though atlease when it will come to interpreting for human ears the human proxy could understand the "song" of the wolves as the language it is.

I would hate to see Direwolves actually talk (maybe Ghost :D ) Alas,i don't think GRRM would do that but i believe there is speech back and forth between the proxy and the familiar that may have served as the basis for the legends of them speaking with a "human voice".

If anything the Jon/Ghost relationship seems to be the "one' that will break that barrier.

[Urrax2]

Anybody watch the GRRM appearance at the 92d St Y re World? It's 90 minutes long and I haven't faced it yet. Any good SSMs?

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/1249127/GeorgeRRMartinLive

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Anybody watch the GRRM appearance at the 92d St Y re World? It's 90 minutes long and I haven't faced it yet. Any good SSMs?

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/1249127/GeorgeRRMartinLive

I viewed the first half. Nothing new except for the World book discussions.

The Iron Throne in the world book is the one that Martin actually visualized. All the rest were found wanting. In the WoIaF, One Maester is actually GRRM, the other is Elio and Linda.

[The Reckoner]

re the magic that transformed the first men into the Others: perhaps the melted ice dragons? Since we have dragon skulls in King's Landing, I would assume that it is the flesh which melts. Perhaps imbibing, or injecting, the ice dragons altered the first men, creating the Others.

[Black Crow]

That sounds like the Corvids. Though I could see it in skinchanged humans (Bran speaking through Hodor) or giants.

I'm with the ravens. We do after all have the stories of their originally being able to carry verbal messages and I've suggested before that they may be the interpreters between the various elements - whether they do it by mimicking sounds or through waking crow dreams.

[Black Crow]

Just as a random afterthought on the Pact we've noted how the Reeds' oath individually links earth and water and bronze and iron before both together swear by Ice and Fire. I think that this is the Song of Ice and Fire.

We've touched on this before and identified earth and water with the children and bronze and iron with men, but we also have Maester Aemon's assertion about how cold preserves and fire consumes and I think that this is linked into it. It is the joining of of the first two and a balancing of the preserving of the natural order and the old ways with man's desire to consume, and therefore I'd say does link the children and the old powers with Ice - and all that implies.

[Mithras]

The CotF introduced skinchanging to humans by a marriage between the LH and a female CotF. Their son became the Lightbringer and he used his gift to become the first dragonrider. The Lightbringer restored balance by driving the Others to the far North where they belong.

After the victory, the tale was spread to everywhere.

People exploited this idea. They fell into dark magic to enslave dragons to opress; cross-breed different races to produce monsters etc.

This "accursed" dimension of "dragon as the ultimate weapon" is hinted by George with references to Moorcock.

Elric's "accursed" sword is called Stormbringer (similar to Lightbringer) which ends up killing everyone loved by Elric. Nissa Nissa anyone?

Two names of AA are Hyrkoon and Eldric the Shadowchaser. Change one letter and they become Yyrkoon and Elric.

Not to mention: Elric is one of the countless avatars of the multiversal Eternal Hero, whose fate is to bring balance to the eternal struggle between Law and Chaos. This should hint that the myhts of all those heroes who fought the darkness during a Long Night stem from a single hero.

[butterbumps!]

Well said, butterbumps! As it turns out, this notion of power being "a mummer's trick... a shadow on the wall" would be an integral part of my working theory that Littlefinger is Jon Snow's father. Or perhaps more to the point, I'm coming to view this claim (about power) as integral to Martin's own project as storyteller, and a theme illustrated through reader engagement in particular narrative puzzles. The identity of Jon's parents being one clear example.

In your LF theory, would Ned know that LF was the father? Like, is the idea that Ned thought Jon was Rhaegar's kid, and that's why he kept it secret, but in truth, Jon was fathered by LF?

I think a major application of the power deconstruction/ reconstruction is in the question of the red, black and white dragons-- as in, Dany, Aegon and Jon (I'm still in the R+L camp, lol). The interplay of the 3 really interests me. Dany is the visible Targ, who also has dragons; dragons represent "real" power, but aren't guarantors of obedience, as we see. Aegon, a likely Blackfyre in my view, would have a better claim than hers were he true, and looks every bit the part of Rhaegar's son. Then there's Jon, who likely has a better claim than both, but he'd likely never identify as a Targ, nor would anyone truly believe he's Rhaegar's son (not to even mention legit son), especially not in a post-Aegon reveal context (because how many long lost Rhaegar's sons will people accept?)

