Heresy 139 [World of Ice and Fire Spoilers]

[King Tyrion XX]

A little of topic: Will we hit heresy 200 before TWoW comes out?

Another 60 weeks? Dear Gods I hope not.

TWOW will drop just in time for Heresy 164.

[Black Crow]

I suppose this has already been covered here around, but since there was much talk about unreliable timeline, the World of Ice and Fire brings new interesting details.

Namely, the Yi Ti chapter pretty much confirms that the Long Night was more recent than said in Westeros.

It's explicitly stated that there were 11 dynasties after the Long Night, the shortest ones lasting 50 years (so, basically 2 out of 11 ruled for a century), the longest ruling 700 years (meaning 8 dynasties lasted from 55 to 690 years), and 4 interregnums, longest lasting a century.

If we do the math, we see that Tommen rules less than 6.000 years after the Long Night, and probably something like 4.500 years later.

Yi Ti being basically a copy of China, the oldest civilization, and therefore the one with the best records around, we can be pretty sure the whole ASOIAF timeline should be shortened by 1/3 to 1/2.

It's also being suspected that Westerosi records are massively unreliable for such old times, and indeed, the Andals couldn't have come in 6.000 years ago. It was a bit more recent than that.

Valyrian and Ghiscari records would be better, but still not perfect, so I wouldn't have a problem pushing ahead a bit the rise of Ghiscari empire - and Valyrian one as well.

Odds are that Ghis actually came to prominence shortly after the end of the Long Night - possibly because it was one of the areas that suffered the less from it...

We've been given ample indications in the books themselves that the original timelines are mince and that beyond say 1189 years ago its all mist and legend rather than history. The trick is to ignore the fabled dates in Westerosi history and try to relate it to what was happening elsewhere and, as you suggest, making connections between the Long Night and the rise of Ghis and then Valyria.

Nevertheless we're presented with a minor conundrum. GRRM has made it abundantly clear that this is about Westeros. External factors obviously impact on what has happened in the past and what's happening now in Westeros, but as GRRM has ruled out going either to Valyria or to Asshai, the resolution is going to lie in Westeros

This is why I'm beginning to wonder whether the presumed conflict between Ice and Fire is not the far too obvious business of an invasion by the Others being defeated by dragon fire, but rather that the balance was upset by Fire and Dragons and that it is Ice which needs to fight back, rather than the other way around.

[Black Crow]

Just as a minor aside on the shorter timelines. If the Wall is reckoned to be "only" 6,000 years old then the average tenure of the reputed 998 Lords Commander of the Nights watch has just dropped to 6 years apiece.

[Mace Cooterian]

A little of topic: Will we hit heresy 200 before TWoW comes out?

Another 60 weeks? Dear Gods I hope not.

TWOW will drop just in time for Heresy 164.

H164 sounds about right (depending on when TWOW actually gets released).

Based on the current rate of 6-7 days per Heresey thread, #200 should arrive in our Christmas stockings next year.

[Equilibrium]

What about daughters of Warg king? In my opinion that confirms theory that skinchanging goes through female line and that is the moment when Starks got the ability.

[Clueless Northman]

India claims a 200,000 year old civilization though it seems to be debatable whether India or Tibet have the oldest records.

In this case we know it's BS because written records don't go farther than 6-7.000 years at best, in Sumer. India and China having a bit more recent writing and records.

Just as a minor aside on the shorter timelines. If the Wall is reckoned to be "only" 6,000 years old then the average tenure of the reputed 998 Lords Commander of the Nights watch has just dropped to 6 years apiece.

Didn't Sam say he managed to track down a list of 600 Commanders, not 1.000? Would make an average of 8 to 9 years probably, and considering the harsh environment and frequent fights with wildlings, I'm not surprised Lords Commanders don't rule for 30 years each.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

In this case we know it's BS because written records don't go farther than 6-7.000 years at best, in Sumer. India and China having a bit more recent writing and records.

Didn't Sam say he managed to track down a list of 600 Commanders, not 1.000? Would make an average of 8 to 9 years probably, and considering the harsh environment and frequent fights with wildlings, I'm not surprised Lords Commanders don't rule for 30 years each.

Sam said the OLDEST list he found shows 674 LCs, which means it was written during...

[Mithras]

I think it is a simple job to list and count the crypts of Winterfell and use it to guess the age of the castle and everything else.

“There are lower levels. Older. The lowest level is partly collapsed, I hear. I have never been down there.”