[Clueless Northman]

I viewed the first half. Nothing new except for the World book discussions.

The Iron Throne in the world book is the one that Martin actually visualized. All the rest were found wanting. In the WoIaF, One Maester is actually GRRM, the other is Elio and Linda.

GRRM is a Maester in the book? I would've rather thought he could be some septon - since Barth is the closest to a nearly-omniscient narrator we might have met in the whole of Westeros - apart probably from Bloodraven and COTF, but these would be heavily unreliable.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

GRRM is a Maester in the book? I would've rather thought he could be some septon - since Barth is the closest to a nearly-omniscient narrator we might have met in the whole of Westeros - apart probably from Bloodraven and COTF, but these would be heavily unreliable.

I was speaking of the Wold of Ice and Fire. I don't remember the names, and I have not recieved my book yet to look up the names. One Maester that is giving out info was created by Elio and Linda. They used this Maester to elaborate on history and lore. The other Maester's versions are actually GRRM's input. Martin stated that his stuff is reliable, but much of it was left out of the World Book. That info will be used at a later time for the GRRMillion.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I'm with the ravens. We do after all have the stories of their originally being able to carry verbal messages and I've suggested before that they may be the interpreters between the various elements - whether they do it by mimicking sounds or through waking crow dreams.

I also think the ravens are interpreters of a sort.

I believe one raven spoke someone else's words to Bran and company outside The Cave. Cannot remember the exact word, but the raven told them to come inside. It may be more of a suggestion to the bird than actually using the the birds tongue.

Then there is Hodor. We know for sure that Bran spoke aloud through Hodor while in the cave with Meera and Jojen. Bran has full control of Hodor.

What I am more curious about is the inner dialogue with Bran and Jon. Jon is up north of the wall, Bran hiding in the crypts reaches out to Jon through Ghost and has a small conversation there. Bran knows what Ghost-Jon is 'saying' . This is a skinchanger speaking through the animal. I think it may happen again.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

In your LF theory, would Ned know that LF was the father? Like, is the idea that Ned thought Jon was Rhaegar's kid, and that's why he kept it secret, but in truth, Jon was fathered by LF?

I think a major application of the power deconstruction/ reconstruction is in the question of the red, black and white dragons-- as in, Dany, Aegon and Jon (I'm still in the R+L camp, lol). The interplay of the 3 really interests me. Dany is the visible Targ, who also has dragons; dragons represent "real" power, but aren't guarantors of obedience, as we see. Aegon, a likely Blackfyre in my view, would have a better claim than hers were he true, and looks every bit the part of Rhaegar's son. Then there's Jon, who likely has a better claim than both, but he'd likely never identify as a Targ, nor would anyone truly believe he's Rhaegar's son (not to even mention legit son), especially not in a post-Aegon reveal context (because how many long lost Rhaegar's sons will people accept?)

In the LF theory... I think Ned would probably know something, yes. But not necessarily. Love your tri-colored dragons image - though I gotta be honest, it leaves me picturing some kind of White Stripes album cover. :)

I've been known to emphasize just how important it is for an author to maintain his readers' trust. I still believe that relationship is important - and I do think that (at this point) many of Martin's readers will feel betrayed if it turns out that Rhaegar is not the baby-daddy. That said, my stance on Martin will be more forgiving than most because it seems to me that he's given us fair warning - in the Riddle of Power, and the parable of the Sealord's Cat, to name just a couple of specific places. To a certain extent, I think Martin has engaged us all in a metafictional experiment, or a demonstration, of the dynamics of storytelling and interpretation. In the case of Lyanna and Jon Snow, the experience and conclusions drawn by the reader-audience become Martin's illustration of the shape that Westerosi public opinion might have taken, had Ned not kept his secrets and hidden Lyanna's child. Which is not to say that the commonly accepted story and the truth Ned told would have amounted to the same thing. In fact, I think the point is that they would not. Just look at how things went over for Davos and Stannis:

"How did the commons take the news of Cersei's incest?"

"While we were among them they shouted for King Stannis. I cannot speak for what they said once we had sailed."

"So you do not think they believed?"

"When I was smuggling, I learned that some men believe everything and some nothing. We met both sorts. And there is another tale being spread as well—"

"Yes." Stannis bit off the word. "Selyse has given me horns, and tied a fool's bells to the end of each. My daughter fathered by a halfwit jester! A tale as vile as it is absurd. Renly threw it in my teeth when we met to parley. You would need to be as mad as Patchface to believe such a thing."

"That may be so, my liege… but whether they believe the story or no, they delight to tell it." In many places it had come before them, poisoning the well for their own true tale... (2.42, DAVOS)

What is the tale of Patchface and Selyse but a mummer's trick, a shadow on the wall? Yet what chance does the truth stand, next to the power (and "delight") of such a story?

I'd say Martin's doing something similar, though in a much broader sense, with his constructed histories and cultural mythologies. That is, engaging his readers in an experience that reflects and impacts our views on storytelling, and our understandings of the relationship between truth on the one hand, and power on the other.

[butterbumps!]

In the LF theory... I think Ned would probably know something, yes. But not necessarily. Love your tri-colored dragons image - though I gotta be honest, it leaves me picturing some kind of White Stripes album cover. :)

I've been known to emphasize just how important it is for an author to maintain his readers' trust. I still believe that relationship is important - and I do think that (at this point) many of Martin's readers will feel betrayed if it turns out that Rhaegar is not the baby-daddy. That said, my stance on Martin will be more forgiving than most because it seems to me that he's given us fair warning - in the Riddle of Power, and the parable of the Sealord's Cat, among other ways. To a certain extent, I think Martin has engaged us all in a metafictional experiment, or demonstration, of the dynamics of storytelling and interpretation. In the case of Lyanna and Jon Snow, the experience and conclusions drawn by the reader-audience become Martin's illustration of the shape that Westerosi public opinion might have taken, had Ned not kept his secrets and hidden Lyanna's child. Which is not to say that the commonly accepted story and the truth Ned told would have amounted to the same thing. In fact, I think the point is that they would not. Just look at how things went over for Davos and Stannis:

"How did the commons take the news of Cersei's incest?"

"While we were among them they shouted for King Stannis. I cannot speak for what they said once we had sailed."

"So you do not think they believed?"

"When I was smuggling, I learned that some men believe everything and some nothing. We met both sorts. And there is another tale being spread as well—"

"Yes." Stannis bit off the word. "Selyse has given me horns, and tied a fool's bells to the end of each. My daughter fathered by a halfwit jester! A tale as vile as it is absurd. Renly threw it in my teeth when we met to parley. You would need to be as mad as Patchface to believe such a thing."

"That may be so, my liege… but whether they believe the story or no, they delight to tell it." In many places it had come before them, poisoning the well for their own true tale... (2.42, DAVOS)

What is the tale of Patchface and Selyse but a mummer's trick, a shadow on the wall? Yet what chance does the truth stand, next to the power of such a story?

lol, that's one of my favorite color palettes, I won't lie. it's very constructivist. In fact, I will take it upon myself to make some agit prop posters about this.

I agree that there's a twist in there about Jon's parentage, but I think I may disagree in where it resides. I think Martin really is giving us R+L=J, but shattering the idea that he's the "true heir," as well as the idea that his being the (imo, legit) son of Rhaegar will give him any sort of power.

So I think the twist here is really in that Martin's created a story with a "hidden heir," but the world he's created around that precludes the idea of a "true heir." There's no such thing as a "true heir" in this story-- will people truly be clamoring for a Targ restoration, and/ or who's really going to believe Jon's the legit heir to a Targ throne?

Further, Martin's created the character of Jon as someone who'd expressly reject claiming a Targ identity (not because he hates Targs, but because he's Ned's son no matter what, a Son of Winterfell, and foremost in his identity, a "bastard," which he's made a great strength.) More, it would not be in his interest to claim a Targ identity; doing so renders him the same as every other yahoo coming in to press their claim on the IT. As LC, a bastard not representing any specific House, and a figure of the North, Jon transcends those political divisions as a leader specifically against a common threat to all rather than someone seen in pursuit of self-advancement.

So I sympathize with the spirit behind your seeing an R+L alternative, but I think the alternative is actually that R+L won't make Jon the "true heir," or bring him any sort of power due to that lineage.

[alienarea]

lol, that's one of my favorite color palettes, I won't lie. it's very constructivist. In fact, I will take it upon myself to make some agit prop posters about this.

I agree that there's a twist in there about Jon's parentage, but I think I may disagree in where it resides. I think Martin really is giving us R+L=J, but shattering the idea that he's the "true heir," as well as the idea that his being the (imo, legit) son of Rhaegar will give him any sort of power.

So I think the twist here is really in that Martin's created a story with a "hidden heir," but the world he's created around that precludes the idea of a "true heir." There's no such thing as a "true heir" in this story-- will people truly be clamoring for a Targ restoration, and/ or who's really going to believe Jon's the legit heir to a Targ throne?