[aDanceWithFlagons]

What about daughters of Warg king? In my opinion that confirms theory that skinchanging goes through female line and that is the moment when Starks got the ability.

While I will agree with you on the female line being important, I have to say I am not so sure about the Starks obtaining skinchanging from the Warg King.

I think the Starks ability to skinchange helped them defeat the Warg King and the other clans, tribes and kingdoms of the north. Especially if they were using direwolves in battle (maybe even crows) to overcome the enemies' skinchangers, scouts and things of that nature. Bringing the conquered bloodline into the family could add strength, or at least numbers of skinchanging offspring, to the Starks.

The Stark+Direwolf symbol of Winterfell seen in the crypts points to a long lasting relationship between beast and direwolf. Being the dominant clan in the North leads me to believe the power held by the Starks is enhanced by the Direwolves and the ability to skinchange in all that comes with that.

One small indicator, to me, is the confrontation between Summer and One Eye. The Stark/Direwolf warg overcame the non-Stark warg/wolf and made the pack his own. Seems to me this is a little nudge to the reader of the power in the relationship between man and wolf.

[butterbumps!]

I'm fine with disagreement - especially when the arguments are a bit nuanced. :) Broadly speaking, I'm not convinced that the Targaryen "kingship" is all that meaningful or important when it comes to Westeros. The timeline may not be as long as some report, but 300 years is hardly a drop in the bucket. So the typical discussions about kingship and inheritance seem a bit wrong-footed to me. Not that your approach is necessarily "typical." But to the extent we concern ourselves with the notion of a Targaryen political heir in the context of Westerosi history... I sort of suspect we're missing the point. (Just like many of the characters and factions in his story, in fact.) Martin's clearly working on a much larger scale, historically and mythically. And I'm not sure how much Rhaegar matters.

I agree with you and BC that Martin is writing for an attentive audience, and to that extent, R+L is "obvious."

But what you say about inheritance and "rightful heirs" is exactly why I think the twist resides there. That there's no such thing as a "true heir" in this series is not obvious.

It's probably fair to say that 99%+ posters on here see (though not necessarily believe) the clues for R+L=J. In my experience, though, the vast majority of those posters believe that this makes Jon the "true heir" to the IT, and that whether through a birth certificate in the Winterfell crypts, Jon's riding a dragon, or some sort of public revelation by Howland Reed, "King Jon Targ" will be a thing.

That there's no such thing as a "true heir" in this story is right in front of our noses, but subtle enough such that many, many people who put together R+L automatically assume this makes Jon the "rightful" king. That's how the "hidden price" trope works in all the other stories, after all. But, as we're discussing, in this story, power is an "illusion, a shadow," and the idea of an Aragorn simply doesn't work.

But I don't believe that the vast majority of those who recognize the R+L=J clues come to that conclusion. A cursory look at any "King Jon Targ" threads shows us that most readers who do recognize Jon as Rhaegar's son believe he should ascend the throne "rightfully."

All that said, I think our attitude toward R+L is very similar.

This is how I'm inclined to view Jon as well. Not only because of the potential implications of a mixed 'magical' heritage with Fire and Ice, but because of his own life experiences as a character; he has alternately been a bastard of a major noble family, a man of the Nights Watch, and even a Wildling for a spell. That, and Jon has created a network of useful allies, if you think about it: He's made a favorable impression on Tyrion, he's got Sam at the Citadel, Sansa (whose political star seems ascendant), Arya with the Faceless Men, Bran with the Singers, MAYBE Rickon in Winterfell someday, Tormund, Val, Mance, Stannis, etc.

Thus, he represents multiple legacies in blood - old Valyria, the First Men, the magic of the Singers - and brings multiple life experiences to bear. Perhaps the perfect mix of blood and experience to help bring the pieces back together again in Westeros.

I think we agree a lot on this, and yes, I think these points are extremely salient-- he's constantly standing between worlds and mediating both sides in so far as his authority allows.

I also think your other point is a good one-- that perhaps this isn't so much about ice versus fire, but magic and nature. Perhaps more technically, I lean toward the idea that this is all about humans versus humans, such that magic is abused by men for the purpose of domination and power, and therein lies the cause and solution to all of ASOIAF's problems. Magic is abused as a form of WMD historically, and it creates an unsustainable world when this happens.

That's the Night's Watch oath. Every member matches that.

I should have added an "lol" to that response. You'd said there wasn't a single line connecting Jon to fire, but that's a pretty big one, so I was being "captain obvious." I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. The balance stuff I wrote after that was really closer to my position of Jon's being a figure of reform/ mediation.