Further, Martin's created the character of Jon as someone who'd expressly reject claiming a Targ identity (not because he hates Targs, but because he's Ned's son no matter what, a Son of Winterfell, and foremost in his identity, a "bastard," which he's made a great strength.) More, it would not be in his interest to claim a Targ identity; doing so renders him the same as every other yahoo coming in to press their claim on the IT. As LC, a bastard not representing any specific House, and a figure of the North, Jon transcends those political divisions as a leader specifically against a common threat to all rather than someone seen in pursuit of self-advancement.

So I sympathize with the spirit behind your seeing an R+L alternative, but I think the alternative is actually that R+L won't make Jon the "true heir," or bring him any sort of power due to that lineage.

Don't want to derail this into another R+L=J, but if Daenerys is Fire and Jon Ice than Jon shouldn't be R+L but N+X with X being either wildling, corpse queen or Northern girl.

[butterbumps!]

Don't want to derail this into another R+L=J, but if Daenerys is Fire and Jon Ice than Jon shouldn't be R+L but N+X with X being either wildling, corpse queen or Northern girl.

Why is Jon "Ice"? I don't think Jon is pure Ice. Like Dany, he pushes the status quo. Where Dany is more "fire" (she's a revolutionary figure), Jon is less extreme-- a reformer, a mediator, figure of balance, etc.

I'm saying that he won't publicly recognize the fire side in name, but already we can see Jon as a figure of balance in deed, comprised of both parts fire and ice.

[Black Crow]

The CotF introduced skinchanging to humans by a marriage between the LH and a female CotF. Their son became the Lightbringer and he used his gift to become the first dragonrider. The Lightbringer restored balance by driving the Others to the far North where they belong.

After the victory, the tale was spread to everywhere.

People exploited this idea. They fell into dark magic to enslave dragons to opress; cross-breed different races to produce monsters etc.

This "accursed" dimension of "dragon as the ultimate weapon" is hinted by George with references to Moorcock.

Elric's "accursed" sword is called Stormbringer (similar to Lightbringer) which ends up killing everyone loved by Elric. Nissa Nissa anyone?

Two names of AA are Hyrkoon and Eldric the Shadowchaser. Change one letter and they become Yyrkoon and Elric.

Not to mention: Elric is one of the countless avatars of the multiversal Eternal Hero, whose fate is to bring balance to the eternal struggle between Law and Chaos. This should hint that the myhts of all those heroes who fought the darkness during a Long Night stem from a single hero.

We also have a Kermit and this is why I still think the reason all these heroes are being named is not to suggest that they are all different names for Azor Ahai the eternal champion, but that Azor Ahai is just one of many quite different legendary champions and that Mel and too many readers are barking up the wrong tree in looking to Jon Snow or anybody else being identified as the one true hero.

[Black Crow]

In the LF theory... I think Ned would probably know something, yes. But not necessarily. Love your tri-colored dragons image - though I gotta be honest, it leaves me picturing some kind of White Stripes album cover. :)

I've been known to emphasize just how important it is for an author to maintain his readers' trust. I still believe that relationship is important - and I do think that (at this point) many of Martin's readers will feel betrayed if it turns out that Rhaegar is not the baby-daddy. That said, my stance on Martin will be more forgiving than most because it seems to me that he's given us fair warning - in the Riddle of Power, and the parable of the Sealord's Cat, to name just a couple of specific places. To a certain extent, I think Martin has engaged us all in a metafictional experiment, or a demonstration, of the dynamics of storytelling and interpretation. In the case of Lyanna and Jon Snow, the experience and conclusions drawn by the reader-audience become Martin's illustration of the shape that Westerosi public opinion might have taken, had Ned not kept his secrets and hidden Lyanna's child. Which is not to say that the commonly accepted story and the truth Ned told would have amounted to the same thing. In fact, I think the point is that they would not. Just look at how things went over for Davos and Stannis:

"How did the commons take the news of Cersei's incest?"

"While we were among them they shouted for King Stannis. I cannot speak for what they said once we had sailed."

"So you do not think they believed?"

"When I was smuggling, I learned that some men believe everything and some nothing. We met both sorts. And there is another tale being spread as well—"

"Yes." Stannis bit off the word. "Selyse has given me horns, and tied a fool's bells to the end of each. My daughter fathered by a halfwit jester! A tale as vile as it is absurd. Renly threw it in my teeth when we met to parley. You would need to be as mad as Patchface to believe such a thing."