[Black Crow]

While I will agree with you on the female line being important, I have to say I am not so sure about the Starks obtaining skinchanging from the Warg King.

I think the Starks ability to skinchange helped them defeat the Warg King and the other clans, tribes and kingdoms of the north. Especially if they were using direwolves in battle (maybe even crows) to overcome the enemies' skinchangers, scouts and things of that nature. Bringing the conquered bloodline into the family could add strength, or at least numbers of skinchanging offspring, to the Starks.

The Stark+Direwolf symbol of Winterfell seen in the crypts points to a long lasting relationship between beast and direwolf. Being the dominant clan in the North leads me to believe the power held by the Starks is enhanced by the Direwolves and the ability to skinchange in all that comes with that.

One small indicator, to me, is the confrontation between Summer and One Eye. The Stark/Direwolf warg overcame the non-Stark warg/wolf and made the pack his own. Seems to me this is a little nudge to the reader of the power in the relationship between man and wolf.

Just by way of an aside there's mention in the World Book of wargs being more common than those skin-changing other animals. Reliability of this kind of information is obviously suspect, but it might suggest that the current position reflects a shortage of direwolves rather than wargs.

[cgf]

"Some take this to mean that [the First Keep in Winterfell] was built by the First Men, but Maester Kennet has definitively proved that it could not have existed before the arrival of the Andals since the First Men and the early Andals raised square towersand keeps. Round towers came sometime later."

Another tidbit that has me very curious about the real timeline. If Winterfell was built during/as-a-result-of the Long Night, and the Long Night was thousands of years before the andals arrived...

[Matthew.]

And considering the devastation, I wouldn't be surprised if what happened in Asshai was actually strongly linked to the actual cause of the Long Night, if not the direct cause. Wizards failing their spells on a truly epic scale for instance.

While I'm not 100% on board with trying to link the two events, it did strike me while reading about the Long Night that it sounded awfully close to the way I'd envision a volcanic winter.

[Mithras]

"Some take this to mean that [the First Keep in Winterfell] was built by the First Men, but Maester Kennet has definitively proved that it could not have existed before the arrival of the Andals since the First Men and the early Andals raised square towersand keeps. Round towers came sometime later."

Another tidbit that has me very curious about the real timeline. If Winterfell was built during/as-a-result-of the Long Night, and the Long Night was thousands of years before the andals arrived...

I don't think Kennet proved anything.

The Reeds decided that they would sleep in the kitchens, a stone octagon with a broken dome. It looked to offer better shelter than most of the other buildings, even though a crooked weirwood had burst up through the slate floor beside the huge central well, stretching slantwise toward the hole in the roof, its bone-white branches reaching for the sun. It was a queer kind of tree, skinnier than any other weirwood that Bran had ever seen and faceless as well, but it made him feel as if the old gods were with him here, at least.

The well leading to the Black Gate should be the oldest part of the Nightfort. The First Men built a stone octagon structure with a dome.

[DarkRose_9]

I don't think Kennet proved anything.

The Reeds decided that they would sleep in the kitchens, a stone octagon with a broken dome. It looked to offer better shelter than most of the other buildings, even though a crooked weirwood had burst up through the slate floor beside the huge central well, stretching slantwise toward the hole in the roof, its bone-white branches reaching for the sun. It was a queer kind of tree, skinnier than any other weirwood that Bran had ever seen and faceless as well, but it made him feel as if the old gods were with him here, at least.

The well leading to the Black Gate should be the oldest part of the Nightfort. The First Men built a stone octagon structure with a dome.

To take this line of thinking further - It's been a while since my art history classes, but I seem to recall that in Europe, some of the oldest structures are dome shaped, or at least rounded at the top.

ETA: Found my art history book (it pays to keep this stuff around ^_^ ).

The city of Jerico (c. 7000 BC) had a circuit wall, with circular towers. (Kleiner 25)

(I know this is the middle east, but it is one of the oldest places we have records of.)

NEWGRANGE "One of the most impressive megalithic monuments in Europe is also the oldest. The Megalithic tomb at Newgrange in Ireland...may have been constructed as early as 3200 BC, and is one of the oldest burial monuments in Europe. It takes the form of a passage grave...leading to a burial chamber, all covered by a great tumulus (earthen burial mound)." (Kleiner 27) It is an example of corbeled vaulting.

(The same chapter also mentions Stonehenge, which although it use rectangular shaped blocks, is arranged in a circular design.)