"That may be so, my liege… but whether they believe the story or no, they delight to tell it." In many places it had come before them, poisoning the well for their own true tale... (2.42, DAVOS)

What is the tale of Patchface and Selyse but a mummer's trick, a shadow on the wall? Yet what chance does the truth stand, next to the power (and "delight") of such a story?

I'd say Martin's doing something similar, though in a much broader sense, with his constructed histories and cultural mythologies. That is, engaging his readers in an experience that reflects and impacts our views on storytelling, and our understandings of the relationship between truth on the one hand, and power on the other.

I really do like that argument, and while the standard rebuttal in another place is that R+L=J isn't obvious to the casual reader and that GRRM never figured it would take so long to get this far and that in the meantime internet discussion has exploded... etc. etc... I'm not convinced by that argument at all. GRRM isn't writing such an intelligent and deeply researched story with so many shout-outs, just for the casual reader. It is a story with questions to be puzzled out. And in that context R+L=J is obvious and therefore too obvious, which is why the real questions to be asked concern the outcome and that I think comes down to Lya.

We all seem reasonably happy that she is the mother whom Jon seeks, so is it important that she rather than any of the names linked to Ned Stark is Jon's mother, ie; that he is [a] the son of a daughter of Winterfell, or is it more important he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen? If it is [a] then it probably doesn't matter whether his father is Rhaegar, Rumpelstiltskin or anybody else, beyond the first being a massive red herring.

There is of course the third alternative that both parents are of equal importance in which case R+L=J would make sense albeit there still seems to be an unhealthy assumption that Jon is therefore the rightful lawful heir to... what?

At all events and notwistanding protestations to the contrary I still can't help but agree that its a little too obvious.

[Frey family reunion]

We also have a Kermit and this is why I still think the reason all these heroes are being named is not to suggest that they are all different names for Azor Ahai the eternal champion, but that Azor Ahai is just one of many quite different legendary champions and that Mel and too many readers are barking up the wrong tree in looking to Jon Snow or anybody else being identified as the one true hero.

Moorcock's Elric series ending up having "crossovers" with some of Morrcock's heroes in other series. From what I can remember the premise was they were all champions of of order versus chaos or something like that. Perhaps GRRM is giving a little nod to Moorcocks' conceit, and adding his Azor Ahai as another champion of "order". ETA, nevermind I just got around to reading Antz' full post, where he already addresses this.

[Mithras]

Septon Barth speculated that Valyrians produced the dragons by cross-breeding wyverns and fire wyrms. Supposedly Maester Vanyon refuted this idea by proving that dragons existed in Westeros even in the earliest days, before the rise of Valyria.

Surely, Vanyon didnot have carbon dating to measure the age of dragonbones found in Westeros. His most likely explanation would be to show some runes and carvings about dragons done by the First Men during the Age of Heroes or even in the Dawn Age. He cannot rely on the songs and tales like Serwyn, Ser Crabb etc.

As a rule of thumb, I take what Septon Barth said in TWOIAF as the hard facts. Cross-breeding between races was mentioned in few places by Tormund (giants - humans) or Old Nan (humans - Others/demons) etc. In TWOIAF, we are given a lot of information about monstrous babies, stillbirths, deformities etc.

In short, there are a lot of "abominations".

Returning to cross-breeding wyverns and wyrms: Abomination was the favourite word of Haggon. Varamyr was a true abomination when he wore the skin of the she-wolf while the One-Eye took her.

Therefore, it makes sense if the gift of skinchanging was introduced by the CotF to humans in order to end the Long Night but later generations abused the gift by such atrocities. Not only skinchanging but blood magic might be a similar kind of power taken from the CotF and abused badly.

[Black Crow]

Moorcock's Elric series ending up having "crossovers" with some of Morrcock's heroes in other series. From what I can remember the premise was they were all champions of of order versus chaos or something like that. Perhaps GRRM is giving a little nod to Moorcocks' conceit, and adding his Azor Ahai as another champion of "order". ETA, nevermind I just got around to reading Antz' full post, where he already addresses this.

Oh indeed, hence the Eternal Champion tag, but while I think these multiple champions in the world book are an acknowledgment of Moorcock I still think that in this case the point is to demonstrate that Azor Ahai aint the only show in town and doesn't belong in Westeros. Mind you neither do the dragons and I can't help wondering, especially after seeing the pretty pictures in the World book just who is really in charge - the dragon or the rider?