The treasury of Atreus (c. 1300-1250 BC) is a Mycenaean tholos tomb covered by an earthen mound. "The tholos is composed of a series of stone corbeled courses laid on a circular base to form a lofty dome" (Kleiner 93-94)

Kleiner, Fred S. Gardener's Art Through the Ages, 13th edition, vol. 1 Print. 2011

(Definition of corbeled vualting: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Corbel+vault)

I think what we have to remember is that the maesters are looking back on their history without the same methods of archaeology etc. that we have today, and thus may very well be mistaken in their analysis as to what types of buildings were built when, and by whom.

Given that our own history dates domed, circular and rounded topped buildings as some of the oldest European architectural structures, and given that Martin is an educated person with a deep interest in history, I don't find it unlikely at all that the maesters in his book are mistaken about such things from their limited perspective. Especially since there are example all over the world book of what the maesters think is the current state of Westeros, as opposed to what we (the book readers) know is the current state - per giants and magic, and greenseers etc.

TL;DR: The world book is beautiful and contains many helpful new bits of knowledge, but statements about the ancient history of Westeros should be taken with a grain of salt, especially as we make comparisons where possible (and/or plausible), to like things in our own world's history.

[cgf]

I don't think Kennet proved anything.

The Reeds decided that they would sleep in the kitchens, a stone octagon with a broken dome. It looked to offer better shelter than most of the other buildings, even though a crooked weirwood had burst up through the slate floor beside the huge central well, stretching slantwise toward the hole in the roof, its bone-white branches reaching for the sun. It was a queer kind of tree, skinnier than any other weirwood that Bran had ever seen and faceless as well, but it made him feel as if the old gods were with him here, at least.

The well leading to the Black Gate should be the oldest part of the Nightfort. The First Men built a stone octagon structure with a dome.

Which would seem to imply that the nightfort was also built around the time of the andal invaders if that architecture is truly a sign of their influence, placing their arrival much closer to, or maybe even during/at-the-start-of the long night.

[wolfmaid7]

Samhain blessings to all Heretics! Thank you Snowy :cheers:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Random question for anyone with the World book: what is that funny mouse hole looking icon that appears on all of the Seven Kingdom maps? It varies a bit on each map, but uses all the same pieces... not sure how else to describe it.

[wolfmaid7]

While I will agree with you on the female line being important, I have to say I am not so sure about the Starks obtaining skinchanging from the Warg King.

I think the Starks ability to skinchange helped them defeat the Warg King and the other clans, tribes and kingdoms of the north. Especially if they were using direwolves in battle (maybe even crows) to overcome the enemies' skinchangers, scouts and things of that nature. Bringing the conquered bloodline into the family could add strength, or at least numbers of skinchanging offspring, to the Starks.

The Stark+Direwolf symbol of Winterfell seen in the crypts points to a long lasting relationship between beast and direwolf. Being the dominant clan in the North leads me to believe the power held by the Starks is enhanced by the Direwolves and the ability to skinchange in all that comes with that.

One small indicator, to me, is the confrontation between Summer and One Eye. The Stark/Direwolf warg overcame the non-Stark warg/wolf and made the pack his own. Seems to me this is a little nudge to the reader of the power in the relationship between man and wolf.

That is a brillaint point.Minus the Warg thing which gave me an idea

Just by way of an aside there's mention in the World Book of wargs being more common than those skin-changing other animals. Reliability of this kind of information is obviously suspect, but it might suggest that the current position reflects a shortage of direwolves rather than wargs.

Seeing as this is come up again and i will add the WB excerpt.

"But all the tales agree that the most common skinchangers were men who controlled wolves

-even direwolves-and these had a special name among the wildlings: Wargs

The dashes and colon tells me who was thought to be Wargs-Those people with direwolves,which would make sense the Direwolf is the key to that relationship(no direwolf no warg). It would also make sense as to why most skinchangers "took" wolves. As ADance with Fagons pointed it out.If you were a Warg(Direwolf bonded) living among skinchangers,how might you use that? Convince them to take wolves,then take them and become alpha.Make what you do naturally a way of life for skinchangers who wanted to join that brotherhood.

It explains V6 statement of Haggon "teaching" him the way of the Warg,a way of life V6 didn't accept.

Brings me back to this question who is it that "really" took V6's pack....Bran or "Summer?"

[Black Crow]

I think it is a simple job to list and count the crypts of Winterfell and use it to guess the age of the castle and everything else.

“There are lower levels. Older. The lowest level is partly collapsed, I hear. I have never been down there.”

In theory yes, but I'd I'd expect there's something far more interesting down there.